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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 28, 2023 16:52:59 GMT -5
Wonder Woman was awesome in the 1940s.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2023 16:59:06 GMT -5
Wonder Woman was awesome in the 1940s.
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Post by zaku on Aug 28, 2023 17:07:57 GMT -5
Wonder Woman was awesome in the 1940s. You're right, maybe I should have specified better. I was referring to the Wonder Woman Silver Age and Bronze Age. But if you think about it, the initial stint under Marston lasted, like, a little over 6 years? So not even all the period that is usually associated with the Golden Age. Less then the 7% of her total publication history. I doubt that a lot of people remembered it when Perez's WW run started. And I think in the 80's reprinting weren't as common as they are now.
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Post by MWGallaher on Aug 28, 2023 18:45:41 GMT -5
DC seems to have been thinking they were looking at another 1949, that superheroes were on the way out, and starting to lean their superhero books toward other genres. The horror genre was the easiest fit, and we see not only books like CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN presenting themselves as horror comics, at least on the covers, but even titles like SUPERBOY would get monstered up in the early 70's (which was a factor in drawing young MW into the hobby). But we also see DC dressing up many of their comics as gothic thrillers, not just with HOUSE OF SECRETS, which had a streak of gothic-themed covers in the #88-#97 range, and its pair of straight-up gothic, DARK MANSION OF FORBIDDEN LOVE and SINISTER HOUSE OF SECRET LOVE, but even FLASH (#194), BATMAN (see #227 and #236 for examples) and DETECTIVE COMICS (#403, #414). WONDER WOMAN, with its presumed "girl appeal", was better suited to exploit the appeal of romance comics, which were probably outselling it at the time, and we can see that vibe in the emphasis on fashion, and with artist Mike Sekowsky bringing his romance comics style, not his superhero style.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 28, 2023 19:12:13 GMT -5
Welcome back rberman . I completed buying the tpb version of this series and plan to follow along with this thread.
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Post by rberman on Aug 28, 2023 20:12:55 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #179 “Wonder Woman’s Last Battle!” (December 1968)Creator credits appear on-page for the first time in this series. Marvel was doing this before DC, perhaps because writer-editor Stan Lee was building his own brand name. Writer: Dennis O’Neil Continuity and Pencils: Mike Sekowsky … what does “Continuity” mean? Ink: Dick Giordano Dramatis PersonaeWonder Woman and her alter ego, Diana Prince Hippolyta, Diana's mother, queen of Themiscyra Steve Trevor, Wonder Woman’s fugitive boyfriend The General, Steve’s boss I Ching, blind man, martial arts mentor The Story: As part of an undercover operation, Steve Trevor deliberately disgraces himself and goes on the run from his boss, The General. This consumes the first six pages, including a climactic splash page followed by a full page spread with a funky layout. Meanwhile, on Paradise Island, Hippolyta announced that Themiscyra must withdraw from Earth’s plane to another dimension of existence. And for some reason if Wonder Woman stays behind on Earth, she must surrender all her powers. So she quickly does so, making a nice ballet pose in the process. Behold her double-jointed ankle! Finding an apartment in New York City, she quickly acquires a Chinese mentor named I Ching. He teaches her martial arts, because apparently that wasn’t something she learned in her many years as an Amazon. (We’re told her Amazon background helps her to learn unusually quickly, though.) Sekowsky makes good use of border-free montage scenes throughout the issue: Steve Trevor crashes through the window of her makeshift dojo, gravely wounded. He has found the lair of the criminal mastermind Dr. Cyber! Diana and I Ching head to an old toy factory where they fight miniature fighter planes and a robot who looks like Frankenstein’s monster. The goons at the factory are defeated, but no Dr. Cyber. Where to look next? My Two Cents: Ian Fleming started writing novels about British superspy James “007” Bond in 1953, quickly spawning adaptations for television, comic books, radio drama, and full blown cinematic productions. The genre blossomed in the Cold War, with 1960s British television series The Avengers captivating audiences with dapper spy John Steed and his slinky karate-chopping sidekicks Cathy Gale, Emma Peel, and Tara King. If this new martial arts version of Wonder Woman has a clearer direct antecedent than Emma Peel, I don’t know it, unless it’s Stefanie Powers playing April Dancer, “The Girl from U.N.C.L.E.” in an American series of the same spirit. Was there a Western martial arts craze in the 1960s? I think of that as something that started with Bruce Lee’s posthumous star turn in Enter the Dragon (1973). But Jim Shooter had introduced Karate Kid to the Legion of Super-Heroes in 1966, and O’Neil is awfully eager to put karate terminology in Wonder Woman’s mouth in this issue, suggesting it was deemed a draw for readers as well. The departure of Themyscira happens shockingly quickly; O’Neil has no interest in making it an actual story, just a box that needs to get checked as part of Diana’s rapid transformation into Emma Peel. She mentions offhandedly that her invisible jet will “follow the island into oblivion” as soon as she returns to Man’s World. Last issue seemed to be in San Francisco, but this issue specifically takes place in New York City, on the Lower East Side. Diana says she has to find a place to live. Why is that? It’s not as if she was commuting from Themiscyra every day until now. She already had a job and an apartment in the Washington DC area as recently as issue #176. The new creative team was not paying close attention to the scenario established by their predecessors. But the basic premise (single gal moves to the big city and looks for a job and a place to live) seems very “1960s.” Diana needs employment for money as well, so she appears not to be in the military any more, though she was wearing her military uniform when she visited Steve Trevor in prison in the previous issue. When did she quit her day job? Seems like we missed an important story beat in the rush to make her a freelance karate queen. Fashion Plate: Diana has five ensembles: Her Wonder Woman suit, a Themiscyra halter top and skirt, a purple dress with giant dangling necklace medallion, a karate gi, and a green dress with matching thigh-high boots. Sexual Politics: In order to justify the karate lingo, Wonder Woman needed an Asian connection, hence the introduction of I Ching, whose name comes from a 3,000-year-old Chinese divination text. What precedents does “wizened zen mentor” have in Western fiction? I know there were many after this, from Stick in Daredevil comics to Yoda in Star Wars. Such a character is super helpful from a writing perspective. He can deliver exposition. He can have vaguely defined supernatural abilities. He can have convenient personal ties to other elements of stories that arise later. Unfortunately, he also reduces Wonder Woman’s agency by becoming the go-to solution for so many obstacles that arise during a story. Moreso when he’s a Daredevil-style blind man whose blindness poses absolutely no problem for his combat prowess. And for issue after issue, she will have to give him credit for her kung fu prowess in case new readers wonder why she’s karate chopping. Does She Cry? Once in her mother’s arms, once flying away from Themiscyra, and three consecutive panels as Steve Trevor gets first aid and is taken to the hospital. She’s also crying on the cover as she says goodbye to Themiscyra, her costume and lasso, and all things Amazonian. Body Count: None, though Steve Trevor is still in intensive care at the end of the issue. This is also the second issue in a row with a "Steve's in big trouble" plot. Diana and I Ching beat up some goons at the factory, and she decapitates the Frankenstein monster, showing the enduring popularity of the monster’s 1935 film series. It also shows the loosening of the Comics Code that such a scary creature was permitted. He had appeared in Detective Comics #135 (1948) but was rarely seen until the early 1970s Comics Code revision.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 28, 2023 20:23:50 GMT -5
Wonder Woman, in the 40s, is pretty darn good, with whimsical stories, great adventures and funny moments. Then, you add the kink to it and it becomes a weird, wild read; but, never boring. Once they stripped away the fantasy approach, the weirdness and kink, they stripped away most of what made her standout, including the more aspirational aspects of Marston's stories. They had layers to them, fairy tale adventures for the kids, psycho-sexual explorations for the more sophisticated, and plenty of social commentary, if you look closely enough.
By the 50s, she is just another costumed adventurer, having bizarre adventures against Communist villains and other oddities, but her personality has been stripped of anything that made her unique, in the first place. By the 60s it has worn very thin and it was on life support before Denny O'Neil & Mike Sekowsky shake it up. Noted sci-fi author Samuel R Delaney adds to things, during this period and the stories take on more sophisticated subjects. Then, they dump it to put her back in costume, strip away anything interesting from that period, and go back on life support. The tv show kept it on the stands and they kicked her back to WW2, for some of it, to match the series, during the first series. Roy Thomas was trying to shake it up; but, I really don't think he was the guy for it.
George Perez latched onto the interesting mythological aspects, so he could build upon that and then returned her to the role of an ambassador to an outside world she had never experienced. Roy was doing a bit of that; but, he had continuity working against him as Wonder Woman was no longer a fish out of water. George could re-establish that. He was able to play around, a bit, with the psychological aspects, without the kink, though it got slipped in once in a while, though mostly just bondage covers, now and then. I suspect he would have been happy to add more, if he could have, given his video directorial efforts.
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Post by MDG on Aug 28, 2023 20:38:19 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #179 “Wonder Woman’s Last Battle!” (December 1968)Creator credits appear on-page for the first time in this series. Marvel was doing this before DC, perhaps because writer-editor Stan Lee was building his own brand name. Writer: Dennis O’Neil Continuity and Pencils: Mike Sekowsky … what does “Continuity” mean? Ink: Dick Giordano In this case, I believe "continuity" means that Sekowsky laid out the story and O'Neil added the words to that. It doesn't make clear whether they collaborated on the plot.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 28, 2023 20:39:39 GMT -5
Wonder Woman Etta Candy was awesome in the 1940s. Fixed that for you Hoosier. I agree... 40s Sensational Comics are a joy... so bad they're amazing.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 28, 2023 21:11:39 GMT -5
Etta Candy is definitely one of the reasons that 1940s Wonder Woman is awesome.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 28, 2023 21:42:20 GMT -5
Wonder Woman #179 “Wonder Woman’s Last Battle!” (December 1968)................. My Two Cents: Ian Fleming started writing novels about British superspy James “007” Bond in 1953, quickly spawning adaptations for television, comic books, radio drama, and full blown cinematic productions. The genre blossomed in the Cold War, with 1960s British television series The Avengers captivating audiences with dapper spy John Steed and his slinky karate-chopping sidekicks Cathy Gale, Emma Peel, and Tara King. If this new martial arts version of Wonder Woman has a clearer direct antecedent than Emma Peel, I don’t know it, unless it’s Stefanie Powers playing April Dancer, “The Girl from U.N.C.L.E.” in an American series of the same spirit.
Was there a Western martial arts craze in the 1960s? I think of that as something that started with Bruce Lee’s posthumous star turn in Enter the Dragon (1973). But Jim Shooter had introduced Karate Kid to the Legion of Super-Heroes in 1966, and O’Neil is awfully eager to put karate terminology in Wonder Woman’s mouth in this issue, suggesting it was deemed a draw for readers as well.
In regards to inspirations, the only American one you could cite is Honey West, who debuted on Burke's Law, in 1965, then had her own series, from 1965-66, lasting one season. The character is a female private investigator, who first appeared in a series of novels, by Gloria and Forrest Fickling (writing as GG Fickling), which debuted in 1957, the first female private detective in mystery fiction (rather than an amateur, like Miss Marple). You also had the British comic strip Modesty Blaise, which spawned the 1966 camp film, starring Monica Vitti and Terrence Stamp. The comic strip debuted in 1963. Modesty is an expert in hand-to-hand combat, utilizing techniques from judo, karate, defendu (a hand-to-hand combat style taught to British commandos and the SOE and OSS, during WW2, by William Fairbair, an ex-Shanghai police officer, with extensive experience in street fighting there) and other disciplines, while partner Willie Garvin is an expert muay thai fighter, before she meets him. Denny O'Neil has said that Emma Peel was the direct inspiration and I Ching was meant to be her Steed, crossed with a Merlin-like mentor. O'Neil is also responsible for the martial arts tropes and inaccuracies. The martial arts craze was launched with the English dubbed release of 5 Fingers of Death (original title King Boxer), in 1973 (after a 1972 debut, in Hong Kong). O'Neil also co-created Richard Dragon, with cartoonist James Berry, in the novel Kung Fu Master Richard Dragon: Dragon's Fists, in 1974. O'Neil had studied some martial arts and put it in several stories he wrote, including Batman, and some of his Charlton work, as Sergius O'Shaunnessy. There were martial arts appearing in some 60s films and tv series, starting with Bruce Lee, as Kato, in the Green Hornet tv series, in 1966. You also had both Oddjob and Pussy Galore, in Goldfinger, in 1964. Lee was a stunt coordinator for the Matt Helm film (with Dean Martin) The Wrecking Crew, in 1968. You Only Live Twice also featured ninjas, kendo techniques and other martial arts techniques. The Kurosawa films were big in the west, presenting samurai traditions of kendo, iado and judo and judo had been depicted infilms as early as the 1930s (James Cagney, who studied judo, has a judo-laced fight in 13 Rue Madeline, about OSS agents in occupied territory). So, Bruce Lee wasn't the only source, but he and 5 Fingers of Death (and other Shaw bros kung fu movies) launched the martial arts craze of the early-mid 70s. Martial arts had been part of the Avengers starting at least with Cathy Gale, as that is where Honor Blackman got her initial training, from the stunt team. They later hired a female stunt performer, to double Diana Rigg, named Cyd Child, who was a female judo champion, and who went on to do stunts in The Pink Panther Strikes Again and coordinated the stunts on The New Avengers revival, with Joanna Lumley and Gareth Hunt joining Patrick Macnee. Where O'Neil really missed the boat is that he could have stuck with Diana's mythical past, as the ancient Greeks had their own fighting system, Pankration. It was a mixture of boxing and wrestling, utilizing joint locks for submissions, as well as chokes and other "hooks". Pankration bouts were part of the ancient Olympics, with competitors dying in competition. A famous match ended with the victor dying from the effects of a chokehold, while the loser survived, with a broken ankle. The survivor had his opponent in a chokehold, but had his legs wrapped together around the torso of the other man. The opponent then hooked his own leg over the survivor's ankles and pressed down on them, using the opponents own ankle as a fulcrum, and snapped the joint and the survivor submitted, fron the intense pain. He broke the choke hold and his opponent was declared the victor, but he then fainted and died, from loss of oxygen to the brain. Greco-Roman wrestling has been part of the modern Olympics, since the beginning and early pro wrestling champion George Hackenschmidt was a noted Greco-Roman specialist, but he ran afoul of catch-as-catch can wrestler Frank Gotch and a sparring partner, named Ad Santell, who deliberately injured him in a sparring match, before Hackenschmidt was to face Gotch, to determine a World Champion, in 1905. Pankration saw a modern revival, in the 70s, thanks to Greek-American wrestler and martial artist Jim Arvinitis. Arvinitis was trained as a freestyle wrestler, but came in contact with pro wrestlers, like Lou Thesz and Brunio Sammartino, who would come to his father's Greek restaurant. He would talk wrestling holds with them and started learning "catch" wrestling (catch-as-catch-can), from which amateur freestyle wrestling evolved. he also studied muay thai, savate and combat judo. He studied old texts that described Pankration and developed a modern version, mixing in elements of the other arts he studied, with the traditional Greek techniques. The problem for it appearing here is that Arvinitis didn't popularize what he was doing until 1973, when he was interviewed for Black Belt magazine and then wrote his own books and made training videos, later. Diana could have been just as formidable, with the ancient Mediterranean techniques, as there are some theories that such things came to Asia with Alexander's army. regardless, ancient Egypt had hieroglyphs depicting ancient wrestling holds and stories of bouts and the Persians were noted for their wrestling, which was also combined with Thai kickboxing, by French sailors, who founded savate. The Persian wrestling elements were slowly excised, as it evolved from street fighting to sport, leaving the kick-boxing aspects. Diana, as a warrior, would have been trained to use a sword, bow & arrow, spear, and other pole arms, as well as boxing and wrestling and probably Pankration, if you consider the Amazons as part of Greek martial heritage.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 28, 2023 22:14:47 GMT -5
ps The Martial arts fads in America progress something like this: boxing and catch wrestling matches are promoted in the late 1800s and boxing and wrestling gyms spring up in major cities, by at least the turn of the century. Judo starts appearing in fiction and in demonstrations around the 1930s and makes appearances in some movie series, like Mr Moto. Post-WW2, after the American occupation, you start getting westerners teaching karate and it starts appearing in fiction and entertainment, after demonstrations and tournaments, through the 1960s and into the 70s. By the late 1950s you are hearing about "karate chops, " instead of "judo chops" (judo doesn't teach a chopping technique; Westerners were only vaguely aware of judo and didn't know the difference). Bruce Lee utilizes kung fu styles (he trained in wing chung style kung fu and called his style Jun Fan Gung Fu (gung and kung were used interchangeably), which mixed his real name, Lee Jun-Fan and gung fu (or kung fu, though I have heard that gung is more phonetically correct, though the term means "mastery of an art," not martial art) and the importation of the Shaw Bros martial arts films, coupled with Lee's exposure on Green Hornet and Longstreet (starring James Franciscus, as a blind detective, taught martial arts by Lee) and Lees own films, in Hong Kong, led to the explosion in the US. That led to the Kung Fu tv series, with David Carridine and the various films. That led to some karate films, from Japan, being imported, at the same time, like Sonny Chiba's Streetfighter series and his trilogy of films based on the life of his trainer, Mas Oyama (who founded the Kyokushin style of karate). Then, the 80s brought the ninja craze and the 90s brought Mixed Martial Arts, with the Ultimate Fighting Championship, though part of the success of it was due to a return of professional catch-style wrestling, in Japan, from pro wrestlers trained in it by Karl Gotch & Billy Robinson (who were both trained at O'Riley's Gym, in Wigan, known as The Snakepit, which taught traditional catch wrestling, including submission holds), as well as vale tudo competitions, in Brazil, where the Gracie family demonstrated their version of jiu jitsu (after being trained by Japanese champion, Masahiko Kimura), as well as luta livre (Brazilian catch wrestling). So, everything kind of went full circle.
You also had other martial arts styles mixing in with popular entertainment, mostly in the 70s, during the kung fu craze. The Billy Jack films featured Korean hapkido techniques, taught and stunt co-ordinated by Bong Soo Han, who appears in the second film, The Trial of Billy Jack. African-American martial artist and movie star Jim Kelly (he played Williams, in Enter the Dragon) used kempo (chinese karate) techniques, popularized in the martial arts world by Ed Parker, who appeared as an assassin in The Revenge of the Pink Panther. Sam Peckinpah directed the film The Killer Elite, which features James Caan learning karate and stick fighting techniques, as part of his physical rehabilitation, after being shot in the knee by his partner, and then protecting a diplomat from ninja assassins. The Lethal Weapons films have depicted a mixture of styles. The first film climaxes with a fight between Mel Gibson and Gary Busey, that features Gracie Jiujitsu (Rorion Gracie acted as a fight consultant, before starting the UFC), "jailhouse rock" (a street fighting style, developed in US prisons) and karate. The second film features a South African killer who uses savate, in the climactic fight, and then the third film features a mixture of techniques in a friendly sparring scene, between Gibson and Rene Russo. The 4th featured Jet Li and his theatrical wuxia (wu-shu, the more correct term for "martial arts", in Chinese dialects).
So, at the time of this, karate and judo were in vogue, in entertainment and in dojos and competitions. Kung fu was growing and would explode in the early 70s.
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Post by Calidore on Aug 29, 2023 8:13:30 GMT -5
Answers that lead to more questions: I was curious what "nakadate ippon kin zuki" punch meant, so I gave it to Google Translate, which returned "I like one piece of gold".
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Post by rberman on Aug 29, 2023 9:50:10 GMT -5
Answers that lead to more questions: I was curious what "nakadate ippon kin zuki" punch meant, so I gave it to Google Translate, which returned "I like one piece of gold". I found this: nakadate-ippon-ken middle finger, one-knuckle fist ippon-ken-zuki one-knuckle fist, second knuckle protruding Sure enough, Sekowsky drew her knuckle protruding.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 29, 2023 11:57:40 GMT -5
DC seems to have been thinking they were looking at another 1949, that superheroes were on the way out, and starting to lean their superhero books toward other genres. In Wonder Woman's case, perhaps DC felt there was no way to bring WW up to the standards of the late 60s culture without getting rid of the star-spangled underwear-wearing image, including her original personality. Marvel's evolving female characters from the 60s, were written in such a way that their troubled personalities could serve as a narrative platform to change from the earlier incarnation with ease (e.g., Black Widow). In no small way influenced by the gothic horror sensation of the late 60s--the Dark Shadows soap opera, which effectively brought this kind of horror into the modern day. Dark Shadows had been such a pop-culture phenomenon (and merchandising bonanza for Dan Curtis Productions & ABC), that it made that kind of horror very familiar to audiences who previously never paid much attention to the genre. DC's anthology and/or try-out titles making hard, night-and-day content shifts (such as those you listed, along with Unexpected, House of Mystery, and newcomers such as Secrets of Sinister House, The Witching Hour and Ghosts) was a response to the rise in gothic horror being so popularized, and being well-aware of the rise of Warren's horror titles. As you pointed out, some superhero titles got in on the act, notably the original Teen Titans title's last few issues (#41 & #43, for example), where that kind storytelling had blended with the superhero. That said, Wonder Woman seemed to take the espionage / Women's Liberation path, rather than horror over the course of the "All-New" period.
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