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Post by MDG on Mar 22, 2023 11:10:16 GMT -5
Most artists that stick around are going to have their skills diminish. I have a problem with people that change their style for he worse. Sometimes skills diminish; sometimes artists just "become more of themselves."
For example, if I (or a few other folks here) were presented with, say, a set of DC pages from the early-mid 50s (assuming no "tells" like regular characters), it might take a minute or two to identify which is by Infantino, Anderson, Kane, Sekowsky, Kirby, or Toth.
A set of pages by the same artists from the mid-60s, which is which would be almost immediately apparent.
By 1980, you could almost tell in the dark.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 22, 2023 14:19:30 GMT -5
Most artists that stick around are going to have their skills diminish. I have a problem with people that change their style for he worse. Sometimes skills diminish; sometimes artists just "become more of themselves."
For example, if I (or a few other folks here) were presented with, say, a set of DC pages from the early-mid 50s (assuming no "tells" like regular characters), it might take a minute or two to identify which is by Infantino, Anderson, Kane, Sekowsky, Kirby, or Toth.
A set of pages by the same artists from the mid-60s, which is which would be almost immediately apparent.
By 1980, you could almost tell in the dark.
I never really thought of it that way. Good observation. In some cases, it really worked against them... Heck, Adams, Buckler, Byrne, and others just became looser and farther from what I loved about them.. just my opinion.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2023 14:23:42 GMT -5
Sometimes skills diminish; sometimes artists just "become more of themselves."
For example, if I (or a few other folks here) were presented with, say, a set of DC pages from the early-mid 50s (assuming no "tells" like regular characters), it might take a minute or two to identify which is by Infantino, Anderson, Kane, Sekowsky, Kirby, or Toth.
A set of pages by the same artists from the mid-60s, which is which would be almost immediately apparent.
By 1980, you could almost tell in the dark. In some cases, it really worked against them... Heck, Adams, Buckler, Byrne, and others just became looser and farther from what I loved about them.. just my opinion. Seems more like it worked against you than against them. If they were happier with their output it wasn't working against them at all.
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Post by MDG on Mar 22, 2023 14:33:44 GMT -5
In some cases, it really worked against them... Heck, Adams, Buckler, Byrne, and others just became looser and farther from what I loved about them.. just my opinion. Seems more like it worked against you than against them. If they were happier with their output it wasn't working against them at all. Not disagreeing, but calling it "output" brings up the whole "art vs. commerce" thing. Most of the folks we're talking about here were often/usually knocking it out for a page rate. What stylistic quirks were artistic choices and what were shortcuts (or more kindly, "lessons learned")?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2023 14:37:15 GMT -5
Seems more like it worked against you than against them. If they were happier with their output it wasn't working against them at all. Not disagreeing, but calling it "output" brings up the whole "art vs. commerce" thing. Most of the folks we're talking about here were often/usually knocking it out for a page rate. What stylistic quirks were artistic choices and what were shortcuts (or more kindly, "lessons learned")? In a lot of cases. I know that a lot of people hate late-stage Infantino. But Carmine liked most of that work a lot better than what he was doing earlier on Flash and Adam Strange. He found it to be a more interesting style and it wasn't, as he put it, smothered by inkers like Murphy Anderson.
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Post by MDG on Mar 22, 2023 14:50:21 GMT -5
Not disagreeing, but calling it "output" brings up the whole "art vs. commerce" thing. Most of the folks we're talking about here were often/usually knocking it out for a page rate. What stylistic quirks were artistic choices and what were shortcuts (or more kindly, "lessons learned")? In a lot of cases. I know that a lot of people hate late-stage Infantino. But Carmine liked most of that work a lot better than what he was doing earlier on Flash and Adam Strange. He found it to be a more interesting style and it wasn't, as he put it, smothered by inkers like Murphy Anderson. You don't have to sell me on late-period Carmine. When I saw him at a con in 2000, he talked about how much he loved how Denis Jensen inked his work when he returned to The Flash.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 22, 2023 17:11:35 GMT -5
In a lot of cases. I know that a lot of people hate late-stage Infantino. But Carmine liked most of that work a lot better than what he was doing earlier on Flash and Adam Strange. He found it to be a more interesting style and it wasn't, as he put it, smothered by inkers like Murphy Anderson. You don't have to sell me on late-period Carmine. When I saw him at a con in 2000, he talked about how much he loved how Denis Jensen inked his work when he returned to The Flash.He was wrong. We hated it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2023 17:41:26 GMT -5
You don't have to sell me on late-period Carmine. When I saw him at a con in 2000, he talked about how much he loved how Denis Jensen inked his work when he returned to The Flash.He was wrong. We hated it. He wasn't wrong. He loved it. He didn't care what you thought.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 22, 2023 17:55:33 GMT -5
He was wrong. We hated it. He wasn't wrong. He loved it. He didn't care what you thought. It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 18:05:25 GMT -5
He wasn't wrong. He loved it. He didn't care what you thought. It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that. So you are firmly on the side of comics ar enot art but product and the consumer's opinion matters, not the artists? If it's art, then the artist's opinion matters and sales and consumer opinion are meaningless. I am firmly on the side that sales do not reflect quality. Good comics don't sell well at times and bad comics can sell like gangbusters. If as a creator, you are doing something just to sell and not to your satisfaction, well that's the definition of a hack. Obviously, commercial artists have to make ends meet via their creative output, but if the creator's goal is to create art, then their opinion of their work is what matters, not the consumer's or the market's. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2023 18:05:29 GMT -5
He wasn't wrong. He loved it. He didn't care what you thought. It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that. The idea that Infantino's art was the sole reason that Flash was cancelled is ridiculous. Clearly the interminable "Trial of the Flash" storyline by writer/editor Cary Bates had nothing to do with it at all. And given Infantino's personality...he still wouldn't have cared.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 22, 2023 19:21:49 GMT -5
It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that. The idea that Infantino's art was the sole reason that Flash was cancelled is ridiculous. Clearly the interminable "Trial of the Flash" storyline by writer/editor Cary Bates had nothing to do with it at all. And given Infantino's personality...he still wouldn't have cared. Oh, I always thought that trial storyline was just a dozen chapters too short.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 22, 2023 19:36:32 GMT -5
The idea that Infantino's art was the sole reason that Flash was cancelled is ridiculous. Clearly the interminable "Trial of the Flash" storyline by writer/editor Cary Bates had nothing to do with it at all. And given Infantino's personality...he still wouldn't have cared. Oh, I always thought that trial storyline was just a dozen chapters too short. They could have gotten half a dozen issues out of the Motions in Limine that were begging to be filed in that case.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 22, 2023 21:04:21 GMT -5
It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that. The idea that Infantino's art was the sole reason that Flash was cancelled is ridiculous. Clearly the interminable "Trial of the Flash" storyline by writer/editor Cary Bates had nothing to do with it at all. And given Infantino's personality...he still wouldn't have cared. Agreed; Infantino's art had nothing to do with the demise of a title that had not performed well in a considerable amount of time, no matter who was working on it.
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Post by Chris on Mar 23, 2023 1:34:20 GMT -5
In a lot of cases. I know that a lot of people hate late-stage Infantino. But Carmine liked most of that work a lot better than what he was doing earlier on Flash and Adam Strange. He found it to be a more interesting style and it wasn't, as he put it, smothered by inkers like Murphy Anderson. You don't have to sell me on late-period Carmine. When I saw him at a con in 2000, he talked about how much he loved how Denis Jensen inked his work when he returned to The Flash. I liked Infantino's work on Flash in the 80s, especially the later issues. And Jensen was an excellent inker for him, but he was too slow and couldn't keep up with the monthly pace. He wasn't wrong. He loved it. He didn't care what you thought. It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that. I really should have kept up with my "Trial of the Flash" review thread, but life got twisted up and I couldn't focus on it, but it would have corrected a number of things like this. It got the book cancelled. I think he cared after that. The idea that Infantino's art was the sole reason that Flash was cancelled is ridiculous. Clearly the interminable "Trial of the Flash" storyline by writer/editor Cary Bates had nothing to do with it at all. And given Infantino's personality...he still wouldn't have cared. ..and like this. I think I'm gonna have to get back to that thread soon.
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