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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 21:31:49 GMT -5
Y problem with this is many of the great stories I love rely on a knowledge of the characters and stories that came before. So they would not make a good intro to the Universes. And many of the introductory tales are far from the best. That's part of the challenge of this thought experiment. Finding that happy medium of enjoyable story that provides foundational knowledge. My gut reaction to this is that if we the hardcore fans can't come up with these type of cornerstone stories to suggest, how the hell is someone going to come in new and find enough of an engaging and enjoyable reading experience to want to explore more and become a regular reader. If the MU and the DCU is so insular that we can't come up with 5 stories that are accessible, informative and entertaining, it's no wonder readership is dwindling while the characters thrive in other medium and that entropy is outstripping new readership growth. -M
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Post by berkley on Aug 17, 2022 21:50:16 GMT -5
For me, it sounds like the best things to answer Gillen's request would likely be comics from the last two decades or so because they would be more in tune with MU as it exists today. The older comics from my time as a Marvel reader I think would often be disappointing to readers looking for an entry into today's MU: different time, different mentality, different style of artwork, different approach to writing, even different personalitites for many characters.
I don't know the newer comics well enough to make an informed selection but I imagine that things like the Superhero Registration event would given readers an idea of how the MU works today. I haven't read those comics, so can't say anything from personal experience.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 17, 2022 21:52:34 GMT -5
Y problem with this is many of the great stories I love rely on a knowledge of the characters and stories that came before. So they would not make a good intro to the Universes. And many of the introductory tales are far from the best. Hence the existence--and importance of collections. In the 70s, the Bonanza & Harmony DC hardcovers (e.g. Batman from the 30s to the 70s, Shazam from the 40s to the 70s, Secret Origins of the DC Super-Heroes, etc.) and Fireside's Marvel books (e.g. Origins of Marvel Comics, The Amazing Spider-Man, Bring on the Bad Guys, etc.) were near-perfect in being as rich in information for the reader just dipping his toes into those worlds as it had been for experienced readers. From those HBs and TPBs, a new reader would get a healthy crash course in the companies' most significant creations, but use it as a springboard to seek out the fleshed-out worlds those characters inhabited in back issues and the then-current monthlies.
For present-day readers, there are more than enough collections they can be exposed to which would have the same effect.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 22:04:46 GMT -5
Y problem with this is many of the great stories I love rely on a knowledge of the characters and stories that came before. So they would not make a good intro to the Universes. And many of the introductory tales are far from the best. Hence the existence--and importance of collections. In the 70s, the Bonanza & Harmony DC hardcovers (e.g. Batman from the 30s to the 70s, Shazam from the 40s to the 70s, Secret Origins of the DC Super-Heroes, etc.) and Fireside's Marvel books (e.g. Origins of Marvel Comics, The Amazing Spider-Man, Bring on the Bad Guys, etc.) were near-perfect in being as rich in information for the reader just dipping his toes into those worlds as it had been for experienced readers. From those HBs and TPBs, a new reader would get a healthy crash course in the companies' most significant creations, but use it as a springboard to seek out the fleshed-out worlds those characters inhabited in back issues and the then-current monthlies.
For a present-day readers, there are more than enough collections they can be exposed to which would have the same effect.
the new Penguin Collections look to be an excellent entry survey by character. I looked over the Cap and Panther volumes form the library and they are excellent primers for each character. I haven't seen the Spidey one in person. But they are pretty thick volumes, so you have to devote a lot to a single character with those, and while good for the character, they may not be the best intro to the shared universe of the MU. -M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2022 22:27:42 GMT -5
For me, it sounds like the best things to answer Gillen's request would likely be comics from the last two decades or so because they would be more in tune with MU as it exists today. The older comics from my time as a Marvel reader I think would often be disappointing to readers looking for an entry into today's MU: different time, different mentality, different style of artwork, different approach to writing, even different personalitites for many characters. I don't know the newer comics well enough to make an informed selection but I imagine that things like the Superhero Registration event would given readers an idea of how the MU works today. I haven't read those comics, so can't say anything from personal experience. But there are certain themes that have a throughline through the entirety of the MU (Douglas Wolk's book does an excellent job of tracing and highlighting those themes through "All the Marvels" from the 60s-2015): the cosmology of Marvel (Eternity, Living Tribunal, Mephisto, Dormammu, Beyonder, Thanos, etc.), the sci-fi influence, the timeywhimey stuff (Kang, Immortus, Doom's platform, etc.), the heroes with feet of clay, etc. that if introduced properly with curated selections can give a reader an understanding of the fundamental tenets of the MU. I think a lot of folks are getting lost in the weeds trying to find ways to intrduce all the "important details" and continuity, but I don't think those things are the cornerstones a new reader needs to get grounded and find things to enjoy in the MU. They need the gist of what the MU is and what to expect when they explore on their own, not an encyclopedic guidebook of every detail of the MU. I think tarkintino is on the right track with the idea that they need a collection of stories, not something that serves the function of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. I mean you could go to the History of the Marvel Universe 6 issue mini by Waid form a couple years back or the Marvel Sage form the 80s around the time of the 25th anniversary if you wanted that, but those kind of things convey details but don't convey what makes the Marvel Universe enjoyable and gripping They lack drama, tension, conflict and resolution. I think we underestimate the ability of readers to pick things up in medias res and feel we have to dot every I and cross every T for a new reader before they interact with a story. Context is nice, and sometimes necessary, but if a reader can pick up the gist as part of a really gripping story that highlights one of the key elements that defines what the MU is, then its ok for that story to not start at the very beginning or include every bit of minutae about the characters involved. They'll discover that stuff if they continue to explore, and they will if the story is engaging enough and accessible enough-but that accessibility isn't in the devil of the details, its in finding connections and themes that resonate with the reader enough to get them interested in finding out more, to explore to fill in the details. If someone is interested in exploring Norse mythology, they don't need every detail of every god and every aspect of Ragnorak spelled out for them before hand to read some tales and become interested. But the onus is on finding stories that exemplify Norse mythology and resonate with the reader inspiring them to want to read more and find out those details. It's the same with comic book shared universe, but I find hardcore fans forget that in favor of the minutiae of continuity and wind up underestimating both the potential reader and the power of the stories to capture readers and fire their imagination the way they once did for us that led us to becoming hardcore fans. What makes the MU (or the DCU) cool and inspired you to want to explore more? Ok then, what stories exemplify those things? It doesn't need to be a road map with every detail, it needs to be a travel brouchure that gets you to want to go there and explore for yourself. You're interested in the Marvel Universe? Check out these cool sci-fi wonders and themes is story X. Explore the cosmos in story Y. See what it takes to be a hero and the sacrifices a hero makes in story Z. Like these? There a hundreds if not thousands more in the MU. come explore. Not, here's exhibit A, let's drone on about the minutae for 25 minutes and lose the audience after 30 second, and their checking facebook or twitter before I am done detailing the origin of this particular hero and how this aspect of the story became important in some other story 20 years later, because you have to master all that before you can understand this cross-over story... What's at the heart of the shared universe you love? What got you excited about that universe? What's a good example of those things? Now, what's the best 5 of those stories you thought of? -M
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Post by EdoBosnar on Aug 18, 2022 3:36:36 GMT -5
DC: 1. JLA #200 2. Showcase #100 3. Batman Annual #8 ("The Messiah of the Crimson Sun") 4. New Teen Titans #1-6 (alternatively, the Starfire/Blackfire saga, NTT #23-25, Annual #1) 5. The Golden Age #1-4
Marvel:
1. X-men Annual #3 ("A Fire in the Sky") 2. Nights of Wundagore (expanded to include everything from Avengers 181 through 187) 3. Project Pegasus (Marvel 2-in-1 #53-58) 4. Marvel Team-up #82-85 (what I call the 'Black Widow with amnesia' saga) 5. Thor #337-355 (this may be stretching the rules here, but honestly I wanted to say the entirety of Simonson's Thor run)
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Post by berkley on Aug 18, 2022 4:49:39 GMT -5
This raises the question of when did the shared universe become the priority with everyone? As a Marvel reader back in the 60 and 70s, I liked the idea, but only in a very restricted way, limited to superhero series like the FF, the Avengers, Spider-Man, DD, the Defenders, etc.
I never felt any need to think of series like, say, Killraven or Deathlock or Werewolf by Night as part of the MU, and whenever I saw efforts to include them they always felt lame, misguided, and ultimately pointless.when I fell in love with MoKF or what have you, I didn't have the MU in mind at all - in fact, whenever the MU made itself felt (e.g. when Dr. Doom appeared in one story) it always felt a bit off to me. I never felt any need to think of a series like Killraven as part of the MU, and whenever I saw efforts to include them they always felt lame, misguided, and ultimately pointless. Sure, a gifted writer like Englehart could have the Avngers go back in time and meet western characters like the Two-gun Kid, but that doesn't mean everyone can do it. It was a new and brilliant idea even to try it at that time - and he made it work.
I see the premise behind Gillen's question - the assumption that the MU, the shared universe, is more important than the individual concepts or characters or series or what have you - as a self-justification of his own work for that company. Gaiman said similar things when he was writing for Marvel, how much he loved the MU and so on. I apologise for these harsh words - not that they themselves will ever read this, but just on prnciple - because I don't think they're bad people, just caught up in the necessities of life and work - but I don't take seriously anything they say about their work for Marvel. The proof is in the pages printed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 14:14:39 GMT -5
This raises the question of when did the shared universe become the priority with everyone? As a Marvel reader back in the 60 and 70s, I liked the idea, but only in a very restricted way, limited to superhero series like the FF, the Avengers, Spider-Man, DD, the Defenders, etc. I never felt any need to think of series like, say, Killraven or Deathlock or Werewolf by Night as part of the MU, and whenever I saw efforts to include them they always felt lame, misguided, and ultimately pointless.when I fell in love with MoKF or what have you, I didn't have the MU in mind at all - in fact, whenever the MU made itself felt (e.g. when Dr. Doom appeared in one story) it always felt a bit off to me. I never felt any need to think of a series like Killraven as part of the MU, and whenever I saw efforts to include them they always felt lame, misguided, and ultimately pointless. Sure, a gifted writer like Englehart could have the Avngers go back in time and meet western characters like the Two-gun Kid, but that doesn't mean everyone can do it. It was a new and brilliant idea even to try it at that time - and he made it work. I see the premise behind Gillen's question - the assumption that the MU, the shared universe, is more important than the individual concepts or characters or series or what have you - as a self-justification of his own work for that company. Gaiman said similar things when he was writing for Marvel, how much he loved the MU and so on. I apologise for these harsh words - not that they themselves will ever read this, but just on prnciple - because I don't think they're bad people, just caught up in the necessities of life and work - but I don't take seriously anything they say about their work for Marvel. The proof is in the pages printed. By the 80s the shared universe was pretty much set as the he thing which defined Marvel and DC, realized in things like Contest of Champions/Secret Wars for Marvel and Crisis for DC. By the 90s both companies were telling line-wide stories that encompassed multiple titles, and the the start of the 21st century there was no longer a concept of the MU/DCU being something deriving form the titles, but the other way around, the titles derived from their place in the shared universe landscape-that's how titles were conceived, marketed, and executed, and as super-hero stories became more popular in other mediums that concept was the selling point for them. I'd argue that Gillen and such were not justifying their work but stating what is what they inherited when they were hired to write stories for the company. It's what the customers wanted based on what sold and didn't sell (events, cross-overs, guest appearances vs. standard runs on titles, it's what the suits wanted because it meant they could sell a line and not have to sell individual books per se (in terms of marketing), it's what other media concerns wanted (video game developers, movie/TV production studios, etc.). In essence Gillen's question reflects the reality of what comics have been since the 1980s not self-aggrandizement and not the comics as older fans remember it through rose-colored nostalgia lenses. -M
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Post by berkley on Aug 18, 2022 20:52:47 GMT -5
Perhaps not a coincidence that the 1980s is right around the time I stopped following Marvel.
edit: But anyway, from mrp's own perspective of how the MU has become the primary product, the thing fans are most interested in, the selling point for Marvel Comics today, it seems once again that that the logical place to look would be that later era, the 2000s and onwards, when even those characters and ideas that have been around much longer have largely taken on the forms that would be familiar to today's fans.
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Post by MDG on Aug 19, 2022 14:02:26 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be more effective to identify five stories--and by story, a short, discrete, complete tale (not necessarily done in one, but certainly <120 pages)--and let them cultivate their own interest in the "universe"?
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