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Post by Jesse on Nov 5, 2014 21:48:25 GMT -5
I just watched Rope by Hitchcock the other evening, though I don't know if that would be a noir example. Rope is one of my favorite Jimmy Stewart films and definitely an underrated Hitchcock movie. I'm still grasping for a concept of what noir is and is not. Watch the documentary on youtube that was posted earlier. If you still need help there is a comprehensive list of noir films on wiki. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 5, 2014 22:20:15 GMT -5
Cat People is noir??? I mean, the visual look I can see, but the supernatural aspect, and the total lack of a criminal element nor hard as nails male character? The more we discuss this, the more convinced I am that everyone has their own uniquely different understanding of noir. See, the thing about Cat People is that the supernatural element is never really established, as it, say, in The Uninvited (which I'm so glad is getting so much love hereabouts, b/c it's a nifty little movie), and we have an ambiguous set of occurrences at best. And I don't think the "hard-as-nails" guy is a requirement, either. In fact, a weak, easily manipulated guy is often the protagonist. And sometimes a good guy just gets in over his head. It's often a "dame" who's the tough one (see Stanwyck in Double Indemnity) Oh, another cool noir: Mildred Pierce, by one of the greatest directors ever, Michael Curtiz, the Jack Kirby of Hollywood.) And categorizing noir is not really as easy as saying it is or it isn't. Like so many other genres, they can be placed along a spectrum. Was Captain Marvel a superhero comic or a superhero spoof? Are the Barks Donald Ducks adventure stories or humor? Answer: Yes. And I was sounding dogmatic about b/w and color just for fun. Chinatown, for example, despite a few sunny LA scenes, is very noir, consciously so, of course. same with Body Heat, with its very spineless lead, ably played by William Hurt. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 5, 2014 22:25:22 GMT -5
North by Northwest: no Vertigo: No Rear Window: no I whole-heartedly agree with all these. I'm a little less certain about "The Wrong Man." It's so straightforward. The enemy isn't some mysterious unfathomable conspiracy, it's just some bureaucratic incompetence. It's very Kafkaesque. Strangers on a Train: Yes Shadow of a Doubt: Yes, though from the far end of the spectrum, with Detour at the other. I agree, Strangers on a Train is film noir, especially for Robert Walker. And Shadow of a Doubt is Hitchcock's most noirish film. (If it's in color, it really can't be a noir, unless it's Farewell, My Lovely, with Rob't. Mitchum.) I've never seen the Mitchum version, but I do love the novel "Farewell My Lovely" and the movie "Murder My Sweet" with Dick Powell as Marlowe. The only color film noir (as opposed to neo-noir) is Chinatown, IMHO. Hadn't seen tis post when I was just replying to Shax, but fully agree re Chinatown. "Murder, My Sweet" is also great. Powell was so good in that, such a switch from his usual persona. As for The Wrong Man, that Kafkaesque tone it has is very noir. Sometimes there's no conspiracy, no cover-up, no scheme. You're just caught in the random unfairness of life and can't get out. Oh, another fine noir: "Laura." |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 5, 2014 22:30:42 GMT -5
I just watched Rope by Hitchcock the other evening, though I don't know if that would be a noir example. Rope is one of my favorite Jimmy Stewart films and definitely an underrated Hitchcock movie. I'm still grasping for a concept of what noir is and is not. Watch the documentary on youtube that was posted earlier. If you still need help there is a comprehensive list of noir films on wiki. "Rope" gets a lot of attention for the one-take-per-reel stunt filming Hitchccock did (It was also done in 3-D.), bt you're right. There's more to it than that. Stewart's character is cut from the same seething-beneath-the-surface types as he was playing in those excellent Anthony Mann Westerns: angry, bitter, unsatisfied. And the homosexual subtext is so unmistakeable that it seems almost campy today, but at the time, it was risqué. Plus the Leopold-Loeb vibe and the Freudian overtones always make interesting viewing. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 5, 2014 22:32:40 GMT -5
A more recent film that I thought was a very good neo-noir: Winter's Bone.
Imagine Jennifer Lawrence as Philip Marlowe.
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Post by Jesse on Nov 5, 2014 22:38:37 GMT -5
TCM is showing Detour (1945), The Hitch-hiker (1953) and Gun Crazy (1949) this Friday.
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Post by coke & comics on Nov 6, 2014 0:30:45 GMT -5
I finally got one. I watched the '70s Invasion of the Body Snatchers! That's horror.
What? November?
November Noir?
Ah man, well at least it's alliterative.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 6, 2014 0:42:16 GMT -5
TCM is showing Detour (1945), The Hitch-hiker (1953) and Gun Crazy (1949) this Friday. These are all good! (But it's been a while since I saw Gun Crazy, I admit.)
But I must stress that YOU MUST SEE "DETOUR"! ALL OF YOU!
See "Detour"!
It's by the same director as the 1930s versions of "The Black Cat" and "The Raven."
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Post by MDG on Nov 6, 2014 10:16:39 GMT -5
"Rope" gets a lot of attention for the one-take-per-reel stunt filming Hitchccock did (It was also done in 3-D.), ... Rope was too early for 3D--you're thinking of Dial M for Murder. It was Hitchcock's first color movie. TCM is showing Detour (1945), The Hitch-hiker (1953) and Gun Crazy (1949) this Friday. These are all good! (But it's been a while since I saw Gun Crazy, I admit.)
But I must stress that YOU MUST SEE "DETOUR"! ALL OF YOU!
See "Detour"!
It's by the same director as the 1930s versions of "The Black Cat" and "The Raven."
The Black Cat, but not the Raven. Ulmer's an interesting director--he made a lot of very low-budget movies, though he probably could've moved up in the ranks. He could do a lot with a little, often using a lot of fog to cover minimal (or non-existent) sets in things like Man from Planet X. A lot of his stuff ended up in public domain, so pretty easy to find online (including Detour). |
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 6, 2014 11:07:38 GMT -5
D'oh! Thanks, MDG. Maybe I was thinking of Dial M.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 6, 2014 16:40:57 GMT -5
Watched Double Indemnity. Didn't love it. The dialogue was so badly stilted. I hope that's not a typical convention of Noir. Also, while I understand it's supposed to be a misanthropic view of humanity, I found absolutely nothing likable or worth investing in with the protagonist. His final self-sacrificing decision came out of nowhere and didn't feel at all consistent, nor did Keyes' affection for him. I need to find something likable about my characters. I hope this also isn't indicative of all noir. And where were those expressive camera shots?
Still, I'm probably just not getting it. After all, you have Billy Wilder directing, and Wilder and Raymond Frickin' Chandler writing the script, so it's got to just be me.
Up next is The Third Man, probably followed by Chinatown. I hope I like them better.
And, now that I'm getting a slightly better feel for it, is The Seventh Victim noir?
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 6, 2014 17:57:01 GMT -5
The Seventh Victim.
Yeah. I think it is.
I was pondering over whether or not Broadway Danny Rose is film noir or not. (No consensus.) And that reminded me of another Woody Allen movie.
Match Point.
It's a very good neo-noir.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 6, 2014 18:28:23 GMT -5
As others have said, it's more of a feeling than a hard and fast definition though for me noir films tend to be films with a pervasive dark mood with existential or expressionist themes, and highly stylized filming techniques. Other than that it's not as hard and fast as horror as a noir film can be a crime drama, a suspense film, a western or in some very rare cases even comedies(I'm talking about you "It's a Wonderful Life"!) That criteria works better for me. I'm going to stick with it. But I would also add that it probably has to be a relatively grounded film -- no supernatural, science fiction, etc. I wonder about whether spy stories should be counted, though. And, technically, by this definition, you could include Kurasawa's Seven Samurai, but that doesn't seem right. So modern day, mostly urban, ordinary people? I've seen the Seven Samurai listed as noir, but the consensus seems to be go with your gut. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 18:47:56 GMT -5
Watched a couple of sf-esque noirs not too long ago -- Kiss Me Deadly & City of Fear.
Not a (sub)genre I'm very knowledgeable about, though I do find it intriguing. Was interested to see that I have seen the 1940 film that Wikipedia article IDs (whether accurately or not, I of course have no idea) as the first generally agreed-upon example of it, Stranger on the Third Floor.
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Post by Rob Allen on Nov 6, 2014 19:19:33 GMT -5
My wife and I recently saw a restored 35mm print of a 1946 noir, The Chase, starring a young Bob Cummings. It's definitely noir, but it does have a happy ending for Bob.
It's based on another Cornell Woolrich novel. He must have been the go-to writer for noir film adaptations.
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