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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 8, 2014 9:50:20 GMT -5
While Fritz Lang went on to direct films noir, I don't consider "M" a noir film. It definitely inspired the genre, but it doesn't really fit the genre as a film. It doesn't have the "everyman" thrust into a bad situation. Nor the femme fatale. Nor a number of other hallmarks. It is a great film. And arguably both the first serial killer film and the first police procedural. I don't know, there are many who stick with those very nice roles like the everyman and the femme fatal to define noir but the general feeling and the technical aspects like heavy use of flashbacks and the use of camera angles to both express the emotions or mental states of the characters and the manipulation of the audience's emotions seem to be much more important signifiers for what is a noir film, and in that regard M has it in spades. As has been said though, there is no real consensus so neither of our opinions are really more right making the whole subject very nebulous. But for me, that's part of what I love about noir, I mean just look at the pages of conversation we've had on the topic so far in comparison to the pages generated by the horror theme from the previous month. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 8, 2014 11:38:31 GMT -5
I just finished Dead Reckoning...and it was decent. Not Boggie's best film by a long shot, but it had some interesting moments although Lizabeth Scott is no substitution for Bacall.
More than the plot, which is a rather paint by the numbers "who killed my old army buddy?" affair, what interested me was just how similar the plot of Frank Miller's "The Hard Goodbye" is to Dead Reckoning. I mean, I always knew Miller's Sin City was heavily influenced by noir films but Marve's journey mirrors the journey of Bogart's "Murdock" so closely that it's nearly an adaptation.
Also of interest was the fact that this was a Columbia picture which is a departure from Bogart's nearly exclusive relationship with the Warners.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 8, 2014 11:44:55 GMT -5
I just finished Dead Reckoning...and it was decent. Not Boggie's best film by a long shot, but it had some interesting moments although Lizabeth Scott is no substitution for Bacall. More than the plot, which is a rather paint by the numbers "who killed my old army buddy?" affair, what interested me was just how similar the plot of Frank Miller's "The Hard Goodbye" is to Dead Reckoning. I mean, I always knew Miller's Sin City was heavily influenced by noir films but Marve's journey mirrors the journey of Bogart's "Murdock" so closely that it's nearly an adaptation. Also of interest was the fact that this was a Columbia picture which is a departure from Bogart's nearly exclusive relationship with the Warners. Legend has it that Rita Hayworth was the choice for the female lead but she was busy making The Lady From Shanghai. She almost certainly would have been better...but the plot and script were pretty pedestrian. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 8, 2014 12:11:59 GMT -5
Hayworth definitely would have been nice, but you're correct in your estimation of the plot so it's not as if Hayworth would have made it that much better.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 8, 2014 12:16:18 GMT -5
I adore Lizabeth Scott. Bacall is great, but one of the great things about Bogart is the variety of leading ladies he worked with and the great chemistry that comes off with so many of them.
Of course, Dead Reckoning isn't near as good as Too Late for Tears (with Lizabeth Scott and Dan Duryea), but that doesn't mean Dead Reckoning isn't a fine film.
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Post by Jesse on Nov 8, 2014 12:28:15 GMT -5
Speaking of who are people's favorite femme fatales from film noir? I have to throw my hat in the ring for Peggy Cummins who gave an extraordinary performance in Gun Crazy.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 8, 2014 14:23:44 GMT -5
I profess here, before all present, my unending love for Lauren Bacall.
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Post by Jesse on Nov 8, 2014 14:53:57 GMT -5
Lauren Bacall was recently the TCM star of the month of September and they did a vignette narrated by Kelsey Grammer that was pretty interesting.
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Post by berkley on Nov 8, 2014 16:56:10 GMT -5
Would Gene Tierney in Laura count? She isn't predatory in the way some femme fatale are, but men do tend to become obsessively and dangerously attracted by her beauty.
Good question, I'd have to watch (and re-watch) a lot of films before saying much about it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 17:14:15 GMT -5
Laura I absolutely love. Began my decades-long appreciation for the great Clifton Webb.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 17:17:23 GMT -5
arguably both the first serial killer film Five years (IIRC) after Hitchcock's silent The Lodger (which I haven't seen, unlike M)? |
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Post by berkley on Nov 8, 2014 17:22:00 GMT -5
Of course the musical answer has to be Nico:
who should have appeared in more films herself. With the right director and script she would have been a perfect femme fatale in some 70s film noir that never was.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 8, 2014 17:29:58 GMT -5
I'll say this much: Laura knows the effect she has on men.
And you should definitely check out Gene Tierney in "Leave Her to Heaven." Chilling. Brightly lit and colored, but most definitely noirish in tone and theme. You won't soon forget her scenes in a boat.
For a sorta kinda noir, but with a woman in the role of the poor schnook, try "Dangerous Crossing" with jeanne Crain. Not a great movie, but an intriguing one.
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Post by berkley on Nov 8, 2014 17:46:41 GMT -5
I was just looking up the femme fatale entry on wiki to see if it would jog my memory of any other film noir examples. It did (Out of the Past, with Jane Greer and Robert Mitchum), but it also reminded me this is an archetype that stretches back about as far as in history as we can see. And in mentioning mythical/historical examples such as Helen of Troy and Cleopatra, it also reminded me that one thing a lot of the movie or tv versions of those figures fail to evoke is exactly that femme fatale aspect of their persona.
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Post by coke & comics on Nov 9, 2014 1:48:09 GMT -5
I am finally officially a participant: I this very day watched "Double Indemnity".
A fine film which definitely seems like noir:
Femme fatale. Check.
Murder. Check.
Reflecting narration. Check.
Sharply voiced dialogue. Check.
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