|
Post by Calidore on Oct 14, 2022 10:16:29 GMT -5
I've been trying to read more of the early Marvels, seeing what's enjoyable in between the oft-reprinted origins and classics. I enjoyed the heck out of old Dr. Strange, for starters, and Nick Fury in the same mags was plenty fun. Hulk was surprisingly absorbing also, despite all the repetition.
You folks weren't kidding about early Thor, though. I went into it thinking, well, it's still Thor, and Odin, and cool mythic stuff, so how bad could it be? Woof. Thankfully, that period doesn't last too long before Stan steps in as writer and it really takes off.
So what about the rest? Fantastic Four seems pretty much a gimme, but how well does old Avengers hold up? I see the original X-Men taking a shellacking elsewhere on the board. Any good parts there? And how about Daredevil and Captain America? Any other books or runs worth seeking out or avoiding?
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Oct 14, 2022 10:24:57 GMT -5
First, I want to say that some of the early issues of a lot of books are not that great (to put it mildly) but they eventually hit their stride, like Thor. As for which books, Daredevil is a yes. Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish are both worth while, especially after Cap and the Hulk joined the respective titles. I found the Avengers hit or miss, but better when Buscema took over for Heck. FF and Spidey are a must. X-men mostly sucked after the first dozen issues until the 50s when Steranko and Adams drew it (and some interesting early Barry Smith)
|
|
|
Post by tonebone on Oct 14, 2022 10:38:53 GMT -5
I think a lot of the Stan Lee era of Marvel has to be appreciated HOLISTICALLY. A lot of the individual issues are not that impressive or memorable on their own, but taken as part of a larger whole, they are all essential to the overall story. The Marvel Universe was built VERY slowly. I mean, it's "big bang" was like an explosion and rapid expansion, with the advent of FF, Spidey, Dr. Strange, etc. but for it to form a cohesive THING, wherein those threads were all woven into a tapestry, took some time.
But, don't get me wrong... There are definitely many gems that hold their own as single stories or issues.
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Oct 14, 2022 11:07:56 GMT -5
Ditko's Dr. Strange is really good. This may sound like Lee-bashing, but any stories where Ditko or Kirby aren't on board and invested rarely rate above "above average". (This is from a limited reading.) But like tonebone says, Silver Age Marvel is really an example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. To use a bad metaphor, FF and Spider-Man are the meat; Iron Man and Daredevil are pickles and ketchup.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 14, 2022 12:11:54 GMT -5
In my view, the best Silver Age/1960s Marvel material - if we're talking about the stuff scripted by Stan Lee - is Dr. Strange when Ditko was doing the art, and Spider-man from Amazing Fantasy #15 all the way to the end of the decade.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Oct 14, 2022 12:58:04 GMT -5
Ditko's Dr. Strange is really good. This may sound like Lee-bashing, but any stories where Ditko or Kirby aren't on board and invested rarely rate above "above average". (This is from a limited reading.) But like tonebone says, Silver Age Marvel is really an example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. To use a bad metaphor, FF and Spider-Man are the meat; Iron Man and Daredevil are pickles and ketchup. Early Gene Colan Daredevil, Romita Spider-Man, Buscema Silver Surfer.. plenty of non-Kirby/Ditko books were good.
Not that the Kirby/Ditko books didn't shine. But the earlier Silver Age artist that also did books, like Heck and Ayers were not up to that level.
|
|
|
Post by Calidore on Oct 14, 2022 16:08:34 GMT -5
Appreciate the responses very much! Not sure how I left out Spider-Man, excapt that it's been quite a few years since I marathoned that from the start. Plowing through well over a hundred issues of that was a breeze.
Iron Man is another I haven't read much of.
I agree about the nature of the writing itself, but I've found a lot of that is the mindset one brings. One non-comics example: My dad once mentioned listening to an old radio serial called "The Cinnamon Bear" as a kid. I gave it a try and found it incredibly cheesy, only making it through maybe two episodes. Then sometime later, it popped into my head again, and I decided that maybe I hadn't been listening to it with the right ears. I tried again and quite enjoyed it the second time. One comics example where this has applied for me is Jack Kirby's writing, specifically his Fourth World stuff. Didn't care for his style at all at first, but reading it more recently and allowing his style to be okay, for lack of a better way of putting it, made all the difference.
Thanks for all the input, and please keep it coming.
|
|
|
Post by commond on Oct 14, 2022 17:54:27 GMT -5
I've been reading Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos lately. It doesn't really compare to the war books that other companies produced, but it has its own charm. Kirby was either over-stretched or not really into it. Ayers is an improvement once he takes over.
You should definitely read the Wally Wood issues of Daredevil. I've only cherry-picked early Daredevil, but there are some decent Gene Colan stories. I had no idea about the Mike Murdock alter-ego before I read them. That was a bit of a head spinner.
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 14, 2022 18:27:53 GMT -5
I’m not a big fan of Lee’s dialogue though his plotting was great. I think his melodramtic dialogue did play well with Surfer and Thor. And to make it better Buscema and Kirby respectively were two great compliments to Lee’s writing on those two titles. But for the most part I’m indifferent to most all other titles Lee wrote dialogue for.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Oct 14, 2022 18:52:49 GMT -5
FF, Thor (from around #115 -120 or so), and Dr. Strange are essential. Probably Spider-Man too, for its historic significance, though that isn't a top favourite of mine, eprsonally. Still great, though.
Of the lesser lights:
Daredevil, I've always liked the character, plus there's Wally Wood and then Gene Colan. Doesn't get much better, in my book.
Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD, another favourite, but again, I'm a fan of the whole spy genre and IIRC, Lee handled it pretty well. Visually you had Kirby and then Steranko.
The Hulk, from what I remember, is worth reading during the Lee era, though I think there were different artists?
Iron Man is a character that's never appealed to me, visually or conceptually so I'll probably avoid that series for the most part whenever I get around to reading early Marvel.
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Oct 14, 2022 19:02:29 GMT -5
I've been trying to read more of the early Marvels, seeing what's enjoyable in between the oft-reprinted origins and classics. I enjoyed the heck out of old Dr. Strange, for starters, and Nick Fury in the same mags was plenty fun. Hulk was surprisingly absorbing also, despite all the repetition.
You folks weren't kidding about early Thor, though. I went into it thinking, well, it's still Thor, and Odin, and cool mythic stuff, so how bad could it be? Woof. Thankfully, that period doesn't last too long before Stan steps in as writer and it really takes off.
So what about the rest? Fantastic Four seems pretty much a gimme, but how well does old Avengers hold up? I see the original X-Men taking a shellacking elsewhere on the board. Any good parts there? And how about Daredevil and Captain America? Any other books or runs worth seeking out or avoiding?
Silver Age Spider-Man is another gimmie--absolutely classic for a remarkable run.
Silver Age run of The Avengers is essential Marvel; while the Fantastic Four made major strides with the idea of the dysfunctional super-group format (soon built on in an influential manner with Drake & Haney's The Doom Patrol at DC), the Avengers were another type of super-team which quickly moved from A-list characters, to taking cues from The Justice League of America's early issues by populating the group with B-listers. Through B-listers, there was more plotting opportunity for not-so-high-and-mighty B/C-listers to be petty and more obsessed with personal issues than a Thor or Iron Man. In my view, the height of The Avengers title was the Thomas/Buscema run, where I'd say they were producing the pound-for-pound greatest Marvel team comic while it lasted.
Captain America is a another must; it was one thing to turn a Golden Age character into a "man out of time" trope, but he was taken into often dark territories with his PTSD over Bucky (in part, thanks to his enemies exploiting his being unsure about Bucky's fate), a new wave of fascist organizations in the tumultuous late 60s (and relevant) while Rogers questioned his role as a patriotic symbol in a nation no longer fitting the world his image was created to represent. Silver / Bronze Age Captain America is among Marvel's best.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Oct 14, 2022 21:35:09 GMT -5
I've been reading Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos lately. It doesn't really compare to the war books that other companies produced, but it has its own charm. Kirby was either over-stretched or not really into it. Ayers is an improvement once he takes over. You should definitely read the Wally Wood issues of Daredevil. I've only cherry-picked early Daredevil, but there are some decent Gene Colan stories. I had no idea about the Mike Murdock alter-ego before I read them. That was a bit of a head spinner. Kirby hated it. He was a combat veteran and felt it was a joke. His stories from DC's The Losers are waaay closer to his experiences and a couple of them put to shame some of the Kanigher and Kubert stuff. Sgt Fury isn't bad, under Roy Thomas, but doesn't really get "good," until Gary Friedrich is writing it, with Dick Ayers and John Severin as the art team. Some excellent stuff in there. Rawhide Kid, with Kirby art, is some good stuff, if you like westerns and Two-Gun Kid has moments. I enjoyed seeing Ayers back on the original Ghost Rider, when Marvel revived it (later reprinted as night Rider). I love the Tales of Suspense run of Captain America; especially the wartime flashbacks (some of which were retellings of Simon & Kirby stories, with Stan & Jack). Captain Marvel was decent, at the start, especially with Colan's art; but, had trouble sustaining momentum throughout its life, apart from Starlin. I second the Colan Daredevil stuff; really dynamic stuff, with a swashbuckling flavor that I loved. It's why I really hated how dour and serious DD was, after Miller (not because of him, but everyone copying his take). I missed DD cracking a joke once in a while and fighting guys like Stiltman and Leapfrog.
|
|
|
Post by spoon on Oct 14, 2022 23:06:59 GMT -5
X-men mostly sucked after the first dozen issues until the 50s when Steranko and Adams drew it (and some interesting early Barry Smith) Yes, the earliest X-Men issues by Lee & Kirby are good. The mediocre stuff is the long Roy Thomas/Werner Roth stint. There are some good issues prior to the Thomas/Adams run. I forget if those good issues are the ones written by Drake or Friedrich or both. Amazing Spider-Man is great during both the Dikto and Romita periods. I actually like the Romita stuff more. I echo everyone who says Daredevil is a good read. Yet despite my love for Romita's Spider-Man, I think my least favorite Silve Age Daredevil issues are a few Romita drew. I generally like Captain America and Hulk. But when they're in split books, it's basically an endless chain of cliffhangers. That means my enthusiasm would sometimes ebb and flow depending on how much I was into the continuous storyline.
|
|
|
Post by Calidore on Oct 15, 2022 10:10:51 GMT -5
Looks like Daredevil is a big winner here, so I'll try that one next. Gene Colan's art is definitely a bonus. I've got Frank Miller's runs, so it will be interesting revisiting them with the full background, and maybe trying what came after (and in between) this time. Ann Nocenti wrote the book for quite a while after Miller, but I always struggled getting into her work and dropped the book at that point. Maybe it's time to revisit that run with fresh eyes. Then I think it was Dan Chichester, who I'm not familiar with at all. Tend to agree with you, spoon, about the endless cliffhangers, but the segments flow so smoothly, it feels like that was those creators' natural style. I no doubt would have been frustrated buying them as a kid--and helplessly continued to buy them while grumbling.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Oct 15, 2022 10:26:47 GMT -5
I loved the Nocenti/Romita Jr run, especially with Al Willianson inks.
|
|