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Post by The Captain on Oct 14, 2022 10:26:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I loved the reveal that Kevin Feige was actually a robot. That said, while I loved the homage of the classic Incredible Hulk opening I wish there had been an actual conclusion. I definitely agreed with Jen that the typical Marvel 3rd act cgi-action fest wouldn't have been totally satisfactory but they didn't actually give us an ending in its place as we never saw the court case at the end. The court case is immaterial. We knew what the outcome of it was going to be, and the story was about Jen's journey and character development, not the resolution of a plotline. The true conclusion of the series was Jen's answer to the second question that the reporter asked her on the steps to the courthouse. |
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Oct 14, 2022 11:01:30 GMT -5
This turned out to be one of my fave MCU Disney shows. Real strong run of episodes at the end. One question. Is the She Hulk/Daredevil romance something from the comics or new for the series? Also, even though it wouldnt have fit with the tone at the end, I wish we got a walk-away-to-sad-music homage to the 70s Hulk show as well
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Post by majestic on Oct 14, 2022 11:13:29 GMT -5
The ending fell apart for me. I wasn't crazy about the whole K.E.V.I.N. twist. It felt way too cheesy to me. The entire series was a C+ for me.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 15, 2022 5:28:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I loved the reveal that Kevin Feige was actually a robot. That said, while I loved the homage of the classic Incredible Hulk opening I wish there had been an actual conclusion. I definitely agreed with Jen that the typical Marvel 3rd act cgi-action fest wouldn't have been totally satisfactory but they didn't actually give us an ending in its place as we never saw the court case at the end. The court case is immaterial. We knew what the outcome of it was going to be, and the story was about Jen's journey and character development, not the resolution of a plotline. The true conclusion of the series was Jen's answer to the second question that the reporter asked her on the steps to the courthouse. That was a great moment, I was just wishing for something a little more cathartic and I think the court case could have done that. Still loved the series though, definitely one of my favorite Marvel things so far. I wonder if Jen will show up in Daredevil? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 15, 2022 20:27:16 GMT -5
I enjoyed it, but do feel the final episode falls apart, by trying to be too meta. It doesn't really do it well enough to make up for the disjointed flow of the episode. I liked a few elements of the macro-world, but I think the more interesting micro-world suffered, in the end.
I get that the whole episode run basically constitutes and origin story, which is kind of why it felt overly padded, to me. I just don't think it was a strong story arc. now, individual episodes were a different story and I liked how they went for the jugular on the whole internet manchild/troll phenomena. If you ask me, this is why the series is getting the flack it is, more than the quality of the series or a fan disconnect. I think that crowd is doing its usual blathering, because it hit too close to home, while casual viewers probably enjoyed things more.
Really enjoyed Daredevil (Ketchup and mustard as a color scheme?) and I like the character interaction between Jen and her pal/assistant. The rest of the supporting cast needs more work, in terms of depth. The suit designer still felt like Edna Mode, in male drag, minus the better dialogue,.
I never did find the series to be as funny as it seemed to think it was, and nowhere nearly as amusing as Dan Slott's material (nice shout out to him on the tow truck, at Blonsky's retreat facility); but, it had a decent core and the lead actress had enough charm to elevate the weaker stuff.
On the whole, I enjoy these less serious outings than the main MCU stuff, as it tends to work better and feel more natural. Of the regular stuff, I still really only love the Captain America films and then others I like at various degrees (or not, in some cases).
I would like to see further exploration of the fringes and other, less serious material. It's too bad they blew the chance to do Damage Control, as a comedy, by making them the MCU FEMA. I'd love to see them do either a western film or a mini-series, with character like Kid Colt and Rawhide Kid. Anyone named Kid.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 16, 2022 9:17:35 GMT -5
A major development that was kept for later is that we now know that Jen can lose control and go into SHE-HULK SMASH mode. Perhaps Bruce wasn't wrong when he advocated training in controlling one's anger; Jen is now aware that she pauses a credible risk to society. Is she going to take steps to remedy that, or will she dismiss the event as temporary insanity?
Meanwhile, Daredevil's original yellow and red costume doesn't look bad at all on screen... In fact, I may like it better than the all-red one. In the DD series itself, which was more serious, I preferred the black jogging suit... but if DD is going to really go the superhero way, then this new suit is fine.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 16, 2022 12:44:51 GMT -5
A major development that was kept for later is that we now know that Jen can lose control and go into SHE-HULK SMASH mode. Perhaps Bruce wasn't wrong when he advocated training in controlling one's anger; Jen is now aware that she pauses a credible risk to society. Is she going to take steps to remedy that, or will she dismiss the event as temporary insanity? Meanwhile, Daredevil's original yellow and red costume doesn't look bad at all on screen... In fact, I may like it better than the all-red one. In the DD series itself, which was more serious, I preferred the black jogging suit... but if DD is going to really go the superhero way, then this new suit is fine. Muted yellow and red.. It looked fine; but, I think a predominantly red costume, with yellow accenting might be a bit better, but it has to be a brighter shade than that rust look they had on Netflix. If you are going to mute color schemes that much, you might as well costume them in black. Personally, I think Hollywood has moved too far away from theatrical costuming and misses out on chances to do richer colors, by using different materials. Modern superhero films look like Woody Allen's Interiors to me. We need a Maureen Stapleton to show up in one and add some brighter color to things.  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2022 0:13:59 GMT -5
That said, while I loved the homage of the classic Incredible Hulk opening I wish there had been an actual conclusion. I definitely agreed with Jen that the typical Marvel 3rd act cgi-action fest wouldn't have been totally satisfactory but they didn't actually give us an ending in its place as we never saw the court case at the end. Yes. Instead of getting a better ending, we just sort of skipped the ending. It's a deus et machina in disguise, rescuing the writers from a bad dead-end, but offering nothing more substantial in its place. It's cheap. The real problem is that this series never had an arc. If the final episode should be about Jen's finally finding peace with her new identity and with how the world around her perceives her, that needed to be more consistently developed across the episodes with plots that consistently touch upon this. Instead, the series ran wild through only nine episodes with no center whatsoever, and any arcs we might have gotten inadvertently invested in never went anywhere: *What was the point of Jen's rivalry with Titania? it never went anywhere; it never got reconciled. *Where's the big climax to Jen's struggle with her workplace and her boss? She loses her job, moves on quickly, and never gets any kind of resolution with the old, self-interested white male who never saw her as anything more than a mascot. *Why was Emil Blonsky helping out the bad guys? Where the hell was that going, and why did we never get any kind of answer to it? *What happened to Josh? The guy that broker her heart, betrayed her, and nearly ruined her life because he was part of this group is then suspiciously absent when we finally infiltrate the group in the final episode? *And if we want to go all meta and actually take on toxic masculinity in the fandom, don't pull punches in the final moments and let that fanbase off the hook, the "real" villain in handcuffs. Send a real message. And there's more than that. So many instances of leaping over plot points just to get where the writers wanted to get. It's lazy as hell. Fortunately, Tatiana Maslany kicks so much butt that the show was still worth watching, and I'll admit that I really enjoyed the fourth wall breaking. I just don't think it was used well beyond She-Hulk climbing out of the Disney+ menu. Finally, that post-credits scene desperately needed to end with Wong sitting on the couch, the Abomination on one side and Madisynn on the other, chatting about the Real Housewives while stuffing their faces with popcorn. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 17, 2022 12:37:06 GMT -5
That said, while I loved the homage of the classic Incredible Hulk opening I wish there had been an actual conclusion. I definitely agreed with Jen that the typical Marvel 3rd act cgi-action fest wouldn't have been totally satisfactory but they didn't actually give us an ending in its place as we never saw the court case at the end. Yes. Instead of getting a better ending, we just sort of skipped the ending. It's a deus et machina in disguise, rescuing the writers from a bad dead-end, but offering nothing more substantial in its place. It's cheap. The real problem is that this series never had an arc. If the final episode should be about Jen's finally finding peace with her new identity and with how the world around her perceives her, that needed to be more consistently developed across the episodes with plots that consistently touch upon this. Instead, the series ran wild through only nine episodes with no center whatsoever, and any arcs we might have gotten inadvertently invested in never went anywhere: *What was the point of Jen's rivalry with Titania? it never went anywhere; it never got reconciled. *Where's the big climax to Jen's struggle with her workplace and her boss? She loses her job, moves on quickly, and never gets any kind of resolution with the old, self-interested white male who never saw her as anything more than a mascot. *Why was Emil Blonsky helping out the bad guys? Where the hell was that going, and why did we never get any kind of answer to it? *What happened to Josh? The guy that broker her heart, betrayed her, and nearly ruined her life because he was part of this group is then suspiciously absent when we finally infiltrate the group in the final episode? *And if we want to go all meta and actually take on toxic masculinity in the fandom, don't pull punches in the final moments and let that fanbase off the hook, the "real" villain in handcuffs. Send a real message. And there's more than that. So many instances of leaping over plot points just to get where the writers wanted to get. It's lazy as hell. Fortunately, Tatiana Maslany kicks so much butt that the show was still worth watching, and I'll admit that I really enjoyed the fourth wall breaking. I just don't think it was used well beyond She-Hulk climbing out of the Disney+ menu. Finally, that post-credits scene desperately needed to end with Wong sitting on the couch, the Abomination on one side and Madisynn on the other, chatting about the Real Housewives while stuffing their faces with popcorn. About the only one here I have an answer for is the Blonsky question: I don't think he was helping the bad guys. From the vague points he was raising about how they achieved some big goals lately I don't think he really knew what kind of group he was talking to, he was just hired as a motivational speaker and was giving a general "dream big, live big!" kind of speech that you'd get at any corporate team building meeting and it sounded like he had been doing a lot of those. The rest? Yeah, I think it missed some of its potential by not always sticking to Jen's emotional journey. It was there in some episodes, like the wedding episode, but I don't think it was built up as well as it could have been and it certainly wasn't resolved well at the end. Sure, that line with the reporter was great but it felt a little unearned. But like you said Tatiana(and to an extent the supporting cast) are awesome so despite the short comings the show was really fun. And I would have loved your end scene. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2022 13:34:53 GMT -5
About the only one here I have an answer for is the Blonsky question: I don't think he was helping the bad guys. From the vague points he was raising about how they achieved some big goals lately I don't think he really knew what kind of group he was talking to, he was just hired as a motivational speaker and was giving a general "dream big, live big!" kind of speech that you'd get at any corporate team building meeting and it sounded like he had been doing a lot of those. I'd accept that explanation if it weren't for the fact that he chose to violate his parole and become The Abomination for them, which would seemingly have nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with criticizing the new female version of The Hulk. And this all implies that he really did become Abomination last time around when his inhibitor sensor "malfunctioned," suggesting he has met with this group more than once. This just really bugs me. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 17, 2022 13:48:01 GMT -5
About the only one here I have an answer for is the Blonsky question: I don't think he was helping the bad guys. From the vague points he was raising about how they achieved some big goals lately I don't think he really knew what kind of group he was talking to, he was just hired as a motivational speaker and was giving a general "dream big, live big!" kind of speech that you'd get at any corporate team building meeting and it sounded like he had been doing a lot of those. I'd accept that explanation if it weren't for the fact that he chose to violate his parole and become The Abomination for them, which would seemingly have nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with criticizing the new female version of The Hulk. And this all implies that he really did become Abomination last time around when his inhibitor sensor "malfunctioned," suggesting he has met with this group more than once. This just really bugs me. I think he pretty much copped to that, that he always gave speeches to groups as Abomination. And I didn't see it as pointing to being sympathetic to anti-she hulk views as the message of "Hey, I used to just be a rage monster but I learned to make this work for me so you can beat your problems too!" fits well for him. Now, the misogynists see it differently, they invited him because Abomination is who they want to be, they want to be the rage monster and be able to put she-hulk in her "place" but nothing about his speech sounded like he was aware of that. But yeah, he was definitely violating his parole and he did know it which is why he accepted his renewed prison sentence. For me, that's the only way it makes sense, if he was really in league with the bad guys wouldn't he have tried to escape when he was busted for his parole violation? Or atleast look angry that he was busted? Instead he signs the paper willingly and peacefully returns to custody, which only makes sense if he was honestly a changed person. He's just a change person that violated his parole. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2022 14:11:03 GMT -5
I'd accept that explanation if it weren't for the fact that he chose to violate his parole and become The Abomination for them, which would seemingly have nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with criticizing the new female version of The Hulk. And this all implies that he really did become Abomination last time around when his inhibitor sensor "malfunctioned," suggesting he has met with this group more than once. This just really bugs me. I think he pretty much copped to that, that he always gave speeches to groups as Abomination. And I didn't see it as pointing to being sympathetic to anti-she hulk views as the message of "Hey, I used to just be a rage monster but I learned to make this work for me so you can beat your problems too!" fits well for him. Now, the misogynists see it differently, they invited him because Abomination is who they want to be, they want to be the rage monster and be able to put she-hulk in her "place" but nothing about his speech sounded like he was aware of that. But yeah, he was definitely violating his parole and he did know it which is why he accepted his renewed prison sentence. For me, that's the only way it makes sense, if he was really in league with the bad guys wouldn't he have tried to escape when he was busted for his parole violation? Or atleast look angry that he was busted? Instead he signs the paper willingly and peacefully returns to custody, which only makes sense if he was honestly a changed person. He's just a change person that violated his parole. Your question is a valid one, but on the other hand, why violate parole just to soup up his motivational speeches? Seems like the writers just didn't consider motivations for any of the characters in this show beyond Jen. Why do any of them do what they do? Why did Titania come crashing through that wall and terrorize the courthouse? Why did Blonske break parole and what was he doing with those guys if he was going to defend Jen right after? I just don't think they cared enough to consider any of this. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 17, 2022 14:31:14 GMT -5
I think he pretty much copped to that, that he always gave speeches to groups as Abomination. And I didn't see it as pointing to being sympathetic to anti-she hulk views as the message of "Hey, I used to just be a rage monster but I learned to make this work for me so you can beat your problems too!" fits well for him. Now, the misogynists see it differently, they invited him because Abomination is who they want to be, they want to be the rage monster and be able to put she-hulk in her "place" but nothing about his speech sounded like he was aware of that. But yeah, he was definitely violating his parole and he did know it which is why he accepted his renewed prison sentence. For me, that's the only way it makes sense, if he was really in league with the bad guys wouldn't he have tried to escape when he was busted for his parole violation? Or atleast look angry that he was busted? Instead he signs the paper willingly and peacefully returns to custody, which only makes sense if he was honestly a changed person. He's just a change person that violated his parole. Your question is a valid one, but on the other hand, why violate parole just to soup up his motivational speeches? Seems like the writers just didn't consider motivations for any of the characters in this show beyond Jen. Why do any of them do what they do? Why did Titania come crashing through that wall and terrorize the courthouse? Why did Blonske break parole and what was he doing with those guys if he was going to defend Jen right after? I just don't think they cared enough to consider any of this. People violate their paroles all the time for all kinds of reason so I don't think it really needed a deep reason to happen or be believable. It seemed like he was becoming Abomination because it helped him earn a better income. With those crazy wives of his does he really need an income? Maybe not, but it's not difficult to imagine. As to what he was doing with that group I think it goes back to not actually knowing anything about them, which is pretty common for motivational speakers; they're not there because they care about the group, they are appearing because it's a pay check. They take the booking, say some generic, feel good stuff and then leave...and that's exactly what his speech sounded like. He had zero specifics and then generally seemed confused as to why they reacted to Jen the way they did when she appeared. He even helps Jen right before the Hulk shows and starts to explain to Bruce that he isn't the bad guy just before Jen aborts the finale so it seemed pretty obvious that he wasn't with them to me. There were definitely flaws in the show, but I don't think Blonsky's story was one of them. His redemption arc really worked for me and I didn't think there was anything nefarious with his involvement at the end. They played up his appearance there in the teaser for the finale, sure, making you think he was with the anti-She Hulk group but in the episode itself it seemed pretty clear to me that he wasn't. But that's what teasers do, they create drama and suspense; this one wanted to make you think that Blonsky was full of it and had been lying about changing all along but the "twist" was that he actually was a changed guy...and I loved that! |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 17, 2022 14:38:39 GMT -5
I think he pretty much copped to that, that he always gave speeches to groups as Abomination. And I didn't see it as pointing to being sympathetic to anti-she hulk views as the message of "Hey, I used to just be a rage monster but I learned to make this work for me so you can beat your problems too!" fits well for him. Now, the misogynists see it differently, they invited him because Abomination is who they want to be, they want to be the rage monster and be able to put she-hulk in her "place" but nothing about his speech sounded like he was aware of that. But yeah, he was definitely violating his parole and he did know it which is why he accepted his renewed prison sentence. For me, that's the only way it makes sense, if he was really in league with the bad guys wouldn't he have tried to escape when he was busted for his parole violation? Or atleast look angry that he was busted? Instead he signs the paper willingly and peacefully returns to custody, which only makes sense if he was honestly a changed person. He's just a change person that violated his parole. Your question is a valid one, but on the other hand, why violate parole just to soup up his motivational speeches? For the same reason people become influencers and spiritual gurus: money! Blonsky even admitted he did it solely for money. There's never enough money in a capitalist system! (Oops... thwhtguardian beat me to it).True, the writers didn't seem to focus overmuch on characters' motivations (and beyond her motivation, I don't understand how Titania can crash into a courtroom and not end up in jail). But when it comes to Blonsky, I'm sure he didn't break parole just to help those guys. He's probably got many more speaking engagements, and he has a career in the superpowered UFC league (as seen in Shang-Chi and the first episodes). He just wants the perks of being the Abomination without the drawback of being in a jail cell. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 17, 2022 14:57:33 GMT -5
Your question is a valid one, but on the other hand, why violate parole just to soup up his motivational speeches? For the same reason people become influencers and spiritual gurus: money! Blonsky even admitted he did it solely for money. There's never enough money in a capitalist system! True, the writers didn't seem to focus overmuch on characters' motivations (and beyond her motivation, I don't understand how Titania can crash into a courtroom and not end up in jail). But when it comes to Blonsky, I'm sure he didn't break parole just to help those guys. He's probably got many more speaking engagements, and he has a career in the superpowered UFC league (as seen in Shang-Chi and the first episodes). He just wants the perks of being the Abomination without the drawback of being in a jail cell.Which to me is completely understandable, especially as in the movie continuity his whole transformation wasn't some evil plot but something he was ordered to do. Sure, he took more of the formula but he didn't expect to turn into a monster. He's a lot more of a tragic character in the movies than the comics so his turn here was really fun to see. |
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