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Post by Hoosier X on May 31, 2014 21:59:12 GMT -5
I love the way Cage just pushes his way into the Baxter Building and asks if he can borrow a rocket so he can get to Latveria really fast and Reed just goes "OK."
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jun 1, 2014 11:03:13 GMT -5
I love the way Cage just pushes his way into the Baxter Building and asks if he can borrow a rocket so he can get to Latveria really fast and Reed just goes "OK." Thats because Reed is still trying to work off that bad karma he created in FF#1 when he broke into a government facility and stole a rocket ship.And he didn't ask to borrow it. And he brought it back damaged and insurance companies refused to cover the expense leaving American taxpayers to foot the bill.And he's responsible for the soldiers on guard at that facility being disciplined and having a blackmark on their records and the Head of Security being summarily fired because a scapegoat had to be found and that security chief could never find a decent job again leading to alcoholism and spousal abuse and their children growing up on the wrong side of the tracks. Yeah,Reed owes a lot of people rockets,he owes the American public rockets. I think Luke Cage should barge into the Baxter building once a month and liberate a rocket or two in the name of the people. Right On Luke
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Post by tolworthy on Jun 7, 2014 11:30:30 GMT -5
I know this is a classic comics board, but is it OK to talk about new comics in terms of old comics? I just finished Fantastic Four (2014 edition) issue 4. It struck me that you could make the entire comic from cutting up old issues of the FF. Possibly that is just what the writer did.
This is more obvious in the next issue, judging by online reviews: FF 5 is basically a cut and paste of the past (or at least of the boneless retcon version). This lack of imagination is not unique to the new writer: it is true of pretty much every issue of the past 25 years. I choose the new issue 4 because it's the one I received this morning. Let us see where every page came from.
You don't need to read the new issue to follow this post. My point is that you have already read it, probably a hundred times over.
Page 1 is a text review of the past.
p 2: Johnny is de-powered. This is from FF39 (all numbers are from memory and may be 1 or 2 issues off). Back then all the team lost their powers. That's why Reed created the flaming suit for Johnny, but they seem to have forgotten that. When they cut out the problem from FF 39 the solution must have fallen on the floor.
Johnny's feelings here are Ben's feelings from FF 171 when the same thing happened to him.
p.3-4 (top half): Ben faces the wrecking ball guy. This is from circa FF299.
p.3-4 (bottom half: Ben is immediately beaten. This is from every issue since the 1990s: Ben's role is to be beaten in order to demonstrate the power of the new guys. TVTropes refers to this as the Whorf effect.
p.5 The Frightful Four have a secret master who is more intelligent and more powerful. This is from circa 321-333: Aron the rogue Watcher secretly backs the Frightful Four. (There is some speculation on the boards that it's Aron again this time.)
p.6 New villain is a child replacement for the old villain, with the same powers. Byrne did this better with Kristof, adopted son of Doom.
p.7 New version is sexy and female, thrusting out her booty. This is from Byrne's sexing up of She-Hulk (see FF 275). Though this sexy female version is a teenager so thankfully the booty thrusting is a little restrained and covered up. But still, imagine a male character in that pose. The completely impractical costume - half heavy duty military, half completely exposed - is a 1990s trope that Simonson mocked on the cover of 343.
p.8 Destroying New York: this is a post 1990 trope for the FF (though used in other titles before that) so I can't give issue numbers offhand, but suffice to say, it's ooooooooooooooold.
Regarding sexy costumes, on this page Sue has not just a booty thrust but a wedgy: her costume is basically painted on. This is from DeFalco's boob window cozzy of the 1990s. Thankfully the pre-1990 Sue never wore anything like that: it was pretty much the opposite of her character, as noted in annual 12 I think.
As for the red colours, this is from the Incredibles: now that Disney owns Marvel, it is safe to admit that "The Incredibles" was the Fantastic Four.
p.9 (top half): falling out of the Fantasticar: this is from FF 124. (I will note that back in FF 7 they had enough sense to wear seatbelts.)
p.9 (bottom half): everyone adds their hand to Ben's hand to show they are a team: this is straight from FF1.
p.10 a backup team - the concept is from FF351-353. Ant man is from FF16, She-Hulk from 257, and the Thing costume is from 170. A female Thing is from 310.
Once again the super tough costume leaves a highly vulnerable part, this time the head, completely exposed.
The idea of the new team just standing there as if we are supposed to be impressed by them not doing anything, this again comes from the 1990s and later.
I will skip over the next ten pages because my interest is severely lacking. The issue ends with a shot of the top cut off the Baxter Building (this is from around FF241 I think), with Shield agents taking control of the building (FF191 or so if memory serves) and Reed put on trial (FF 262 and FF 335)
My problem is not that it's all so old - that would be bad enough. It's that it misses the only parts that actually matter: any feeling of real danger. Nobody ever gets hurt, nothing makes any sense, and the outcome is never in doubt. It tries to fake danger by one of the lamest tropes from the reject bin: claiming that the villains have had their powers increased (how exciting). But if you compare the earlier appearances of these folks you will see their powers, if anything, have been reduced. Which I admit is refreshing in these days of rampant power inflation. The Wrecker on his first appearance could level a building without help. And the Wizard's second generation Wonder Gloves could pretty much do all that stuff without the Wrecking Crew.
In short, it's old but it's not good. But the silver lining is that it points us to stories that WERE good. and for that I am grateful.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 7, 2014 13:02:25 GMT -5
Who is in this version of the Frightful Four?
Is it still the Wingless Wizard, Trapster, Sandman and the revolving-door fourth spot?
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Post by tolworthy on Jun 7, 2014 13:07:58 GMT -5
no, this time it's the Wizard with the Wrecking Crew (Wrecker, Thunderball, and a girl who's dad was Bulldozer)
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 7, 2014 14:26:56 GMT -5
No Trapster!
I thought the Wingless Wizard and Paste-Pot Pete were BFF's!
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Post by Rob Allen on Jun 25, 2014 19:47:02 GMT -5
Somebody put a lot of work into this website: auntpetunia.com/"This site is dedicated to celebrating the greatest TV show never seen, the 1963-64 version of The Fantastic Four."
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 25, 2014 21:56:02 GMT -5
Somebody put a lot of work into this website: auntpetunia.com/"This site is dedicated to celebrating the greatest TV show never seen, the 1963-64 version of The Fantastic Four." That site is ... FANTASTIC!
Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Burgess Meredith as the Mole Man is great, and I love that photo of Paul Lynde as The Impossible Man. The next time I read the FF, I'll be hearing all these voices in my head as I read. Especially William Demarest, saying something like "Stop 'im before he turns into a mackerel!"
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Post by Jasoomian on Jun 25, 2014 22:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by tolworthy on Jun 26, 2014 17:45:08 GMT -5
Somebody put a lot of work into this website: auntpetunia.com/"This site is dedicated to celebrating the greatest TV show never seen, the 1963-64 version of The Fantastic Four." I'd love that to be real! I like how they lampshade the "is this fake?" in the "about". With a few more tweaks it would be even more convincing, but they've put in so much effort already that it seems ungrateful to nit pick.* Great find! *OK, since you asked, the obvious nitpicks are mainly from page 1: the home page is by far the weakest part - the other pages are superb.
1. flip the Corman image over so it's less recognisable, and most important, give them black collars and belts!
2. set it in 65 or 66 - anything earlier is just too early for TV to be interested
3. "Excelsior productions" is a giveaway - that wasn't Stan's catchphrase until later, and anyway, Stan wouldn't be making it.
Various minor give-aways on other pages, but it's meant for fun so I'll give them a pass. Generally an excellent job.
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Post by tolworthy on Jul 1, 2014 6:10:32 GMT -5
Just a heads up. Comic Geek Speak have a new FF-focused podcast. CGS is always pleasant easy listening. The downside is they don't read the FF much, so not everything is 100% accurate or particularly nuanced, but the upside is, well it's a podcast about the Fantastic Four. www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes.phpEDIT: They pointed out a couple of angles I missed, and only made one semi-serious mistake. (Saying the Thing never beat the Hulk: he did in FF 166 and 320, his body beat the Hulk in giant size 1, and they were evenly matched several other times.) Generally an excellent podcast IMO.
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2014 6:07:52 GMT -5
I'm planning a quiz for my site. I'll post the questions in the next post, and the answers after that. I focus on what I think are well known misconceptions, but I don't want to annoy people by pushing my own opinions as facts. So hopefully you guys can tell me if I go too far of make some obvious mistakes. Please note that this refers to ONLY the silver and bronze age, NOT later comics or other titles like Marvel Two In One. (If you want to be specific, FF 1 to 333, from Lee and Kirby to the end of Steve Englehart's run and the Jim Shooter era) Are we ready?
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2014 6:45:12 GMT -5
1. The rocket flight in FF1 only reached just outside the atmosphere. But what did Reed call the flight in FF2?
a. The Mercury program
b. The flight to Mars
c. The Saturn V
d. The pocket rocket
2. When is the first time any humans (including the FF) reached the moon or beyond, using human technology? That is, without relying on alien technology or benefiting from a freak accident?
a. 1961 (FF1)
b. 1963 (FF14)
c. 1965 (FF37)
d. 1969 (FF98)
3. Where was Monster Island?
a. The Bermuda Triangle
b. The Pacific Ocean
c. The Mediterranean Sea
d. The Indian Ocean
4. How old were the team in late 1962 (according to the letters page in FF8)?
a. Johnny was in "his mid teens"; Reed and Ben "in their 20s", Sue "early 20s" but won't say.
b. Johnny was "just 16"; Reed and Ben "early 30s", Sue "early 20s" but won't say.
c. Johnny was "just 16"; Reed and Ben "mid 30s", Sue "in her 20s" but won't say.
d. Johnny was "just 17"; Reed and Ben "late 30s", Sue "in her 20s" but won't say.
5. When is the last time the FF comic referred to Ben or Reed fighting in World War II?
a. 1963 (FF11)
b. 1967 (FF annual 5)
c. 1977 (FF179)
d. 1987 (FF309)
6. how strong is Ben compared with the Hulk(according to the Letters Page in FF108)?
a. "We have always said" that Ben is stronger
b. "We have always said" that they are about the same, except the Hulk is bigger
c. "We have always said" that Ben is weaker
d. "We have never said", and leave it for the readers to guess
7. how smart is Reed, compared to, say, a Nobel Prize winning scientist?
a. Much smarter. Reed can invent pretty much anything in a matter of hours (or days, tops)
b. Reed can't do everything, but much smarter than normal human: he could win Nobel Prizes routinely.
c. Very smart, but sometimes needs help. Maybe one day he might win a Nobel Prize
d. Above average, but probably not Nobel Prize material .
8. How many girlfriends (lasting more than one date) did Johnny have before Alicia?
a. More than ten girlfriends (over the 25 years of publication): he was quite the ladies' man
b. Around 7 to 10 girlfriends, quite the heartbreaker.
c. Five or six girlfriends, but most of them dumped him.
d. Four girlfriends, and they all dumped him
9. which character faints the most?
a. Reed
b. Sue
c. Ben
d. Johnny
10. Who defeated Doctor Doom in their first battle (and most often thereafter)? I.e. who landed the decisive final blow?
a. Reed
b. Sue
c. Ben
d. Johnny
11. How many official team members were there between 1961 and 1988?
(E.g. Franklin is not an official member; Power Man was, briefly)
a. 7
b. 9
c. 11
d. 12
12. How many floors does the Baxter Building have (since the changes in FF6, and including the FF's headquarters):
a. 35
b. 36
c. 38
d. 40
13. About whom was it said, "Galaxies... endless stars... the universe spread at his feet. They're like toys to him... a child's toys"
a. Franklin
b. Galactus
c. The Infant Terrible
d. The Beyonder
14. Which artist first showed Sue flying by using her invisible force field?
a. Jack Kirby
b. John Buscema
c. George Perez
d. John Byrne
15. In the classic era and later (e.g. from Reed and Sue's wedding and later) how often does Johnny tease Ben?
a. Never: Johnny is far too serious to ever tease
b. Once or twice
c. In around one in ten issues
d. In around one in four issues
16. The FF went on sale August 1961. What Cold War related event took place in that month?
a. Churchill's "Iron Curtain" speech
b. The building of the Berlin Wall
c. The first Russian H bomb test
d. The start of the Korean War
17. The last issue of Steve Englehart's run was FF333, cover dated November 1989. What Cold War related event took place that month?
a. Gorbechev becomes Russian premier
b. Gorbechev announces Glasnost and Perestroika
c. the fall of the Berlin Wall
d. Russia and America agree on the reunification of Germany
Next: the answers (no peaking!)
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 15, 2014 7:40:50 GMT -5
ANSWERS (no peaking!) 1. b. The flight to Mars. Reed was condemning himself, so may have been exaggerating. Most likely it referred to the long term goal of the project, such as the Apollo Program aiming for the moon, even though the early Apollo flights did not get that far. See details see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_cosmic.html#star_drives2. d. 1969 (FF98). This is why it was a giant leap for mankind: it was the first by human power. When the FF reached the moon in FF13 it was thanks to a freak meteorite that provided almost unlimited power, and apparently could only be used once. When they travelled to the Skrull world in FF37 they used a standard Saturn V rocket on loan from NASA to leave the atmosphere, then apparently hitched a ride on the Skrull transporter beam. The journey to rescue Ben from the Skrull world in F88 used a captured flying saucer. zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_cosmic.html#star_drives3. b. The Pacific Ocean (see FF1, FF296, etc.) In the 1990s this was changed to the Bermuda Triangle. For many other changes in the 1990s, see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-different.html 4. d. Johnny was "just 17"; Reed and Ben "late 30s", Sue "in her 20s" but won't say. For a closer look at Sue's age, see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-act4-FF274.html#FF2915. d. 1987 (FF309) In the bronze age the characters aged slowly, but dates were still fixed in real time: Reed and Ben fought in WWII, the FF began in 1961, etc. A STRETCHING time scale did not break free of real time and become a SLIDING time scale until after 1987: probably in FF322 or FF333 (1989). 6. b. Ben was about as strong as the Hulk, and any difference is simply due to size. For details see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_thing.html7. c. In FF69, Reed needed help from Dr Santini. In FF annual 15, Reed is very excited by a relatively simple discovery, and they talk of perhaps winning the Nobel Prize. This discovery (an energy beam) was used many times in the past, but seems to have been Reed using Skrull technology (the power beam was first seen with the Super Skrull, FF18). Most of Reed's machines seem to rely on reusing captured alien technology that he does not completely understand. See zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/superscience_technology.html8. d. Four girlfriends, and they all dumped him. They were: Dorrie, Crystal, Frankie and Lorrie. The idea that Johnny was some kind of womanizer, did not appear until the 1990s. See zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-act4-FF201.html#FF204 For a close look at Johnny's heart, see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/Crystal.html9. a. Reed. The first characters to faint were all three boys, due to lack of oxygen when trapped by Dr Doom in FF5. Reed had several years of weakness in the 1970s, notably fainting in FF124, FF148 and FF184. 10. b. Sue. Sue rescued the team from Doom in FF5, then was rescued by her friend Namor in F6. She wrested the gun from Doom in FF16, defeated him in hand to hand combat in FF17, saved the FF and an entire village from destruction in the Latverian quest, and so on. Sue has always been the strongest member of the team when measured by results. See zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/Susan_Storm1.html11. b. 9: the original four, plus Crystal, Medusa, Power Man, She-Hulk, and Ms Marvel. Did I miss anyone? 12. d. 40. For details see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-act4-FF133.html#FF148 and scroll down a little 13 a. Franklin, in FF141 14. a. Jack Kirby, on the cover of F173. Carol Strickland later suggested it in a letters page, and Byrne adopted the idea inside FF232. 15. b. Once or twice. Before 1965 (Reed and Sue's marriage, when Johnny was a teenager), teasing Ben was common. But he soon grew out of it. In FF151 for example they are adults and friends. After the marriage I can only find two examples of Johnny teasing Ben, and each may have had a more serious reason, e.g. to get Ben fighting in order to snap him out of depression, in F233. Johnny also accidentally annoys Ben when asking him to be Best Man in FF297. In Marvel Two In One Johnny teases Ben more, but not in the main book. 16. b. The building of the Berlin Wall 17. c. the fall of the Berlin Wall. (The Brandenburg gate was opened and the first pieces of the wall were demolished by the public). This may have been inevitable after Hungary removes its border restrictions with Austria in August,the date when FF333 went on sale. Foer the significance of Englehart's run as the end of Fantastic Four continuity, see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_end.html For how it was a different team and different story thereafter, see zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-different.htmlHow did yo do? How did I do?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 15, 2014 8:19:57 GMT -5
I gave it a shot (though this level of detail certainly exceeds my brain) and got 7 right.
My only questiom is on the membership... you clearly didn't could the 'New' Fantastic Four (wolverine, Ghost Rider, Hulk and... Spidey maybe?). Also, I could have sworn Spiderman was a member for like 1/2 an issue, then quit (much like he did with the Avengers a couple times).
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