|
Post by kirby101 on Jan 1, 2022 12:15:07 GMT -5
What "down period" for Kirby are you referring to? And yes, Buscema was the better draftsman Of course I mean when he was in the 80's. I understand that he had vision problems and you could see it in his Captain Victory run. He stayed too long when his skills had diminished. I think Captain Victory gets a bad rap. It was a very fun and well done book. Kirby showed he could still create amazing concepts. Were his skills diminished? Somewhat, but he could still draw breathtaking pages and his story telling skills were still there. It's not Fantastic Four, but it still pretty damn good. I am glad he did it.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jan 1, 2022 12:38:53 GMT -5
I'm a big Kirby fan too , but there is an obvious diminished quality in his art. Notice the left arm coming out of CV's neck.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 13:02:38 GMT -5
I don't know...the more I see work of the "diminished Kirby", it's actually still looking better to me than a lot of the art that was to come in heading into the 90's. Captain Victory looks like fun, I'm going to pick up a few issues.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Jan 1, 2022 13:06:04 GMT -5
He was doing bad covers 10 years before that. I don't think he liked doing covers and didn't put any time in to making them right. I agree that none of the CV covers were very good, but the interior are was still worthwhile. Some of these two page spreads were vintage Kirby.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Jan 1, 2022 13:17:59 GMT -5
I'm a big Kirby fan too , but there is an obvious diminished quality in his art. Notice the left arm coming out of CV's neck. To bad he didn't have Colletta around to "save" his art. One more thing about this, by this time he was working in animation, doing concepts and story boards, I wonder how much of the more loose art of that work transferred to his late style?
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Jan 1, 2022 13:33:09 GMT -5
The penultimate issue of the Korvac saga, marred a bit by the subpar Dave Wenzel artwork. Apparently Wenzel was forced to work from layouts provided by Shooter, is that correct?
I always thought Marvel should pay George Perez to draw the issues he missed from the original scripts and then collect the whole thing with all-Perez art, as it should have been in the first place. I probably would have kept reading the Avengers at the time if he had done the whole Korvac saga and stayed on aftewards.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Jan 1, 2022 13:34:21 GMT -5
Buscema was the better draftsman I think Kirby would agree: In my opinion, Kirby was a much better writer than artist. And he was a superb artist.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Jan 1, 2022 13:35:30 GMT -5
Notice the left arm coming out of CV's neck. That's his shoulder.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Jan 1, 2022 13:43:36 GMT -5
Buscema was the better draftsman I think Kirby would agree: In my opinion, Kirby was a much better writer than artist. And he was a superb artist. Compare YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. The first is an epic visual spectacle... but each time I watch it, it makes LESS sense. The latter gets better every time I watch it. The difference is the writing.
Also compare FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE to YOLT. Way, way better writing on FRWL. I like to use that comparison with Don Heck vs Gene Colan on IRON MAN. In my mind, no question Don Heck was the better writer. (The question too often fails to come up because too many have been brainwashed into thinking SOMEONE ELSE was writing all those stories. No, HE WASN'T.)
In the 1960s, JACK KIRBY was the best writer Marvel had. And if you read FF #6-- one of the few instances where Kirby's DIALOGUE was used without any changes-- you can see how Marvel fans were ROBBED of far-better stories for a whole decade. Kirby should have been allowed to write his own dialogue on his own stories-- ALL the time.
It isn't even just purely the dialogue, it's that the characters' personalities were distorted along the way, and the STORIES themselves kept getting distorted and altered to no good purpose, creating plot holes and continuity errors that were not there in Kirby's writing. And I think nobody on this board knows that better and in more excrutiating detail than Chris Tolworthy.
It's a shame Mike Royer was not available to ink CAPTAIN VICTORY beyond the first 2 issues (done as a single double-length book but published as 2 regular ones). Those are 2 of the BEST-LOOKING Kirby books in that entire period. Steve Oliff also did INCREDIBLE work on the colors. Sadly, the longer Pacific went on, the inks, the colors, the printing and the paper kept changing-- not for the better. None of this was Kirby's fault.
But people KEEP taking every single opportunity to slam Kirby. IT'S SHAMEFUL.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Jan 1, 2022 14:09:26 GMT -5
I think Kirby would agree: In my opinion, Kirby was a much better writer than artist. And he was a superb artist. Compare YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. The first is an epic visual spectacle... but each time I watch it, it makes LESS sense. The latter gets better every time I watch it. The difference is the writing.
Also compare FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE to YOLT. Way, way better writing on FRWL. I like to use that comparison with Don Heck vs Gene Colan on IRON MAN. In my mind, no question Don Heck was the better writer. (The question too often fails to come up because too many have been brainwashed into thinking SOMEONE ELSE was writing all thoese stories. No, HE WASN'T.)
In the 1960s, JACK KIRBY was the best writer Marvel had. And if you read FF #6-- one of the few instances where Kirby's DIALOGUE was used without any changes-- you can see how Marvel fans were ROBBED of far-better stories for a whole decade. Kirby should have been allowed to write his own dialogue on his own stories-- ALL the time.
It isn't even just purely the dialogue, it's that the charactwers' personalities were distored along the way, and the STORIES themselves kept getting distorted and altered to no good purpose, creating plot holes and continuity errors that were not there in Kirby's writing. And I think nobody on this board knows that better and in more excrutiating detail than Chris Tolworthy.
It's a shame Mike Royer was not available to ink CAPTAIN VICTORY beyond the first 2 issues (done as a single double-length book but published as 2 regular ones). Those are 2 of the BEST-LOOKING Kirby books in that entire period. Steve Oliff also did INCREDIBLE work on the colors. Sadly, the longer Pacific went on, the inks, the colors, the printing and the paper kept changing-- not for the better. None of this was Kirby's fault.
But people KEEP taking every single opportunity to slam Kirby. IT'S SHAMEFUL.
Slight problem with your analogy; FRWL and OHMSS are direct adaptations of Fleming's original story and YOLT is pretty much created out of whole cloth, with producers dictating what they want in there. Even so, the script was by Roald Dahl; and, if you view it through the lens of his other work, it is Willy Wonka and the Ninja Factory, which makes it one of the most fun stories (and there is a definite story going, there) in the series, beyond just the visuals. Still, it is writing by committee, instead of adapting for another medium.
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Jan 1, 2022 22:28:11 GMT -5
He was doing bad covers 10 years before that. I don't think he liked doing covers and didn't put any time in to making them right. I agree that none of the CV covers were very good, but the interior are was still worthwhile. Some of these two page spreads were vintage Kirby. He desperately needed someone who could tone down his more "robotic" and "out there" body tendencies, such as Shores in the 60s, and Romita as seen below:
The bodies are definitely all Kirby, but Romita brought Kirby's pencils back from the blocky, and typical of Romita in that decade, embellished or outright replaced the faces of characters with his own (which had become the licensing / house stye of the era).
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Jan 1, 2022 22:34:40 GMT -5
Buscema is he top artist in Marvel, in its history. John Buscema was a great artist, but I would never say he was the best in Marvel's history.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Jan 2, 2022 16:55:56 GMT -5
Great pages, guys. Wish I could offer some British comic pages here Here is one of my favourites. It's a bit of a cheat, because it isn't the particular cliffhanger that I like. it's just the pleasure of a well crafted two place cliffhanger every week. From Cheeky Weekly #1. In my view, Cheeky Weekly is one of the best comics ever made. Just my opinion. But I recently tracked down a lot of the comics that I loved as a child. Most of them are worse than I remember. But Cheeky is even better than I remember. (And yes, I know this page was probably a reprint. I don't care!) EDIT: Another cliffhanger from the same issue. Cheeky Weekly was wonderful!
Which features were those samples from? And have they ever been collected or reprinted in any form?
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Jan 2, 2022 18:43:37 GMT -5
Cheeky Weekly was wonderful!
Which features were those samples from? And have they ever been collected or reprinted in any form? I will PM you. "Cheeky Weekly" was a weekly comic about a character called Cheeky, drawn (and written?) by Frank McDiarmid. Cheeky was just a boy who told jokes - nothing sophisticated here! The comic followed his week, each week. Each day would have a page of him meeting his friends, and that would introduce a strip. On Monday night he read an adventure book, and on Saturday he went to the cinema, hence the two "serious" strips. On Tuesday he would sneak into the attic to look at his Dad's old comics (my favourite part), and other days were similar excuses to show different strips. For me, this was British humour comics at their best: great variety and gentle fun. I don't think they've ever been collected. It wasn't a huge hit: some people have no taste! There was no stand out character like Judge Dredd or Dennis the Menace. That was sort of the point: Cheeky was just an ordinary kid who told jokes and had friends. Just like the readers. That's what made it work. Also, one issue had knitting pattern for his jersey (sweater), so my best friend and I had our own "Cheeky Jumper". Sadly I ruined mine by putting it over the bedside light while I read late at night, and scorched it. Those were the days.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Spaceman on Jan 3, 2022 23:05:37 GMT -5
X-Men #111 was the first issue of the mag that I ever bought (right off the spinner rack) and the cliff-hanger ending did its job - I couldn't wait for the next issue!
|
|