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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jun 1, 2022 22:14:52 GMT -5
Okay everyone. I need to know what I am missing with Mike Allred's art. It just doesn't connect with me for whatever reason. I heard CGS Tribe gushing about it on the latest previews podcast with the announcement of Superman Space Age. And I've seen his art maybe before, but...I can't understand the appeal? Maybe I'm too ingrained with the likes of someone like Neal Adams, Ivan Reis, Kerry Gammill, or John Buscema where I feel like I can see the years of mastery stacked into each panel. With Allred's art...it all just seems really rudimentary to me. But then at the same time I like some of Steve Ditko which I've heard comparisons too. But even with him I can see the discipline in certain aspects of what I'd say qualifies as great. Help me understand and potentially change my view. Because when I see something like this: I can't fathom why folks gush over something like this:
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Post by Dizzy D on Jun 2, 2022 4:45:53 GMT -5
I don't get the use of these type of threads: Art is subjective. Some people like some things, other people like others. And that's fine. Don't feel the need to like something because others do.
We can't make you suddenly like Allred's art. There is nothing to get, it's a pop-art, brightly coloured artstyle and it is different than others. That's why some people like it and other's don't.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 2, 2022 8:57:10 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with Dizzy. Somebody who’s more of an art person may be able to explain it better but you like what you like. I like Allreds art. It’s retro but modern.
On the other hand, that example you put above Allred (I don’t know who it is) does little to nothing for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2022 12:51:14 GMT -5
His figures are stiff and they all have dead eyes.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 2, 2022 13:28:33 GMT -5
I gotta say that I don't see how anyone can not love this... But everyone likes what they like.
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Post by badwolf on Jun 2, 2022 17:32:21 GMT -5
While I agree with the folks saying "you like what you like" I have to say I don't care for his art either. It just looks off to me, like it's in some kind of uncanny valley, not just between realistic and cartoonish, but also good and bad, and I can't decide which it is. It gives me a weird, uncomfortable feeling.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 2, 2022 19:18:18 GMT -5
I like Allred's art. A lot. It's clear, clean, and dynamic. Reminds me a little of Toth, if not quite as minimalistic.
Cei-U! I summon the seal of approval!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 3, 2022 6:04:51 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with Dizzy. Somebody who’s more of an art person may be able to explain it better but you like what you like. I like Allreds art. It’s retro but modern. On the other hand, that example you put above Allred (I don’t know who it is) does little to nothing for me. I was thinking the same thing about the first example, I looked at it with out scrolling down(and I admit without fully reading the post) and I thought, "Oh man, if that's what Allred's gone with for Superman: Spaceage I completely get the complaint...that's so horribly generic!" And then I was shocked more when that was supposed to be the example of something better than Allred. I like Allred's art. A lot. It's clear, clean, and dynamic. Reminds me a little of Toth, if not quite as minimalistic. Cei-U! I summon the seal of approval! That's precisely why I love Allred's art, like Bruce Timm, Chris Samnee, Darwyn Cooke and Mike Mignola, there is a definite Toth inspired look to Allred's art that really makes his work shine in my eyes.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 3, 2022 7:05:20 GMT -5
I am not a big fan of Allred's art, myself, but I definitely like it better than the first example given up there.
Allred's art is pretty uncommon; it evokes masters like Toth as Cei-U mentioned, and while in some aspects it also resembles the work of certain modern artists who don't go for the Neal Adams-esque photorealistic approach, it remains its own thing. I'd also say that it looks very human, very much alive; I'd call it actual art. By contrast, the first image looks like it could have been drawn by an algorithm. It has plenty of tightly drawn clenched teeth and bulging muscles, but I find it has little heart; just a well-executed formula. Like a glossy photoshopped magazine cover, it's very good at what it does, but I see no particular originality or appeal in it. That being said, this is art... and as has been said many times above, art is in the eye of the beholder. Any style is bound to resonate with someone, somewhere, and to bring them joy; and that is all for the best.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 8:49:53 GMT -5
I am on the fence with Allred. I like some of it and not others. He is a good storyteller and is able to convey a lot through body language and facial expression A skill a lot of super-hero artists lack).
I did not like the first piece (it looks like all the heroes ate peppers way too high on the Scoville scale and are suffering the aftereffects of it while they pose to look like they are answering a call to action). Putting it in the legacy of artists like Neal Adams evokes the same feeling I got form all those writers in the 90s who tried to write like Alan Moore-the took all the wrong lessons from Moore's work and had nowhere near the talent and the result were grotesque works that looked and read more like parodies of Moore's work than following in his wake. That piece to me looks much the same to me, someone who took all the wrong lessons form Adams style and produces work that seems a grotesque parody of it rather than an outgrowth from it.
Adams developed his own style in the context of what worked commercially. A lot who follow imitate Adams to varying degrees of success to be commercially successful but they skipped the step of developing their own style. Allred has done that, but his motivations seem to be other than following the trends. He did not imitate Adams style, but emulated his journey to find his own style and place within the industry. And I may not be a huge fan of everything he does, I respect he is finding his own way not trying to find a place in the industry aping someone else's success.
-M
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Post by shaxper on Jun 3, 2022 9:05:24 GMT -5
I think context matters with Allred. His covers positively POP in contrast to everything else on the shelves. There is an energy and a sense of fun to it. I would never study an Allred panel in depth and admire the fine detail, but the style itself is perfect for light-hearted lunacy and really aids the tone of books like Madman and X-Statix, which are primarily where I have encountered him.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 3, 2022 10:23:07 GMT -5
Though the top artist unquestionably has talent, it also draws a little too much attention to details which doesn't do him any favors. Why do Wonder Woman, Cyborg, and Aquaman all have that same furrow browed/wide opened mouth expression on their faces? Is this something they've practiced during fight training? Where are they? Seems like they're leaping from out of an explosion into space, but why does each hero seem to have their own light source behind them? Batman's behind Superman's light source, Aquaman's behind Cyborg's, Aquaman's in front of Mera's, and so forth. Why are they so uncoordinated? None of them seem focused on the same adversary. Why is Superman wearing armour and what's with all the unnecessary lines on their costumes? There's also nothing about each character which makes me go "THAT's how Superman/Batman/etc. should look! PERFECT!" I mean, you can delineate every muscle but not remember that Superman's supposed to have a spit-curl? Why does this artwork make me ask so many boring questions?
With Allred however, I can tell that's Superman just from the cocked eyebrow and calm demeanor. Allred could have just drawn him from the neck up and I would have recognized him. How? Because a character holding the Earth as it's being ripped apart without resorting to an expression of panic or "NOOOOOOO!" could only be someone with such intelligence and experience that such an event would be a mystery to be explored rather than a "Time to clench my jaw and tense my muscles" moment. There are certain little things artists can do - short-hands, I suppose though I don't mean this derogatorily - that I don't think the audience realizes are having an effect upon them. "Wait - you mean so long as the artist draws a little 'S' over Superman's forward, he's just earned points with you?" Well... yeah. It's iconic, but so is the way that Allred places Superman's emblem almost in the center of his panel below (the one with Supes walking towards the viewer) with the calm, relaxed, but perfectly postured gait, and squinty eyes - the eyes sees that iconic emblem, that naturally relaxed nature despite the comet storm behind him (because, as Grant Morrison once noted, Superman shouldn't have to puff out his chest all the time to suggest power - he's Superman, he could sit on a cloud, with his knee tucked under his arm, and you'd still know you're in the presence of greatness), the way he seems settled even though the ice planet around him seems to shake (what with the ice chunks breaking off to the viewer's left), that tells you, "This could only be Superman".
Allred's art makes me ask questions, too - "What is Clark Kent perturbed by in that panel on the left? What does Pariah seem sad but resigned to? Just what does that cocked eyebrow suggest Superman has already figured out about the threat to Earth and what is still trying to deduce?" Interesting questions.
And frankly, the art pops! His male faces are a little too pretty for my liking - I think it's the lips - but I'd frame Allred's work there and put it on my wall whereas if I did that with the guy above I imagine I'd soon forget it was there.
Not entirely fair that the above artist put a lot of thought into "How would Superman's emblem look from a less common angle than 'dead-on'? How would it reflect light if it were metal?" (and I do appreciate that) whereas Allred seems to have just placed a pre-existing sticker of the emblem onto his artwork for his piece, but the difference is that Allred seems more concerned with storymanship whereas the other guy is just a little too showy.
No doubt that the above guy doesn't have a lot of strengths - I just don't think they're all in the right place. Allred seems to know precisely where the reader's eye will fall though making him feel like he's on my side (and Superman's).
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jun 6, 2022 21:27:21 GMT -5
Interesting responses. Can't say that any have changed my view unfortunately. I still think Allred's art looks like a 12 year old could do the same thing I hate to say. The Toth comparisons are interesting, but that's another one lost on me, as I really like Toth's art, and he seems way more crisp, and towards a realistic style than Allred's pop-art approach. Even with Darwyn Cooke, I feel like I can see the stack of skills that made him a great artist in his own way. Along with Bruce Timm. Those last two a bit more whimsical that I usually go for, but I can roll with it.
Someone earlier said that no one's opinion is going to change my view, but I'd counter that I've had my mind changed before in terms of what type of art appeals to me. Sometimes, it just takes a while of exposure. At the very least, it's worth it to ask others how or why certain aesthetics speak to them, even if it won't benefit the inquirer in the long run personally. I made this post to acquire knowledge, not win a competition. Obviously anyone can like what they want, but that wasn't the point of asking. Also a believer of sometimes getting out of one's comfort zone.
BTW, the first artist I spotlighted is Ivan Reis. He's worked mainly for DC on titles like Green Lantern and Aquaman written by Geoff Johns. One of the bigger names that usually seems to sell DC books.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 7, 2022 6:33:23 GMT -5
Interesting responses. Can't say that any have changed my view unfortunately. I still think Allred's art looks like a 12 year old could do the same thing I hate to say. The Toth comparisons are interesting, but that's another one lost on me, as I really like Toth's art, and he seems way more crisp, and towards a realistic style than Allred's pop-art approach. Even with Darwyn Cooke, I feel like I can see the stack of skills that made him a great artist in his own way. Along with Bruce Timm. Those last two a bit more whimsical that I usually go for, but I can roll with it. Someone earlier said that no one's opinion is going to change my view, but I'd counter that I've had my mind changed before in terms of what type of art appeals to me. Sometimes, it just takes a while of exposure. At the very least, it's worth it to ask others how or why certain aesthetics speak to them, even if it won't benefit the inquirer in the long run personally. I made this post to acquire knowledge, not win a competition. Obviously anyone can like what they want, but that wasn't the point of asking. Also a believer of sometimes getting out of one's comfort zone. BTW, the first artist I spotlighted is Ivan Reis. He's worked mainly for DC on titles like Green Lantern and Aquaman written by Geoff Johns. One of the bigger names that usually seems to sell DC books. Ivan Reis can do good work...just not in the image you provided. I much prefer how his art looked in last year's Batman/Superman for instance: Or anything from his recent stint on Detective Comics. He's great in anything but big splash pages like you posted actually, when he goes for that it just looks way too flat and static but then again I think Perez is really the only artist who's really ever made that kind of image work.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jun 7, 2022 7:09:57 GMT -5
Yeah, given what thwhtguardian just posted, and as someone who likes Ivan Reis' art (I read a few Aquaman stories he illustrated a few years ago that I thought were very well done), I have to say that you didn't do him, or your argument, any favors by posting that image - it's far from his best work and doesn't showcase what he's capable of doing.
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