|
Post by codystarbuck on Apr 10, 2023 20:54:20 GMT -5
I have nothing against the idea of sports comics but I haven't seen many good ones. I remember liking some of the car racing comics from the late 1960s and early '70s as a kid, e.g. Hot Wheels, but haven't seen them since then so no idea how I'd like them now - though I imagine that Alec Toth's art would make Hot Wheels at least readable. And I read Joe Palooka in our local newspaper, The Western Star, and still remember some of the story-lines in a vague manner, but I think that was more because I was interested in boxing from an early age and would have been drawn to anything related to it, good or bad. From memory, I suspect it wasn't really a very good strip, at least at that point of its existence. I've never seen the earlier years, maybe I should give them a look, come to think of it. I'm curious about Michel Vaillant and will probably give it a try one of these days but I must admit that from the few samples I've seen the artwork looks a little pedestrian to me, so I don't have high hopes that I'll really love it. Frazetta's Johnny Comet sure looked great but I don't recall being impressed by the story one way or the other when I read it back in the 1990s. I agree with Supercat that in theory hockey should make a good subject for a sports comic because of the visual aspect, but I can't recall seeing anything apart from the futuristic SF version in one of Enki Bilal's Nikopol books. Charlton had some good racing comics, especially those done by Jack Keller. Dick Giordano did a few, early in his career. The Speed Racer cartoon originated in a manga, Mach Go-Go-Go (Go is 5, in Japanese, so it translates as Mach 5, Go, Go). Michel Valiant has been around for over 60 years, so it has something going for it. The original stories, from creator Jean Graton have a more detailed drawing style, as Graton was meticulous to bring an air of authenticity. Actual drivers and racing teams were depicted and stories were set on real race courses. I still think that an artist who truly loves the sport and stories built around the characters, could be fantastic. I would point to Jaime Hernandez' wrestling stories, in Love & Rockets. You can tell he was a fan as the moves are authentic and he stages the action well, giving you the feel of watching a real match, with just the highlights to accentuate things. He went to town with the stuff in his mini, Whoa, Nellie! (The catch phrase of Dick Lane, longtime announcer of Los Angeles pro wrestling, which Los Bros grew up with), with Xochitl & Gina Bravo as a tag-team and their home lives, training and work to try to gain success. It kind of blurs the lines of kayfabe and reality, which is what works best with pro wrestling anyway. Most people always knew it was a staged exhibition; but, the attention to realism and the presentation of such was more effective, much like the magician keeping the secrets of the illusion. Too much modern stuff doesn't even try for logic in the action and it ends up looking more like an acrobatic routine than a movie fight. I think you could have done something like ABC's Wide World of Sports, as an anthology comic, in the 70s. These days, you could, with some effort; but, I think it would have been supported better in the 60s and 70s. Rotate the sports, as they did, so you don't have the sameness of a one sport series, focus on the characters on both sides, leading to the big competition, whatever it is.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 10, 2023 21:03:22 GMT -5
There's no tension.. you know the main character is going to progress/win in the end, and most long term sports comics are a series of levels the character progresses through, so it typically quite obvious which games/events will be won and which will be lost. I also find it incredibly annoying when they twist the rules or try to be tricky to give the main character an extra challenge. I fully realize the appeal is the journey/character, but that just doesn't interest me. There are plenty of real life sports players that have interesting journeys/character that I can read.... Superheroes, not so much. I can enjoy a good sports comedy (I love Major League, and Bad News Bears is fun) but otherwise,no. Thanks for explaining. I will mention that in the Japanese sports comics, there are a number of examples where the main characters do not win in the end (if "winning" is measured by winning in a particular sports tournament, game, etc). I am not sure if I should post them due to spoilers, though.
To me I think sports comics thrive on tension, and I believe the large audience they garner accurately reflects tension as being a huge part of their appeal. But, I understand not caring for the subject matter. It is just when I think of sports comics, one of the first things I think of is "intensity". Even in, say, a comic about the strategy board game Go (if including "mind sports").
This is rambling, but at times I wish some superhero comics would be injected with the same kind of intensity and emotional tension I see in sports manga.
really? Interesting.. To each their own. I read a bit of Hikuro No go (I think that's the title)... it was super boring, imo. It was clear in the beginning who was going to win which games/matches/whatever they're called, leaving only very YA-ish drama, which I hate. I've flipped through Slam Dunk a couple times.... didn't seem like the artist actually knew how the the game worked. Maybe you have to not be a fan of the actual sport? I dunno.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 10, 2023 21:05:46 GMT -5
The more I think about it, I would actually LOVE some more historical based comic books about sports. If they had a "Life of Reggie Jackson" comic book back when I was a kid, I would have picked that up in a heart beat. And I'm thinking Gold Key type straight shooter stuff, nothing too sensationalized. I'd love "Baseball Thought the Decades" or something of that nature. I picked up a few of those at Savers a while back. I can't remember the publisher, but that had the Babe, Ted Williams, Bo Jackson, and one other think. They are bios, and not very good ones... very general and a few actual factual errors. The art was pretty cool though I would heartily recommend the roberto Clemente one that came out a couple years ago (called '21') and the Muhammad Ali one from around the same time, both were fantastic.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Apr 10, 2023 21:19:54 GMT -5
Go!! Southern Ice Hockey Club is a Japanese ice hockey manga with a twist: The series follows Getto Rando, who has been living in Canada and playing hockey there since he was ten. However, he also earned himself a very long suspension due to cheating and thus was more or less forced to return to Japan where he was recruited by Hamatsu High School in Kyushu, even though ice hockey is not popular in southern Japan and the school only has a roller hockey rink.
It was popular enough to run for five years and was collected in 23 tankoban volumes. It's an early 90s shonen manga, so you can imagine the kind of tropes it contains, but I like older manga so I can imagine it being a fun series. I'm pretty sure there's been a manga for every sport under the sun. There's even a manga about kabaddi, which is a sport I'd never heard of until a few years ago. I might have a look at that just out of curiosity.
When I saw the Witches of the Orient documentary at the movie theatre a year or so back I learned that the Japanese Women's Volleyball team that won world championships and Olympic Gold in the 1960s were so popular that they spawned an entire sub-genre of volleyball cartoons and (I think) comics too.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Apr 10, 2023 21:24:06 GMT -5
I have nothing against the idea of sports comics but I haven't seen many good ones. I remember liking some of the car racing comics from the late 1960s and early '70s as a kid, e.g. Hot Wheels, but haven't seen them since then so no idea how I'd like them now - though I imagine that Alec Toth's art would make Hot Wheels at least readable. And I read Joe Palooka in our local newspaper, The Western Star, and still remember some of the story-lines in a vague manner, but I think that was more because I was interested in boxing from an early age and would have been drawn to anything related to it, good or bad. From memory, I suspect it wasn't really a very good strip, at least at that point of its existence. I've never seen the earlier years, maybe I should give them a look, come to think of it. I'm curious about Michel Vaillant and will probably give it a try one of these days but I must admit that from the few samples I've seen the artwork looks a little pedestrian to me, so I don't have high hopes that I'll really love it. Frazetta's Johnny Comet sure looked great but I don't recall being impressed by the story one way or the other when I read it back in the 1990s. I agree with Supercat that in theory hockey should make a good subject for a sports comic because of the visual aspect, but I can't recall seeing anything apart from the futuristic SF version in one of Enki Bilal's Nikopol books. Charlton had some good racing comics, especially those done by Jack Keller. Dick Giordano did a few, early in his career. The Speed Racer cartoon originated in a manga, Mach Go-Go-Go (Go is 5, in Japanese, so it translates as Mach 5, Go, Go). Michel Valiant has been around for over 60 years, so it has something going for it. The original stories, from creator Jean Graton have a more detailed drawing style, as Graton was meticulous to bring an air of authenticity. Actual drivers and racing teams were depicted and stories were set on real race courses. I still think that an artist who truly loves the sport and stories built around the characters, could be fantastic. I would point to Jaime Hernandez' wrestling stories, in Love & Rockets. You can tell he was a fan as the moves are authentic and he stages the action well, giving you the feel of watching a real match, with just the highlights to accentuate things. He went to town with the stuff in his mini, Whoa, Nellie! (The catch phrase of Dick Lane, longtime announcer of Los Angeles pro wrestling, which Los Bros grew up with), with Xochitl & Gina Bravo as a tag-team and their home lives, training and work to try to gain success. It kind of blurs the lines of kayfabe and reality, which is what works best with pro wrestling anyway. Most people always knew it was a staged exhibition; but, the attention to realism and the presentation of such was more effective, much like the magician keeping the secrets of the illusion. Too much modern stuff doesn't even try for logic in the action and it ends up looking more like an acrobatic routine than a movie fight. I think you could have done something like ABC's Wide World of Sports, as an anthology comic, in the 70s. These days, you could, with some effort; but, I think it would have been supported better in the 60s and 70s. Rotate the sports, as they did, so you don't have the sameness of a one sport series, focus on the characters on both sides, leading to the big competition, whatever it is.
Much as I admire their athletic ability, I don't see pro wrestling as a sport, really, more like a troupe of acrobats acting out stories for the audience. I do like Jaime Hernandez's wrestling stories, though.
|
|
|
Post by arfetto on Apr 10, 2023 22:19:06 GMT -5
really? Interesting.. To each their own. I read a bit of Hikuro No go (I think that's the title)... it was super boring, imo. It was clear in the beginning who was going to win which games/matches/whatever they're called, leaving only very YA-ish drama, which I hate. I've flipped through Slam Dunk a couple times.... didn't seem like the artist actually knew how the the game worked. Maybe you have to not be a fan of the actual sport? I dunno.
I love Go (which I play often) and basketball (which I played through high school, I am the offspring of a basketball coach) so nope. Slam Dunk is an amazing comic to me, beautiful stuff. Also, I wanted to resist spoilers but don't know how to add a spoiler tag here, but they are old comics now anyway...the main character loses at the end of HnG and the main team loses the tournament at the end of Slam Dunk.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Apr 10, 2023 22:38:00 GMT -5
Charlton had some good racing comics, especially those done by Jack Keller. Dick Giordano did a few, early in his career. The Speed Racer cartoon originated in a manga, Mach Go-Go-Go (Go is 5, in Japanese, so it translates as Mach 5, Go, Go). Michel Valiant has been around for over 60 years, so it has something going for it. The original stories, from creator Jean Graton have a more detailed drawing style, as Graton was meticulous to bring an air of authenticity. Actual drivers and racing teams were depicted and stories were set on real race courses. I still think that an artist who truly loves the sport and stories built around the characters, could be fantastic. I would point to Jaime Hernandez' wrestling stories, in Love & Rockets. You can tell he was a fan as the moves are authentic and he stages the action well, giving you the feel of watching a real match, with just the highlights to accentuate things. He went to town with the stuff in his mini, Whoa, Nellie! (The catch phrase of Dick Lane, longtime announcer of Los Angeles pro wrestling, which Los Bros grew up with), with Xochitl & Gina Bravo as a tag-team and their home lives, training and work to try to gain success. It kind of blurs the lines of kayfabe and reality, which is what works best with pro wrestling anyway. Most people always knew it was a staged exhibition; but, the attention to realism and the presentation of such was more effective, much like the magician keeping the secrets of the illusion. Too much modern stuff doesn't even try for logic in the action and it ends up looking more like an acrobatic routine than a movie fight. I think you could have done something like ABC's Wide World of Sports, as an anthology comic, in the 70s. These days, you could, with some effort; but, I think it would have been supported better in the 60s and 70s. Rotate the sports, as they did, so you don't have the sameness of a one sport series, focus on the characters on both sides, leading to the big competition, whatever it is.
Much as I admire their athletic ability, I don't see pro wrestling as a sport, really, more like a troupe of acrobats acting out stories for the audience. I do like Jaime Hernandez's wrestling stories, though.
But it is storytelling through an athletic endeavor, which is what a sport comic would be. It shares the same basic storytelling tools as comic books, apart from illustration. Boxing to a similar extent, except you don't have deliberate storylines in boxing, though the promotion of the fight tries to create it. Boxing is as worked as wrestling, if only through how the bouts are manipulated to draw a box office, with some fighters denied title shots in favor of lesser fighters, for a specific story. There is also the corruption of promotion, through guys like Don King, who own fight contracts for the guys they promote. If you aren't in good with them, you don't get a fight, no matter what your record is. They manipulate the governing bodies, who need the inflow of cash to continue to promote the lesser ranks, elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by commond on Apr 10, 2023 23:33:51 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining. I will mention that in the Japanese sports comics, there are a number of examples where the main characters do not win in the end (if "winning" is measured by winning in a particular sports tournament, game, etc). I am not sure if I should post them due to spoilers, though.
To me I think sports comics thrive on tension, and I believe the large audience they garner accurately reflects tension as being a huge part of their appeal. But, I understand not caring for the subject matter. It is just when I think of sports comics, one of the first things I think of is "intensity". Even in, say, a comic about the strategy board game Go (if including "mind sports").
This is rambling, but at times I wish some superhero comics would be injected with the same kind of intensity and emotional tension I see in sports manga.
really? Interesting.. To each their own. I read a bit of Hikuro No go (I think that's the title)... it was super boring, imo. It was clear in the beginning who was going to win which games/matches/whatever they're called, leaving only very YA-ish drama, which I hate. I've flipped through Slam Dunk a couple times.... didn't seem like the artist actually knew how the the game worked. Maybe you have to not be a fan of the actual sport? I dunno. Inoue played basketball in high school and is a huge fan of the sport to the extent that he created a scholarship for Japanese kids trying to make it to college in the States. He tried to include details in the manga about how it feels to shoot and handle the ball. He also happens to be one of the greatest comic book artists of all time.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 11, 2023 7:01:18 GMT -5
I definitely liked Vagabond.... I'm not sure about greatest all time (I'd pick Tezuka, KOjima and maybe the person who draws Vinland Saga as better). Your passion is definitely intriguing. Maybe I'll see if the library has the first couple.
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Apr 11, 2023 8:55:34 GMT -5
A local entrepreneur tried to start up a line of sports comics in the 90s, starting w/ Mickey Mantle. Tom Peyer wrote it, with art by Joe Sinnott (who loved baseball and would make appearances at minor league games throwing out the first pitch) and John Tartaglione.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 11, 2023 17:15:51 GMT -5
So the library system does indeed have Slam Dunk, so I ordered the first couple.. I'll report back
|
|
|
Post by james on Apr 14, 2023 11:00:22 GMT -5
No interest in Sports Comics. Sports comics are like Sports Movies good ones are so few and far between. Especially when it comes to my favorite sport, football.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2023 7:19:05 GMT -5
Greatest sports comic cover ever:
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,051
|
Post by Confessor on Apr 16, 2023 9:04:37 GMT -5
Greatest sports comic cover ever: That's like saying, "nicest turd in the bucket". (I kid, I kid...)
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Apr 17, 2023 22:22:30 GMT -5
If you do an image search for "Denis Sire" + "race cars", or something along those lines, you'll see some beautiful images that capture not only the aesthetic allure of vintage race car designs but also a vivid sense of motion and speed. But many of them are illustrations rather than sequential art from a comic book or B-D page.
|
|