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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 4, 2021 16:51:38 GMT -5
Not sure if DC actually ever bought the comics. In the 70s, they were just licensing the character and the reprints all contained copyright notices for Fawcett. I've heard that DC has recently been issuing C&D's for Comicbookplus for anything Fawcett-era Captain Marvel related, so IDK
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 17:18:28 GMT -5
Not sure if DC actually ever bought the comics. In the 70s, they were just licensing the character and the reprints all contained copyright notices for Fawcett. DC did do a few volumes of the Shazam Archives and at least one Marvel Family Archive. They had announced a Monster Society of Evil reprint, in that same format they did the Kryptonite No More stories, from Superman; but, it never happened. I can't recall hearing an exact reason; but, it sounded like there might have been legal issues, though it might have just been technical problems. I've heard speculation the Monster Society reprint cancellation may have been related to stereotype depictions and they were looking to distance themselves from the content (but not confirmed that was the official reason). Regarding the copyright, Gwandanaland is still going strong with the "public domain" reprints (which are page scans versus proper reprints, but they do seem to try to get better quality). While I have the 5 DC Shazam related Archive editions, I really wanted the Monster Society of Evil and it is a delight to read: I also have a few other editions that have more Mary Marvel content since the DC Archives were light on her character, though I'd really like "proper" releases.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 4, 2021 17:44:46 GMT -5
Not sure if DC actually ever bought the comics. In the 70s, they were just licensing the character and the reprints all contained copyright notices for Fawcett. I've heard that DC has recently been issuing C&D's for Comicbookplus for anything Fawcett-era Captain Marvel related, so IDK Well, they own the trademark on the character and may be just exercising their right to that, as much as any copyright to the actual stories. Edgar Rice Burroughs copyright on the earliest Tarzan and John Carter stories lapsed into the public domain, allowing publishers to put out reprints of them and others to do stories, based on those specific works (Tarzan of the Apes and A Princess of Mars). However, Burroughs, Inc holds a trademark on the character Tarzan. They tried blocking Dynamite from putting out their Tarzan and John Carter comics, but lost in court, since they could show derivation from the public domain material and they did not use Tarzan or John Carter in the title. It is possible that DC may merely be exercising their trademark right to block the use of Captain Marvel, which may exceed their legal rights, if they do not hold the copyright to the stories. Corporations have repeatedly used their 1000 pound gorilla status to intimidate others when they have no real legal right, when it affects their plans, since they can get away with it. They can tie up the little guy in legal maneuverings until they can no longer afford the fight. Marvel tried the same thing with Marvelman, back when Dez Skinn was putting out Warrior Magazine, claiming the name infringed on Marvel's trademark. However, they had no trademark on the name Marvelman and cannot trademark a word like "marvel," for anything other than their corporate name (or as a specific title). I believe they tried this with the makers of Marvel Miracle Oil (a lubricant) and they called their bluff. They did try it with valiant, over X-O Manowar, claiming infringement on X-Men and Valiant called their bluff and Marvel backed down. I would want to see legal proof that DC owns the copyright to the Fawcett materials, before taking them at their word. However, they know they have the financial muscle to block anyone, except Marvel, from messing with the character or the stories. If you ask me, the burden of proof is on DC to show proof of ownership; but, I'm not a lawyer. I don't have a dorsal fin and cartilage, instead of bones. Just kidding! We all know lawyers are mammals, of the Mustelidae family.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 4, 2021 17:50:14 GMT -5
Not sure if DC actually ever bought the comics. In the 70s, they were just licensing the character and the reprints all contained copyright notices for Fawcett. DC did do a few volumes of the Shazam Archives and at least one Marvel Family Archive. They had announced a Monster Society of Evil reprint, in that same format they did the Kryptonite No More stories, from Superman; but, it never happened. I can't recall hearing an exact reason; but, it sounded like there might have been legal issues, though it might have just been technical problems. I've heard speculation the Monster Society reprint cancellation may have been related to stereotype depictions and they were looking to distance themselves from the content (but not confirmed that was the official reason). Regarding the copyright, Gwandanaland is still going strong with the "public domain" reprints (which are page scans versus proper reprints, but they do seem to try to get better quality). While I have the 5 DC Shazam related Archive editions, I really wanted the Monster Society of Evil and it is a delight to read: I also have a few other editions that have more Mary Marvel content since the DC Archives were light on her character, though I'd really like "proper" releases. That's possible, though it didn't stop them from reprinting the Spirit, with Ebony White, not to mention some of their own early stories. There are definitely Japanese caricatures in it, including the villain, Nippo, though as bad as they are, the pale in comparison to Alex Schomburg's covers, for Timely/Marvel! I don't recall if there were any African-American or other racial carictures (can't recall if Steamboat is in the story or not). I've got all the Fawcett stuff on digital, which is good enough for me, though some of that came from those old microfiche releases and are of so-so quality.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 4, 2021 19:31:57 GMT -5
Not sure if DC actually ever bought the comics. In the 70s, they were just licensing the character and the reprints all contained copyright notices for Fawcett. DC did do a few volumes of the Shazam Archives and at least one Marvel Family Archive. They had announced a Monster Society of Evil reprint, in that same format they did the Kryptonite No More stories, from Superman; but, it never happened. I can't recall hearing an exact reason; but, it sounded like there might have been legal issues, though it might have just been technical problems. I've heard speculation the Monster Society reprint cancellation may have been related to stereotype depictions and they were looking to distance themselves from the content (but not confirmed that was the official reason). Regarding the copyright, Gwandanaland is still going strong with the "public domain" reprints (which are page scans versus proper reprints, but they do seem to try to get better quality). While I have the 5 DC Shazam related Archive editions, I really wanted the Monster Society of Evil and it is a delight to read: I also have a few other editions that have more Mary Marvel content since the DC Archives were light on her character, though I'd really like "proper" releases. I might have to buy that at some point, They've also got reprints of Captain Marvel Jr., which I might also have to snag. But when I was looking through the preview pages of Captain Marvel Jr., some of the pages were microfiche ( yuk!)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 20:02:28 GMT -5
I've heard speculation the Monster Society reprint cancellation may have been related to stereotype depictions and they were looking to distance themselves from the content (but not confirmed that was the official reason). Regarding the copyright, Gwandanaland is still going strong with the "public domain" reprints (which are page scans versus proper reprints, but they do seem to try to get better quality). While I have the 5 DC Shazam related Archive editions, I really wanted the Monster Society of Evil and it is a delight to read: I also have a few other editions that have more Mary Marvel content since the DC Archives were light on her character, though I'd really like "proper" releases. I might have to buy that at some point, They've also got reprints of Captain Marvel Jr., which I might also have to snag. But when I was looking through the preview pages of Captain Marvel Jr., some of the pages were microfiche ( yuk!) The quality of the pages definitely can vary quite a bit based on what they have access to. If you are looking for Captain Marvel Jr. specifically, he got the spotlight in one of the DC Archives. While it has gone up in price, it's a very nice edition (classic Mac Raboy art):
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Post by zaku on Jul 5, 2021 6:46:52 GMT -5
Not sure if DC actually ever bought the comics. In the 70s, they were just licensing the character and the reprints all contained copyright notices for Fawcett. DC did do a few volumes of the Shazam Archives and at least one Marvel Family Archive. They had announced a Monster Society of Evil reprint, in that same format they did the Kryptonite No More stories, from Superman; but, it never happened. I can't recall hearing an exact reason; but, it sounded like there might have been legal issues, though it might have just been technical problems. I've heard speculation the Monster Society reprint cancellation may have been related to stereotype depictions and they were looking to distance themselves from the content (but not confirmed that was the official reason). This is the reason that every article on the subject was taken for granted, but I didn't really find any official note from DC...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 7:14:10 GMT -5
I've heard speculation the Monster Society reprint cancellation may have been related to stereotype depictions and they were looking to distance themselves from the content (but not confirmed that was the official reason). This is the reason that every article on the subject was taken for granted, but I didn't really find any official note from DC... After doing a little more digging, here's an excerpt from the link below indicating DC did attribute the cancellation to content (assuming this is an accurate quote): And so comic book retailers have been informed by DC Comics that 'After careful consideration, DC announces that the SHAZAM!: THE MONSTER SOCIETY OF EVIL DELUXE EDITION HC is cancelled due to concerns over its contents. This title will not be resolicited.'
bleedingcool.com/comics/dc-comics-cancels-shazam-the-monster-society-of-evil-hardcover-over-racist-concerns/To your point, codystarbuck , it's not like they haven't published similar content before (including the aforementioned Shazam archives). But I wonder if the release of the movie made them skittish with more casual readers now potentially picking this up versus primarily appealing to the collector niche so to speak.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 5, 2021 10:55:43 GMT -5
This is the reason that every article on the subject was taken for granted, but I didn't really find any official note from DC... After doing a little more digging, here's an excerpt from the link below indicating DC did attribute the cancellation to content (assuming this is an accurate quote): And so comic book retailers have been informed by DC Comics that 'After careful consideration, DC announces that the SHAZAM!: THE MONSTER SOCIETY OF EVIL DELUXE EDITION HC is cancelled due to concerns over its contents. This title will not be resolicited.'
bleedingcool.com/comics/dc-comics-cancels-shazam-the-monster-society-of-evil-hardcover-over-racist-concerns/To your point, codystarbuck , it's not like they haven't published similar content before (including the aforementioned Shazam archives). But I wonder if the release of the movie made them skittish with more casual readers now potentially picking this up versus primarily appealing to the collector niche so to speak. I don't think DC or Marvel has had "casual readers" in decades. This has been a niche market since they put everything into the Direct Market. I suspect it boiled down to the amount of caricature they'd have to edit vs the perceived sales on the book, as most things do with corporations. In regards to reprints, there are scans out there of the entire Fawcett line; but, a good portion of those came from micro-fiche. Back in the early-mid 90s, there was a company that collected a bunch of Golden Age comics, on micro-fiche. You could order the stuff, then view them on a micro-fiche reader, which you could also buy from them, if you didn't have access to one. A lot of the Golden Age material I have run across came from those releases, though I have seen others floating around out there. The Archives, originally, used a process done by Greg Theakston, where, a chemical solution was applied to original comic book pages (the published comics, not the original art), which bleached out the color, leaving the line art. They then re-colored the pages. It was a slow and costly process, which is why the Archive program didn't just dump a ton of books on the market (also used on the Marvel Masterworks books). They switched to other methods, especially after scanning technology and digital color and image systems became more sophisticated; but, even then, there is a cost outlay involved and the bottom line is that if sales aren't strong enough to justify the cost, they won't pursue it. DC and Marvel both petered out on some series, because sales hadn't been that great on the earlier volumes. They've done other forms since; but, perceived sales is still a big factor in these releases.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 11:14:02 GMT -5
Great background on the history, including production/restoration methods, of those reprint volumes! It makes sense as you describe the "cost intensive to produce versus overall actual demand" economics of it all.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 5, 2021 15:28:46 GMT -5
So, now we get to the first crossover between Superman and Captain Marvel....................... Sort of. Superman #276Okay; this is the superhero equivalent of the NWA World Champion vs the AWA World Champion or WWF Champion.... Guess that makes Ric Flair Superman. I'd put Captain Marvel with the AWA. Marvel is probably more the equivalent of the WWF. So, that makes Spider-Man Bob Backlund. Creative Team: Elliot S! Maggin-story, Curt Swan & Bob Oskner-art, Julie Schwartz-editor. GCD lists it as Swan Pencils and Oskner inks; but, some of the panels suggest it was more complicated than that, as the Captain Marvel figure looks more Oskner than Swan. Synopsis: In Metropolis, in a narrow, dank alley, a kid materializes, like the Terminator, though clothed. The kid is Willie Fawcett (looking pretty young there, Captain Billy) and he sees Superman roar by, overhead. Willie asks a stranger who that is and the person is surprised the kid didn't know Superman. Willie learns that bus fare is more than a nickel (the exorbitant price of 35 cents!) and his crew cut is 20 years out of date, according to two modern shmoes, who look nothing like anyone I ever saw, in the early 70s). He arrives at the Galaxy Communications building and sees Superman chasing a giant white flying lizard. It's an illusion, to distract from a crime. Willie sees a helicopter swoop down on an armored car and he reacts by rubbing his magic belt buckles (!) and uttering the word "THUNDER". With a flash of lightning and the massive sound of SHABOOM! There, in the sky is Captain Thunder.... Wait.....what? To make matters weirder, Captain Thunder doesn't stop the crime, he lifts the armored car into the air and tells the hoods to follow in the helo! Superman disposes of the illusion, then spots Captain Thunder with the armored car. he flies up to ask "what up, dude?" and gets kicked by Captain Thunder. Well, now it's on and the ref calls for the bell. Superman punches Cap in the gut and Cap hurls the armored car at him, then says THUNDER and changes back to Willie Fawcett, who utters his catch phrase, "Creepies!" and has no memory of the fight. Superman sets down the armored car and goes looking for the promoter to get a rematch (always tease the match before delivering it, kids). Meanwhile, Willie goes into Galaxy and up to Clark Kent's office and says he needs his help to get a message to Superman. He shows him a picture of Captain Thunder and explains that they are sort of the same person. he explains. He was sent to a summer camp, for orphans (like Meatballs, only even more pathetic). Willie is sitting in a blanket, outside a tent (must have been kicked out after his supper of franks 'n' beans), when an owl comes along and hoots at him. He follows it to a rock face of a cliff, which opens up and lets him inside, where he finds an old native shaman... He is Merokee, last of the shaman's of the Mohegan. He dubs Willie noble in spirit and endows him with the 7 Spiritual Powers: Tornado: Power Hare: Speed Uncas: Bravery Nature: Wisdom Diamond: Toughness Eagle: Flight Ram: Tenacity So, he gets his powers from a weather phenomena, 3 animals, a gemstone and a fictional character. Julie assumes the audience is filled with morons and reminds us that Uncas was a great Mohegan shaman. Guess Chingachgook wasn't worthy enough. So, does his enemy draw power from Magua? Anyway, Merokee gives Willie a magic belt, with a cool lightning bolt buckle ($8.95, in the gift shop) and tells him to rub the buckle, as he repeats THUNDER and he is transformed. Merokee flies off to a far better place (he's got a time share, in Miami) and Captain Thunder fights crime, on his world, including against a bald scientist. In his last mission, he fights the Monster League of Evil.... ...and then crossed the dimensional barrier; but, ended up on Earth-1, in Metropolis, where there is no record of Captain Thunder. Clark mentions that the picture matches the description of the super powered guy who helped the robbers and Willie says that Monster League must have put some kind of spell on Captain Thunder. Clark believes Willie, though he is undecided about his being Captain Thunder. he and Lois take Willie to the police station, to see if there is a Willie Fawcett reported missing. Clark spots a crime occurring and makes an excuse to leave. Willie and Lois notice the police cordoning off the area to catch escaped prisoners. Willie changes, then the big match is on. Superman leads him up into the air and through storm clouds and freezes the cloud behind him, but Captain Thunder breaks through. Cap throws Superman through a mountain and the Superman makes a comeback and hits Captain Thunder with the top portion of the mountain! They bash into each other and create craters in the ground. They take to the skies again and Superman goes into a storm cloud and generates lightning, which tickles Captain Thunder. Cap goes back to the storm cloud to slap Superman with thunder and Superman grabs his hand and rubs it on the belt buckle, as he says thunder, and he is transformed into Willie. Superman catches him and lands him safely, then puts a half nelson on him and tells him to do the switch. He transforms, but Captain Thunder is held tight by Superman, in a full nelson. Superman holds onto him like Superstar Billy Graham and, eventually the Wisdom of Nature gives Captain Thunder the answer and he is able to return home, to his world, safe and mentally sound. Clark treats Lois to dinner to make up for ditching her and losing her a story. He is lost in thought, comparing himself to Captain Thunder, as he drowns his steak in ketchup. Thoughts: Not the most epic meeting of titans; but a pretty entertaining story from a pretty decent era of Superman stories. Elliot S! Maggin was the best Superman writer, of the period (in my book, one of the best ever) and he wrote some decent Captain Marvel. The meeting is a bit contrived and, it isn't captain Marvel, of Earth-S, but Captain Thunder, of Earth-PC (plot convenience). The Monster League of Evil is pretty good, made up entirely of the Universal Monsters, making it a literal Monster League. Maggin doesn't really explain how they put a spell on him, though. The Native American aspect is a nice twist on the gimmick, though attempting to get an acronym out of THUNDER is too much of a stretch. They should have done a reverse of this, in the Shazam comic, where captain Marvel faces a bewitched Superior Man, or something. Of course, this isn't the first pseudo-meeting, since we had the classic Captain Marble vs Superduperman, from Mad #4..... This was not revisited and we would, later, get a meeting of the JLA/JSA and the Marvels (and the Fawcett Squadron of Justice), as well as Superman vs Shazam, which we will cover later. Now, there is a Shazam issue, with the Man of Steel, but it's even more of a swerve than this one.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 5, 2021 15:32:31 GMT -5
ps This was booked like every title vs title match I ever saw: no real conclusion and both champions retain their title (Flair vs Backlund ended in a DQ, where titles couldn't change hands and Flair vs Martel, in Japan, was a draw). Superman kind of wins, but, Captain Thunder did not submit, so the title does not change.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Jul 5, 2021 17:14:42 GMT -5
I know I've read about it somewhere, but why the need for "Captain Thunder" at this point with DC publishing Shazam!?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 5, 2021 17:52:16 GMT -5
I know I've read about it somewhere, but why the need for "Captain Thunder" at this point with DC publishing Shazam!? In this interview (briefly), Elliot Maggin relates that it was never intended to be Captain Marvel, something about his concept being that Superman and captain Marvel's universes weren't exactly accessible, directly. I suspect, editorially, they didn't want either losing and, there might have been approval needed from Fawcett, since Captain Marvel was licensed, at that point. For a while, I thought it predated the release of Shazam! #1, as a test run, since I didn't have date references, when I first saw the comic (in college, years later); but, no, it is about a year or more into DC publishing Captain Marvel.
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Post by zaku on Jul 5, 2021 17:52:32 GMT -5
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