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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 21:48:41 GMT -5
I still even a small number as high as it would be by the end of the year would be off putting for the market the big 2 need to woo though. As it's never been done, there's really no way to know how it would work out unless someone tried it. I question how many folks out there truly won't pick up issue #14 of a series if they haven't already read issues #1-13, or for that matter, #138. On the rare occasion that any of my kids takes an interest in a new book, they give no regard whatsoever to the issue #. It's the cover and the first page that grabs them or doesn't. Of course, they may not be typical of the target demographic but, then again, who is qualified to characterize the reading habits of the new generation? All we can offer is anecdotal evidence. You'd have to be able to find #14 of a series on the shelf, but since the vast majority of comics purchased in the current market are preordered, what's on the cover doesn't matter, it's what's in the solicitation, and no one is going to be able to buy a book that's not on the shelf. And if a retailer sold 20 copies of #13, he's not going to order 21 copies of #14 because there are too many books for retailers to stock each month and none of them are returnable if they don't sell, so the question is not whether a customer will pick u #14 without having read the previous issues, but will a customer preorder #14 without having read the previous 13 issues. The answer is not likely at all. There's a better chance they will preorder a new #1 since it at least seems like it is starting from the beginning (which may or may not be true but the likelihood of someone preordering a #1 is much higher than preordering a #14 if they haven't been reading all along, and the name of the game in selling comics in the current market is preorders not shelf sales, since shelf sales of books are a negligible part of the current marketplace. New customers rarely if ever walk into shops to buy random issues to start reading comics, and retailers cannot afford to tie up operating capital with unsold shelf copies on the odd chance that someone might walk in and buy it. That is the market reality that publishers and retailers are dealing with and all strategies to sell comics in that market have to take that into account. In a mass market with casual customers buying books, sure someone might pick up a #14 and start in the middle. That hasn't been the reality of the direct market in decades though, so you can't plan or build a strategy around that. There is no mass market for comics and there are no casual readers picking up random issues. And anyone coming to comics new that hasn't grown up with them as a periodicals has no desire to start buying periodicals because that is not a format they have ever encountered in anything else and have no attachment to it. If someone new comes to comics they want it in a format that works for them, i.e. either complete or bingeable all at once. Periodicals don't provide that, so a modern consumer coming to comics is not going to randomly pick up a #14, and even in the infinitesimal chance they did, the odds of the retailer having one available are even smaller than that. If we are going to discuss what should happen for comics future and how to best get books into the hands of customers, we have to acknowledge and start with the reality of the way the market is, not some wishful or wistful idea of how it should be or how it was when we started. 90% of comics sold are preorders and what shelf copies do sell, sell to the same customers month in and month out, and retailers order to sell out within a week or two, not to stock back issues because stories will be available to readers in other formats (digital or collected editions) the hamper the sale of back issues beyond the release date window. If a retailer has shelf copies beyond that, either they overordered to meet a minimum threshold for a variant cover, or a pull customer stiffed them and they are stuck with copies they thought were sold. Any question of numbering or marketing has to account for how it will affect preorders first and foremost, not how it will affect random sales of shelf copies to potential new customers (that are most likely non-existent anyways). -M
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 1, 2021 4:40:49 GMT -5
I still even a small number as high as it would be by the end of the year would be off putting for the market the big 2 need to woo though. As it's never been done, there's really no way to know how it would work out unless someone tried it. I question how many folks out there truly won't pick up issue #14 of a series if they haven't already read issues #1-13, or for that matter, #138. On the rare occasion that any of my kids takes an interest in a new book, they give no regard whatsoever to the issue #. It's the cover and the first page that grabs them or doesn't. Of course, they may not be typical of the target demographic but, then again, who is qualified to characterize the reading habits of the new generation? All we can offer is anecdotal evidence. I think most comics make an effort to "catch you up" either with Dialogue or a quick recap in the first page.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,707
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Post by shaxper on Oct 1, 2021 5:13:41 GMT -5
As it's never been done, there's really no way to know how it would work out unless someone tried it. I question how many folks out there truly won't pick up issue #14 of a series if they haven't already read issues #1-13, or for that matter, #138. On the rare occasion that any of my kids takes an interest in a new book, they give no regard whatsoever to the issue #. It's the cover and the first page that grabs them or doesn't. Of course, they may not be typical of the target demographic but, then again, who is qualified to characterize the reading habits of the new generation? All we can offer is anecdotal evidence. You'd have to be able to find #14 of a series on the shelf, but since the vast majority of comics purchased in the current market are preordered, what's on the cover doesn't matter, it's what's in the solicitation, and no one is going to be able to buy a book that's not on the shelf. And if a retailer sold 20 copies of #13, he's not going to order 21 copies of #14 because there are too many books for retailers to stock each month and none of them are returnable if they don't sell, so the question is not whether a customer will pick u #14 without having read the previous issues, but will a customer preorder #14 without having read the previous 13 issues. The answer is not likely at all. There's a better chance they will preorder a new #1 since it at least seems like it is starting from the beginning (which may or may not be true but the likelihood of someone preordering a #1 is much higher than preordering a #14 if they haven't been reading all along, and the name of the game in selling comics in the current market is preorders not shelf sales, since shelf sales of books are a negligible part of the current marketplace. New customers rarely if ever walk into shops to buy random issues to start reading comics, and retailers cannot afford to tie up operating capital with unsold shelf copies on the odd chance that someone might walk in and buy it. That is the market reality that publishers and retailers are dealing with and all strategies to sell comics in that market have to take that into account. In a mass market with casual customers buying books, sure someone might pick up a #14 and start in the middle. That hasn't been the reality of the direct market in decades though, so you can't plan or build a strategy around that. There is no mass market for comics and there are no casual readers picking up random issues. And anyone coming to comics new that hasn't grown up with them as a periodicals has no desire to start buying periodicals because that is not a format they have ever encountered in anything else and have no attachment to it. If someone new comes to comics they want it in a format that works for them, i.e. either complete or bingeable all at once. Periodicals don't provide that, so a modern consumer coming to comics is not going to randomly pick up a #14, and even in the infinitesimal chance they did, the odds of the retailer having one available are even smaller than that. If we are going to discuss what should happen for comics future and how to best get books into the hands of customers, we have to acknowledge and start with the reality of the way the market is, not some wishful or wistful idea of how it should be or how it was when we started. 90% of comics sold are preorders and what shelf copies do sell, sell to the same customers month in and month out, and retailers order to sell out within a week or two, not to stock back issues because stories will be available to readers in other formats (digital or collected editions) the hamper the sale of back issues beyond the release date window. If a retailer has shelf copies beyond that, either they overordered to meet a minimum threshold for a variant cover, or a pull customer stiffed them and they are stuck with copies they thought were sold. Any question of numbering or marketing has to account for how it will affect preorders first and foremost, not how it will affect random sales of shelf copies to potential new customers (that are most likely non-existent anyways). -M You're working very hard to invent a problem here. Okay, so Iron Man #26 is now Iron Man 2021: 42. How in the world will that work with preorders? "Hmmm...The October issue of Iron Man. I'll preorder that." And when it arrives, you have this very cool system for which to know the order in which other books around it "happened". You're telling me the LCS you work at doesn't have any new issues out on the table? Or a few new(ish) issues hanging out on the racks? I frequent four LCSes and every one of them does. The smaller run books don't ever show up in those areas, but enough books do to draw in a casual reader. As for LCSes themselves not drawing in enough casual readers, that really isn't the point here.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 1, 2021 7:35:48 GMT -5
I'm talking about the rare and potential new customer walking into a shop. I've done so with my kids and even my nephew. There have been multiple times when they picked up a book, saw it was #9, and said 'I can't get that, where are the rest?' Based on my small sample size of my kids and their friends I ocasionally give rides to, this is a pretty typical mentally of the netflix/on demand generation of consumption.. they expect the whole thing from the beginning so they don't miss anything. The thought of a random episode/story in the middle of a series is horrifying to them.
Mind you I personally love your idea, I just don't think there's any benefit to the companies to do it.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 1, 2021 7:48:51 GMT -5
Just to kinda branch off a bit (Since I think we've pretty much exhausted that topic)... what do you guys think of comic shops packages groups of books/storylines together? My LCS does it alot.. most often with mini series/events and small press. it's alot like buying a trade (he generally slightly discounts it as well.. but not much... like 6 $3.99 books for $20 kind of discount), but getting the single comics. Makes me happy to be able to help him clear inventory, and get a whole story... lot of the stuff he does it with doesn't have a trade.
What he doesn't have is a $1 bin (or any kinda of discount bin).. though he did break one out when he did an 'event' for the Black Widow movie..those are definitey my fave.
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Post by brutalis on Oct 1, 2021 8:08:25 GMT -5
Just to kinda branch off a bit (Since I think we've pretty much exhausted that topic)... what do you guys think of comic shops packages groups of books/storylines together? My LCS does it alot.. most often with mini series/events and small press. it's alot like buying a trade (he generally slightly discounts it as well.. but not much... like 6 $3.99 books for $20 kind of discount), but getting the single comics. Makes me happy to be able to help him clear inventory, and get a whole story... lot of the stuff he does it with doesn't have a trade. What he doesn't have is a $1 bin (or any kinda of discount bin).. though he did break one out when he did an 'event' for the Black Widow movie..those are definitey my fave. The LCS I used before Covid did both these ideas. He had a table (6 boxes) for $1 issues near the entrance and then at the middle of the shop was a book shelf with discount 5-10 issue collected discounts of series. Oddly they were NOT big sellers he told me. It was ALWAYS a few of us "older" collectors browsing through the $1 boxes and NEVER kids. The collected issues sat on the shelf with only an occasional sale. He said the collected issues sold more often than not due to a "hot" issue found within the bundle, or if he did a major price cut.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 9:14:16 GMT -5
You'd have to be able to find #14 of a series on the shelf, but since the vast majority of comics purchased in the current market are preordered, what's on the cover doesn't matter, it's what's in the solicitation, and no one is going to be able to buy a book that's not on the shelf. And if a retailer sold 20 copies of #13, he's not going to order 21 copies of #14 because there are too many books for retailers to stock each month and none of them are returnable if they don't sell, so the question is not whether a customer will pick u #14 without having read the previous issues, but will a customer preorder #14 without having read the previous 13 issues. The answer is not likely at all. There's a better chance they will preorder a new #1 since it at least seems like it is starting from the beginning (which may or may not be true but the likelihood of someone preordering a #1 is much higher than preordering a #14 if they haven't been reading all along, and the name of the game in selling comics in the current market is preorders not shelf sales, since shelf sales of books are a negligible part of the current marketplace. New customers rarely if ever walk into shops to buy random issues to start reading comics, and retailers cannot afford to tie up operating capital with unsold shelf copies on the odd chance that someone might walk in and buy it. That is the market reality that publishers and retailers are dealing with and all strategies to sell comics in that market have to take that into account. In a mass market with casual customers buying books, sure someone might pick up a #14 and start in the middle. That hasn't been the reality of the direct market in decades though, so you can't plan or build a strategy around that. There is no mass market for comics and there are no casual readers picking up random issues. And anyone coming to comics new that hasn't grown up with them as a periodicals has no desire to start buying periodicals because that is not a format they have ever encountered in anything else and have no attachment to it. If someone new comes to comics they want it in a format that works for them, i.e. either complete or bingeable all at once. Periodicals don't provide that, so a modern consumer coming to comics is not going to randomly pick up a #14, and even in the infinitesimal chance they did, the odds of the retailer having one available are even smaller than that. If we are going to discuss what should happen for comics future and how to best get books into the hands of customers, we have to acknowledge and start with the reality of the way the market is, not some wishful or wistful idea of how it should be or how it was when we started. 90% of comics sold are preorders and what shelf copies do sell, sell to the same customers month in and month out, and retailers order to sell out within a week or two, not to stock back issues because stories will be available to readers in other formats (digital or collected editions) the hamper the sale of back issues beyond the release date window. If a retailer has shelf copies beyond that, either they overordered to meet a minimum threshold for a variant cover, or a pull customer stiffed them and they are stuck with copies they thought were sold. Any question of numbering or marketing has to account for how it will affect preorders first and foremost, not how it will affect random sales of shelf copies to potential new customers (that are most likely non-existent anyways). -M You're working very hard to invent a problem here. Okay, so Iron Man #26 is now Iron Man 2021: 42. How in the world will that work with preorders? "Hmmm...The October issue of Iron Man. I'll preorder that." And when it arrives, you have this very cool system for which to know the order in which other books around it "happened". You're telling me the LCS you work at doesn't have any new issues out on the table? Or a few new(ish) issues hanging out on the racks? I frequent four LCSes and every one of them does. The smaller run books don't ever show up in those areas, but enough books do to draw in a casual reader. As for LCSes themselves not drawing in enough casual readers, that really isn't the point here. If you don't see a problem in the fact the average monthly comic from the big 2 sells under 20K copies and that almost as many comic shops were closing on a regular basis before the pandemic as had closed in the speculator bust and then the pandemic hit, and that readership of monthly periodicals is at an all-time low despite super-heroes being one of the most popular phenomenon in contemporary pop culture, than I don't know what to tell you. Any discussion of the future of comics or what comics should do has to take that as a starting point or its irrelevant and pointless. Discussing how to number comics is the equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It has zero to do with why sales have plummeted over the last 25 years and will do zero to reverse the trend. The only people it matters to are the old time collectors to whom trade dress is more important that actual content. But they are creatures of habit. However their habits include buying more #1 and comics that matter than #14s or in the middle of runs. And if they switch to something new, it's going to be because it is a #1 or a comic that matters. That is the observable behavior trend we have seen through actual sales charts for the past 25 years. Observable sales trends documented in sales charts for 25 years cannot be dismissed as anecdotal because it doesn't fit the narrative about comic fans and buyers that you want. As for what they carry for new book shelves. The lcs I normally go to-two 4 ft shelves for this weeks releases, with an average of 2-3 copies for each title on that shelf. The "older recent issues" shelves are larger and most of what is on there now is pre-pandemic leftovers not current releases. Of stuff from the pandemic era, there is usually not more than 1-2 copies of any issue, and it if is a variant or anything in demand that didn't sell in shop, it's up for sale on ebay within a month of its release because they just cannot afford to keep up with the number of books coming out and have their capital tied up in inventory that doesn't sell long term. Of the other 4-5 shops I visit less frequently it's a similar pattern. Even though the number of titles remains large, the area to display new releases have shrunk and they usually have only 1 or 2 shelf copies if any at all. They all pretty much track their sales regularly using pulls + typical shelf sales to create an order number that is accurate to achieve sell-outs of an issue before the next issue comes out. At most 1 or 2 copies go unsold, and it is a 50/50 proposition if that was the result of an overorder or if it was a pull copy of a customer who dropped the book and didn't buy it or cancelled their pull. Retailers (At least those who are successful) track and know how many copies they sell each and every month, and what percentage of sell through they need to have on each issue they order to turn a profit, and how each unsold copy of a book affects their margins. In many cases, the shelf copies you see are the number of copies they typically sell of the shelf in the window before the next issue comes out that haven't sold yet at the time you see the based on their tracking of sales. Overorders and unsold copies kill margins. The Brain Hibbs calculations is that with other typical operating costs figured in, you need to sell 8 out of every 10 copies ordered to get past break even and turn any kind of profit. Every unsold copy shrinks your margin, and if unsold copies number more than 2 per 10, you lose money carrying that issue. None of this is conducive to carrying shelf copies on the off chance someone new (whether its a new customer or an existing customer trying a new title). This is also why the direct market is not a growth market. It's infrastructure and mechanisms were designed to sell comics to people who already knew what they wanted. It is not a discovery market and was never designed to be. One top of all that, with margins already razor thin for retailers before DC split off from Diamond for Lunar and Marvel left for Random House, they are getting smaller because of those developments. Some smaller publishers (like IDW) have also left Diamond for Random House. Diamonds discount tiers are based on volume of orders. DC leaving meant most retailers orders dropped by 30-40% from Diamond, so their discounts dropped significantly and their margins got smaller. Lunar's discounts were smaller than Diamonds for the biggest accounts, meaning retailers have less profit on books so have less capital to invest in high risk shelf copies they cannot return if they don't sell. The Random House move is too recent to see what its impact is, but that's another large chunk moving away form Diamond orders (often as much as 50% of total orders for some retailers) so Diamond discounts may shrink again (unless Diamond restructures in the new reality) and Random House discounts structures haven't been divulged or leaked to the general public yet. What this does do, in an industry so reliant on preorders, is make it harder for the customer to do preorders. Instead of 1 catalog, they have to look at 3. And some of the customer base, who only buy by brand (Marvel only fans, DC only fans) will never see the other catalogs. and those who are inclined to order regardless of brand have a much more difficult time finding out about what's coming out, which means pre-orders and thus retailer orders will become smaller and that means print runs become smaller as well, because publishers tailor print runs to preorders because they do not carry unsold copies to warehouse any longer either. But I think the largest issue in these discussions is that long time fans often have an emic POV when it comes to comics and get caught up in what works for collectors or what worked in the past. But those are the things that have resulted in comics being in the position they are in, they are not a solution to it. But they are also the most resistant to etic perspectives or solutions that will alter the traditional way comics have been done. It makes almost every one of these discussions run around in circles covering the same ground over and over again, while in reality sales continue to shrink, and the entropy gets harder to escape. -M
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Post by tonebone on Oct 1, 2021 9:28:44 GMT -5
Just to kinda branch off a bit (Since I think we've pretty much exhausted that topic)... what do you guys think of comic shops packages groups of books/storylines together? My LCS does it alot.. most often with mini series/events and small press. it's alot like buying a trade (he generally slightly discounts it as well.. but not much... like 6 $3.99 books for $20 kind of discount), but getting the single comics. Makes me happy to be able to help him clear inventory, and get a whole story... lot of the stuff he does it with doesn't have a trade. What he doesn't have is a $1 bin (or any kinda of discount bin).. though he did break one out when he did an 'event' for the Black Widow movie..those are definitey my fave. That's a great idea. I remember as a kid, buying one of those Whitman/Gold Key 3-packs at the grocery store that had the entire 3 issue run of the Flash Gordon movie adaptation... all 3 issues! It was a great feeling to get them all at once.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,707
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Post by shaxper on Oct 1, 2021 9:32:15 GMT -5
You're working very hard to invent a problem here. Okay, so Iron Man #26 is now Iron Man 2021: 42. How in the world will that work with preorders? "Hmmm...The October issue of Iron Man. I'll preorder that." And when it arrives, you have this very cool system for which to know the order in which other books around it "happened". You're telling me the LCS you work at doesn't have any new issues out on the table? Or a few new(ish) issues hanging out on the racks? I frequent four LCSes and every one of them does. The smaller run books don't ever show up in those areas, but enough books do to draw in a casual reader. As for LCSes themselves not drawing in enough casual readers, that really isn't the point here. If you don't see a problem in the fact the average monthly comic from the big 2 sells under 20K copies and that almost as many comic shops were closing on a regular basis before the pandemic as had closed in the speculator bust and then the pandemic hit, and that readership of monthly periodicals is at an all-time low despite super-heroes being one of the most popular phenomenon in contemporary pop culture, than I don't know what to tell you. This is marginally related to my initial post at best, mrp. I'm not trying to fix the industry, and my idea isn't really related to the current state of the industry at all. I'm not sure why you feel the need to make these connections when I've already demonstrated that my idea need not be a hindrance to sales (nor am I suggesting it would improve them all that much). If we are going to discount every idea about modern day comics that doesn't acknowledge and present a solution to the industry's sorrows, there's going to be very little left to say.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 9:32:19 GMT -5
Just saw this in an article about Diamonds sales 2021 vs. 2019 (2020 was an aberration because of pandemic closures) that got picked up by Bleeding Cool
Sales are up. There's growth in sales here (as in every other hobby market and entertainment market) due to the pandemic leaving people looking for things to do while at home. But if you cross-reference these growth tallies with sales data on average copies sold of individual books, units moved are not increasing for periodical books. Price points are up, hence the are generating more revenue while selling fewer units. But the major growth is in trading cards (a pandemic phenomenon) not in comic sales, and collected editions have seen much larger growth than individual issue sales.
Just for reference, a switch from $2.99 to $3.99 or $3.99 to $4.99 accounts for much of the comic sales 19.5% increase in sales while selling the same number of units since the percentage increased measures dollars sold not units sold.
The article also summarizes some of the difficulties faced by retailers with the shifts in distributors that I mentioned above.
-M
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Post by badwolf on Oct 1, 2021 14:10:35 GMT -5
Just to kinda branch off a bit (Since I think we've pretty much exhausted that topic)... what do you guys think of comic shops packages groups of books/storylines together? My LCS does it alot.. most often with mini series/events and small press. it's alot like buying a trade (he generally slightly discounts it as well.. but not much... like 6 $3.99 books for $20 kind of discount), but getting the single comics. Makes me happy to be able to help him clear inventory, and get a whole story... lot of the stuff he does it with doesn't have a trade. What he doesn't have is a $1 bin (or any kinda of discount bin).. though he did break one out when he did an 'event' for the Black Widow movie..those are definitey my fave. The bundles are a great idea. The only thing I don't like is not being able to look at each issue for condition. The put a label on with something general like "high grade" but you know...
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 1, 2021 14:23:54 GMT -5
The idea of the bundles is definitely to read the story, so I don't think condition enters in, though at my lcs he bundles them with each book bagged and boarded. They seem to do pretty well... I'm purchased maybe 6 or 7 of them (usually $15-$25) during slow weeks... like last time I had a slow week (2 books) I picked up the 'Jules Verne's Lighthouse' series Image did. I know there have been a several times where I've had one scoped out for next time and it's been gone, so I can't be the only one that buys them
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Oct 2, 2021 8:53:49 GMT -5
I rather like it when a store sells a complete arc or mini-series in a bundle. I've bought quite a few minis like that over the years, including Kingdom Come, Jonah Hex: Riders of the Worm, Sebastian O, Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage, Robo-Hunter, Judge Dredd: The Judge Child Quest among others.
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Post by MDG on Oct 2, 2021 15:21:10 GMT -5
I rather like it when a store sells a complete arc or mini-series in a bundle. I've bought quite a few minis like that over the years, including Kingdom Come, Jonah Hex: Riders of the Worm, Sebastian O, Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage, Robo-Hunter, Judge Dredd: The Judge Child Quest among others. That's how I was able to get Marvels after back issues disappeared. A LCS had 0-4 in a pack for $20. On the other hand, I have a bunch of sets in my sell stack and get no interest.
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