|
Post by kirby101 on Sept 28, 2021 8:22:36 GMT -5
Excellent post lhosmond. I am sorry if I gave the impression that Chis Tolworthy said Stan did nothing. He did not. I was reacting to the common idea that is prevalent now (even on our august boards). I was just posting my thoughts on Tolworthy's dissection of FF#1. He fully admits his work is speculative, not definitive, so it is more of continuing the discussion than a criticism.
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Sept 28, 2021 9:15:04 GMT -5
I've long held to the belief that FF #1's Mole Man segment was a generic Atlas monster story severely doctored and plastered on the end of the FF origin story. The obvious art revisions alone make that clear, and we can still piece together a sensible monster story that doesn't involve super-powered heroes from the fragments of the original that ended up included in the published work, while the published version is disjointed and nonsensical. I've also held that Kirby's Hulk stories were rescripted to drastically change his intent; I don't think anyone can argue that the Hulk wasn't literally flying and that Stan added text to change that, unconvincingly, changed that to "leaping", for example.
What was most remarkable and new to me were the hypotheses that Kirby's first drawn Iron Man story was the actual first created story and origin for the character, and that Dr. Doom's origin was drastically revised through the script. While Tolworthy's speculations on the details may be wrong in some ways--and I think he admits to that possibility--I am convinced that his hypotheses are generally correct.
In the Doom origin, way too much is conveyed only in the text. If Kirby intended there to be a sorcerous mother in the tale, for example, there's no question (in my mind) that he would have drawn her, which tells me that Jack was either: a) drawing from only the barest outline of a plot that left out critical details b) ignoring parts of the plot outline, forcing Stan to re-insert stuff that Jack failed to include c) essentially plotting it himself as he drew, leaving Stan to alter things--as best as he could without art changes--that he didn't agree with in the text
Of those options, b) seems the least likely, and a) and c) may practically amount to the same thing. An outline that's too broad is not what I call a plot, it's more of a direction. As a fan starting in the 70's, I was always left with the implication from Stan's descriptions that his "Marvel Method" started with detailed plots, an option b) scenario, but between the original art evidence and things like Stan's admission in a 60's Bullpen Bulletin that Kirby, Heck, and Ayers were also great "story men" who could come up with the plots themselves, leaving Stan to start with already-penciled pages, lend confidence to some blend of a) and c). Whether Kirby intended Doom to be a homunculus, I don't know, but reading the story with the possibility that Stan was revising the details in the text, it's readily apparent that Kirby was illustrating a story that was significantly different than established canon.
That wasn't too surprising, but looking at the second-published Iron Man story with the possibility that it was the initial stab at an origin was, and Tolworthy's argument was strong. I can understand why Stan would have rejected it for a more action-packed origin, but I'm convinced that Kirby's installment came first, and that he envisioned quite a different origin. If so, he either wasn't working from a detailed plot outline or Stan came up with a less-than-dynamic origin and then thought better of it. I lean more towards the version that matches up with the well-known Kirby Spider-Man scenario: Stan wasn't satisfied with what Kirby came up with and had someone else do another attempt. In this case, though, Kirby's story was still usable, with script changes.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Sept 28, 2021 13:23:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Sept 28, 2021 13:28:09 GMT -5
A comment I posted on Michael Hill's FB page:
"I was passing this on to my friend in Wales (a big Gerry Anderson fan) when I made note of some of the details in FANTASTIC FOUR #1. Specifically, how "the valley of diamonds" was really a radiaoactive waste dump that not only created all the giant monsters, but also BLEW UP at the end. And I said... "Gee, JUST like the pilot of 1999". Another in a growing list of Jack Kirby-Gerry Anderson connections. It's pretty obvious to me Anderson was a Kirby fan, even though I've never heard him say so. TOO MANY "coincidences". (S.H.I.E.L.D. / S.H.A.D.O., Heli-Carrier / Spectrum Cloudbase, etc.)"
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Sept 28, 2021 16:56:09 GMT -5
Quick and very rough stab at recreating the original "Mole Man" story, which I believe was created prior to FF #1, and was not originally intended to be a Fantastic Four story at all, but a typical Atlas monster story. Atomic plants throughout the world are being swallowed into the ground, and the soldiers see a giant monster at the site of the most recent collapse. The usual Atlas scientist hero is able to trace the radiation (or seismic activity), and travels with his aide to the island that provides access to the Mole Man's realm. They encounter a monster, and fall down beneath the Earth, where the Mole Man puts them in hazard suits because that's where he's stored the radioactive material he has stolen. He tells the pair his origin, and (missing from the published material) explains that the radioactive waste is used to create his monsters. The scientist fights back, but Mole Man summons one of his giant monsters. They flee, escaping just in time as the atomic waste blows the island to bits. The final tier in the page below was published on a different page. I think that this page was chopped into two pieces, as the final panel, as composed below, is more suitable as the final panel of a page, encouraging the reader to turn the page to see what's so alarming. . I think Ben may be inserted into panel 1, or is pasted over a "regular guy". I think it was only two men originally on the island. Either panels were entirely redrawn or male figures were turned into Sue. Notice "Reed"'s stretched arm in panel five looks awkwardly drawn in. The "Valley of Diamonds" makes no sense. You wouldn't need to don hazmat suits to deal with glare, but you would if this was a pile of radioactive fuel. The re-drawing of the fuel into diamonds looks very, very crappy. Kirby would have done better if that's what he had intended. Ben and Sue's superfluous actions in the story would have been added for the conversion into an FF story, probably replacing other content. . . If this was a Fantastic Four story, Reed would have handled this duel using his powers. Last panel was probably the approach of some of Mole Men's other monsters, not Ben and Sue. Notice the defensive postures that the "Reed" and "Johnny" characters are adopting. Panel 2 alone is sufficient evidence that this material underwent some drastic artistic revisions. The monster drawing may have been in the original, but no way would Kirby have drawn the four characters into a tiny little box in the floor grid. This looks like crap. Again, we're probably missing out on content, jumping to the final page. The first panel may be a new addition to the original material, as well as the almost abstract scene of the Torch's trail in the cavern. If Jack Kirby wanted to show a flaming man causing a cavern entry to collapse, I think he would have done a much clearer job of depicting just that. I suspect the original didn't have flames, but had figures running through the tunnel, and rather than entirely re-draw the panel, they just stuck the flames in there and relied on the text to convey what was supposedly happening. .
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Sept 28, 2021 17:33:18 GMT -5
I find it pretty amazing that Jack and Stan could turn a standard monster mag story into the greatest hero team ever. As cobbled together as it might have been, it certainly connected with the readers and allowed them to build on it to create Fantastic Four we came to know.
I commend M W on his fine effort.
|
|
|
Post by MWGallaher on Sept 28, 2021 21:00:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the commendation. I did just dash it off--it'd be fun to do a more careful speculative restoration some time. I think it's safe to presume that if the hypothesis that FF #1 incorporated and revised an unused monster story, said monster story was probably not one of their best efforts in that genre, and maybe that's why it was on the shelf. I wish we had the original pages, because there are many mysteries in the first half of the book as well, with many panels apparently not drawn by Kirby. But FF #1 was obviously a success, in spite of the many weaknesses of that debut issue, even if aspects of it don't hang together under scrutiny.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Sept 28, 2021 21:13:15 GMT -5
My first exposure was in FF ANNUAL #7, which only contained the 2 Mole Man chapters. LOVED it.
Many years later, when I read the entire issue in another reprint, it seemed non-sensical and totally-disjointed. Which, in retrospect, makes sense.
FF and ASM apparently share that both features were originally intended to be part of the "anthology" mags, hence the shorter chapters and such.
Here's what I think. Once Martin Goodman finally (3 years late) accepted Kirby's urging to revive superheroes, the origin chapter was done. "Ye editor" seemed obsessed with putting origins first, but they don't always have to be. I suspect if the Mole Man would have appeared in, say, HALF of an anthology book, that the origin would have been in the next issue.
Now, here's where, to me, it REALLY gets interesting. The entire first chapter makes NO SENSE as written. NONE. Reed appears to summon his partners, and they virtually go on a RAMPAGE to reach The Baxter Building, causing panic and destruction, and even an air force attack. WTF? Also... and this is so IRONIC given the decades' worth of B.S. insisting Jack Kirby "couldn't write natural dialogue and needed someone else to do it for him"... the characters' dialogue in that chapter is EXTREMELY awkward and unnatural... as if it was spoken by people to whom English wasn't their first language.
Where am I going with this?
Just suppose the Mole Man story was shown first, followed by the origin "flashback".
Now... cut to the characters rampaging thru New York. What's the NEXT thing we would see right after that?
EXACTLY: a chapter showing that the FF are wanted fugitives who've "turned bad"... but in fact, are being impersonated by ALIEN INVADERS.
That's what I think was really going on when Kirby WROTE that first chapter... it was intended as the lead-in to the SKRULL story. But his editor didn't realize this. Tsk.
Kirby should have been his own editor. And, definitely, allowed to write his own dialogue... since the stories were ALL HIS to begin with... until his boss began to systematically TAMPER with every single one of them... NEVER to good ends.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Sept 29, 2021 7:06:32 GMT -5
Since you admit that Stan Lee wrote all the dialog and often reworked the stories, even if we start with your "Kirby wrote them all" premise. Than we have to accept that Stan was more than just an editor.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Sept 29, 2021 8:02:35 GMT -5
M. W. Gallaher, I think the fact that The Thing was walking around for half the Mole Man story in a hat, overcoat & dark glasses indicates his being The Thing was supposed to be a surprise, which makes it even more obvious 2 The Mole Man chapters were meant to be read FIRST, before the origin story.
Similarly, the 3 IRON MAN stories Jack Kirby wrote & illustrated were all clearly done BEFORE the origin story by Don Heck-- which, itself, was based on an earlier Jack Kirby GREEN ARROW story. Remember, EVERY time it says "Plot by S*** L**", what that means is, he STOLE it from Jack Kirby.
Ye editor's obsession with origins also helped derail NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD. When Marvel expanded the 3 split books to 6 full books, the first issue of each had at least a small origin recap. NICK FURY #1 didn't. So when Frank Springer came around and said HE'd like to do NICK FURY, what happens? Roy "SECRET ORIGINS" Thomas writes a TERRIBLE re-do of STRANGE TALES #135-- which, frankly, wasn't really an "origin" story. Steranko felt interrupting his run would alienate fans, and threatened to leave the book. HE DID.
I bet a lot of people at this board would have their heads EXPLODE if they get around to reading Michael Hill's book. It's EXHAUSTIVELY researched, referencing countless published interviews over decades. There is so much REAL HARD EVIDENCE in there as to exaclty who did what, and it should be the last word on the subject.
Kirby said he wrote the stories, as he "always" did. Early-on, he was writing his own dialogue in the word balloons. It was up to the editor to use them or alter them. this is similar to what Steve Ditko was doing, writing out full scripts on separate sheets of paper which the editor could use or alter at will. The ONE episode "written" by Don Rico reads EXACTLY like a Steve Ditko story from his fanzine work, indicating Rico looked at it, DID NOT CHANGE A SINGLE WORD, and probably wondered, "What the HELL am I even doing here?"
A mystery was how Kirby's OWN DIALOGUE wound up used in FANTSTIC FOUR #6. Ever since I found out this was the case, it really explained to me why that issue was SO MUCH BETTER than all the other ones from that era. Kirby did MUCH-BETTER dialogue than his boss ever could.
Some have argued about Kirby's later "margin notes". Those were done after Kirby got so fed up with having to come into the office and deal with his boss, that he began writing DETAILED DESCRIPTIONS of the story so the guy would know what was going on. It was pointed out by someone that in some instances, the narration followed exactly what Kirby had written, which was never intended to be actual narration, so the effect was the narration telling readers what they could already see on the pages. When Kirby got back to writing his own narration in the 70s, it was often very expressive and poetic, NOT simply describing things you could see in the art.
In EVERY case, the editor's changes were the equivalent of VANDALISM. Readers were genuinely ROBBED of ten years of what should have been FAR-BETTER COMICS, all so one very petty ego-maniac could steal pay for someone else's work.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2021 8:09:39 GMT -5
Since you admit that Stan Lee wrote all the dialog and often reworked the stories, even if we start with your "Kirby wrote them all" premise. Than we have to accept that Stan was more than just an editor. If FF were a project done more in "modern" times with modern job titles/roles, Stan would have filled the role of developer. He didn't originate the material-if there was no Kirby story as a starting point there would be no FF. But he took the original material and guided the development of it before the project was finished. However, as is usually the case with a developer, it is usually someone else doing the grunt work, i.e. the actual creating, first, and they step in to revise and polish it into its final form, essentially midwifing the project until it reaches fruition. Developers often play critical roles in the process of getting a project to market in final form, but they are not the originators or creators of the material. However they have a lot of input into the creative process along the way. Developers have become an important role in bringing collaborative creative projects to market (especially in things like the video game industry) and often get a lion's share of the credit for the project, but they are not the one doing the actual creating or origination of the material/content which comprises the project. To push the time forward-after the Lee/Kirby split, Kirby became the developer of his own material, and there was a noticeable difference in the final products that got to market than previous material he had created (say New Gods vs. FF, Devil Dinosaur vs. Thor or what have you), but Stan really didn't continue in the role of developer moving on eventually to Producer role in Marvel's ventures in other media, mostly because he no longer had creators originating material for him to develop into final products going to market. The Marvel phenomenon needed both to happen. There'd be no Marvel Universe without Stan's midwifing development of all those projects to market putting his stamp on them, but there'd be np projects for him to midwife without Kirby (and Ditko). FF#1 doesn't happen the way it does without Lee developing it. There's nothing for Lee to develop without Kirby originating the story pages that got developed. Kirby creates a story but without Lee it's not the FF we know. Lee however doesn't make FF without Kirby originating the material and being the creative force that he is. There's nothing to develop without creators creating and Lee had nothing to work with without the Kirby creations as raw material. It's a collaborative effort. Without Lee you have a story but it isn't FF. Without Kirby, you have nothing. Marvel as we know it, doesn't exist without both. But just like in modern media, the developer gets the spotlight and the creators often toil in obscurity in the mind of the public. -M
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Sept 29, 2021 8:37:14 GMT -5
The Marvel phenomenon needed both to happen. There'd be no Marvel Universe without Stan's midwifing development of all those projects to market putting his stamp on them, but there'd be np projects for him to midwife without Kirby (and Ditko). FF#1 doesn't happen the way it does without Lee developing it. There's nothing for Lee to develop without Kirby originating the story pages that got developed. Kirby creates a story but without Lee it's not the FF we know. Lee however doesn't make FF without Kirby originating the material and being the creative force that he is. There's nothing to develop without creators creating and Lee had nothing to work with without the Kirby creations as raw material. It's a collaborative effort. Without Lee you have a story but it isn't FF. Without Kirby, you have nothing. Marvel as we know it, doesn't exist without both. But just like in modern media, the developer gets the spotlight and the creators often toil in obscurity in the mind of the public. -M I feel Kirby, Ditko, etc. created the characters and stories, and Lee created "Marvel". That's no small feat, but, unfortunately, fan don;t recognize building a successful company image from, essentially, nothing as "creative" as coming up with the Watcher.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Sept 29, 2021 8:40:35 GMT -5
mrp, I think that is a great assessment.
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Sept 29, 2021 9:36:24 GMT -5
Since you admit that Stan Lee wrote all the dialog and often reworked the stories, even if we start with your "Kirby wrote them all" premise. Than we have to accept that Stan was more than just an editor. Obsessive hatred of Stan Lee coupled with historically inaccurate "facts" is the reason why you're dealing with contradictory positions (thinly veiled ranting). I've read my share of Marvel staff interviews and met some of the now deceased talents, learning how involved and instrumental Lee was in the development of Silver Age Marvel's landmark titles. That collective information leads to the conclusion that any attempt to trash or write him out of the history is the work of low information propagandists, forever bitter that Lee earned his place on the Mount Rushmore of comic creators. All one needs to do is look at the growing power of The Amazing Spider-Man after Ditko's departure to know who (between the two) was maturing the dramatic edge which helped (with Romita's own plotting strengths) turn the character into Marvel's biggest phenomenon. The expected anti-Lee ranting has as much value as cable news pundits pushing easily debunked narratives...and it is very easy to do so.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 29, 2021 17:55:06 GMT -5
Please remember to be excellent to to each other.
|
|