shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 10, 2021 21:45:46 GMT -5
I don't live in a California wildfire. It's not even remotely the same thing. Sure it is. You cite the security of physical over digital in being able to protect your possession of a copy as a reason physical copies are better. There are just as many threats to your physical issue as there are to your digital copy and they are no less likely to happen than the litany of threats people roll out about digital comics to rationalize their preference for physical copies. The frequency of threats to both is negligible, but the fear mongering about threats to digital comics continues apace, usually reliant on anecdotal evidence but referring to things that occur in quantities/frequencies that are statistically insignificant. It is a tired trope with little validity. Sure computers or hard drives get fried, or digital services go out of business, but so do gas main explosions, broken water pipes, wind storms, house fires, burglaries, and other events that result in loss of physical copies of comics. There are as many risks to one form as the other, but you want to highlight statistically insignificant anecdotal evidence on one side but dismiss it on the other. No matter what form your comics are in, shit can happen that leads to you not having them anymore. Choosing one form or the other does nothing to minimize the risk more than the other. Any security someone feels about one form over the other is an illusion stemming from personal bias not reality. And that is what it boils down to. Personal preference. Neither is objectively better than the other. -M The one massive difference is that you don't "own" the comics and, thus, the platform through which you read them has the right to purposefully remove or revise them at any time. While this hasn't been a significant issue with comics as of yet, it has certainly happened with digital books, as well as streaming television and movies. I know my floppy copies will still be there tomorrow unless an unlikely disaster occurs. No one can be totally sure that their digital comics will still be there tomorrow. Assets can be sold or suddenly come under legal dispute, books can be found objectionable in hindsight and subsequently removed, and services can just plain shut down without notice. A digital collection exists so long as the powers that be find it profitable to allow it to exist. Additionally, for many digital consumers, once you stop paying the monthly fee, the collection vanishes without a trace. I don't have to pay another dime for the rest of my life to enjoy the collection I have already amassed while they are going to have to hope that the service they use and its competitors don't jack up the fees as the years ensue to a level that they find unreasonable. Or maybe the company changes the way they format their digital files in a way that you don't like (image cropping, resolution/color/restoration issues/even just the way you scroll from page to page), start using obnoxiously intrusive advertising, or just plain upgrade to the point that your digital devices can't easily navigate their libraries anymore. Individually, the odds of any of these things happening may seem unlikely, but as a whole, that's a lot to consider. Am I saying reading physical books is better? No, digital still has advantages that make it the better choice for some. But if we are talking risk and longevity, one is vulnerable to physical threats while the other is vulnerable to the whim of for-profit companies, and I trust for-profit companies a lot less than I trust nature and burglars.
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Post by impulse on Oct 10, 2021 22:08:57 GMT -5
Not being cheeky, but I don't think arguing that decades-old periodicals published on cheap newsprint have a strong long-term outlook is particularly persuasive. I had a bunch of comics undergo significant yellowing 20 or so years ago before it was found the old bags and boards had a chemical that degraded books. The things used to protect them even were damaging them. I agree that with digital purchases that are linked to a persisting service, you are inherently buying convenience at the expense of a little bit of control. I think it is incredibly unlikely Amazon is going under any sooner than a pipe bursts over your comic collection. It's more possible they pull something, but even that seems it would be by far the exception rather than the rule. That's why I generally use digital "purchases" as basically an enhanced rental. Buy a movie on sale for $10 or less. If I watch it twice, great, I get my money's worth. Even if I don't, I like buying the option to watch it if I want. The stuff I really care about, like my LOTR Extended Editions? Those Blu-Rays are in a binder in storage and I watch my own digital copies for convenience. I agree that when thinking of digital media as the same exact product and use case as their legacy physical version, a lot of the times the value prop isn't there. The sweet spot for digital media is the convenience and access. There are FAR more comics that I would like to read than I would like to own. I listen to a lot of music I have zero interest in buying and storing on CD. There are plenty of movies not worth dropping $20+ for a disc I have to store but I'd drop $7.99 to add to my Amazon library and watch a couple times. Shoot, compared to Blockbuster late fees back in the day, I'm saving money half the time. The value proposition as a one-for-one replacement of physical buying is not as good IMO, but you can even buy non-DRMed versions of a lot of this stuff. Often PDF bundles go for big sale, etc. Some people even get around the DRM by buying the official copy through the formal channels and then downloading a copy through less authorized channels as the one they use just to both support the creators but avoid all that mess. As someone said up thread, that could be a copyright gray area, but it's hard to fault them morally speaking. This is longer than I meant. In short, I agree with MRP that physical collections are by no means near as secure as we like to think they are, and in the off chance something does go haywire, they are innately much harder to replace. I prefer a hybrid approach personally.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,707
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Post by shaxper on Oct 11, 2021 8:20:35 GMT -5
Not being cheeky, but I don't think arguing that decades-old periodicals published on cheap newsprint have a strong long-term outlook is particularly persuasive. I had a bunch of comics undergo significant yellowing 20 or so years ago before it was found the old bags and boards had a chemical that degraded books. The things used to protect them even were damaging them. At the same time, I have about fifty Golden Age books I've bought over the years that are now over seventy years old each, and none have deteriorated in any noticeable way in the two decades since I acquired them. They still look great for their age, one actually still looking mint fresh. Inevitably, paper will degrade over time, but whether it will be an elderly me or my great grandkids dealing with pulp in place of comic book pages, I know I have quite a few years left to enjoy even the most ancient books in my collection. I have significantly less confidence that your digital library will still be there in seventy years. It's possible, but it's far less certain. No, but I outlined quite a few other ways in which that loss of control can result in undesired consequences, and some of those are a lot more likely than a pipe bursting. Absolutely. If you don't mind digital, this makes a lot of sense. The problem for me is that, until I read a run, I never know whether it's going to end up being a favorite that I end up wanting to read twenty times or something I read once and then sell off after. For the casual reader, digital almost certainly makes more sense, but if you get attached to runs and enjoy re-reading them, counting on them being available for each re-read, then digital may not be ideal. I recently started buying all my favorite films that I regularly stream on youtube because a few have dropped off the internet over the years. I want to know they will be there when I want them. No argument here. My point was only that digital is less predictable/reliable in the long term.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 11, 2021 8:22:37 GMT -5
I agree that when thinking of digital media as the same exact product and use case as their legacy physical version, a lot of the times the value prop isn't there. The sweet spot for digital media is the convenience and access. There are FAR more comics that I would like to read than I would like to own. I listen to a lot of music I have zero interest in buying and storing on CD. There are plenty of movies not worth dropping $20+ for a disc I have to store but I'd drop $7.99 to add to my Amazon library and watch a couple times. Shoot, compared to Blockbuster late fees back in the day, I'm saving money half the time. When it comes to consuming various media, I only buy comics in its physical form. I listen to Spotify and stream the music I enjoy for free , and I watch movies digitally as well. Comics are different in that I enjoy finding , touching and collecting them. The tactile element is important to me. I read them digitally as well and it's great to read them and not worrying about the storage, especially series that I just want to read and not keep.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 11, 2021 8:25:24 GMT -5
shaxper, you brought up an interesting point. I don't think I ever read something digitally and then went out and bought it.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 11, 2021 9:50:24 GMT -5
(...) I don't think I ever read something digitally and then went out and bought it. I have. More than a few times.
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Post by brutalis on Oct 11, 2021 10:12:57 GMT -5
shaxper, you brought up an interesting point. I don't think I ever read something digitally and then went out and bought it. Actually, I am reading modern digitally and then will choose if I want to purchase in print. It certainly is a much more cost effective way than the old days of buying and reading to find i am disappointed and wishing that I hadn't bought it. What is true is that I will buy digital of stuff i have already read. This will help greatly in downsizing my physical collection as retirement looks nearer. So much easier to have over 1000 comics to read all in the size of one CD carrying case than taking up half a room. On the list to conserve space to digital are all those comics which are NOT regular reads. I include such stuff as West Coast Avengers, Iron Man, Captain America, Daredevil, Hulk, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Outsiders and the DC/Marvel horror books. The kinds of series which all had long runs with lots of mediocre amidst the WANT TO HAVE better runs.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,707
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Post by shaxper on Oct 11, 2021 10:19:44 GMT -5
shaxper, you brought up an interesting point. I don't think I ever read something digitally and then went out and bought it. I actually think this is a great litmus test for deciding whether or not to collect an entire run. For example, when I recently got interested in Immortal Hulk, I used a friend's digital subscription to read through the first forty issues issues in order to determine if this was something I really wanted to spend multiple hundreds of dollars to be able to read repeatedly. I ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. Thus, while I don't enjoy reading digitally, I absolutely see how the low cost to sample a large body of works is a definite benefit.
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Post by badwolf on Oct 11, 2021 10:22:24 GMT -5
A meteor could strike my house...... but it isn't likely to happen.
On the other hand, I have had digital files simply disappear without any rational explanation. One day I'll notice that a song on an album I purchased in full is missing. Maybe an entire album. I'm not saying it happens often, but it happens. Hopefully I can re-download it (Amazon didn't always let you do this, and others sites generally limit a certain number of times) if they still have it. It may not even be available to purchase any more.
My point being that a physical item is never going to simply vanish into this air, lacking any kind of discernible event.
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Post by Batflunkie on Oct 11, 2021 10:31:32 GMT -5
shaxper , you brought up an interesting point. I don't think I ever read something digitally and then went out and bought it. I did with an issue of IDW's interpretation of Dredd before it devolved into a retelling of the Robot Wars epic. I also almost bought Mars Attack Popeye just because of how stupidly fun it was, emphasis on "almost"
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Post by MDG on Oct 11, 2021 10:51:19 GMT -5
shaxper , you brought up an interesting point. I don't think I ever read something digitally and then went out and bought it. I did with an issue of IDW's interpretation of Dredd before it devolved into a retelling of the Robot Wars epic. I also almost bought Mars Attack Popeye just because of how stupidly fun it was, emphasis on "almost" I haven't yet, but I'd probably pick up Invisible Ink and Nobody's Fool, both by Bill Griffith, if I saw them in a store or at a show.
Bu, as I said before, the beauty of digital is the same as a library: you can read things without having to own them. Especially something like the recent Alex Ross Marvel series, which I was really only interested in for the Ryan Heshka and Mitch O'Connell stories. And I liked being able to read Chelsea Cain's Mockingbird and Matt Fraction's Jimmy Olsen after hearing them on podcasts, but i don't need them in my permanent library.
It's not just "What do I want to read?" but "What will I want to read again?"
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 11, 2021 12:02:25 GMT -5
A meteor could strike my house...... but it isn't likely to happen. On the other hand, I have had digital files simply disappear without any rational explanation. One day I'll notice that a song on an album I purchased in full is missing. Maybe an entire album. I'm not saying it happens often, but it happens. Hopefully I can re-download it (Amazon didn't always let you do this, and others sites generally limit a certain number of times) if they still have it. It may not even be available to purchase any more. My point being that a physical item is never going to simply vanish into this air, lacking any kind of discernible event. I have cd's of my favorite music that I place on my device. I also have the CD roms of the entire first volumes of the Avengers and FF that I use to install on my tablet.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 11, 2021 12:44:19 GMT -5
I did with an issue of IDW's interpretation of Dredd before it devolved into a retelling of the Robot Wars epic. I also almost bought Mars Attack Popeye just because of how stupidly fun it was, emphasis on "almost" I haven't yet, but I'd probably pick up Invisible Ink and Nobody's Fool, both by Bill Griffith, if I saw them in a store or at a show.
Bu, as I said before, the beauty of digital is the same as a library: you can read things without having to own them. Especially something like the recent Alex Ross Marvel series, which I was really only interested in for the Ryan Heshka and Mitch O'Connell stories. And I liked being able to read Chelsea Cain's Mockingbird and Matt Fraction's Jimmy Olsen after hearing them on podcasts, but i don't need them in my permanent library.
It's not just "What do I want to read?" but "What will I want to read again?"
That Jimmy Olsen book is pure fun. And I say that as someone who hates Superman and the majority of his mythos.
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Post by impulse on Oct 11, 2021 14:38:20 GMT -5
You have to take care to properly store your digital media just like you do your physical media. Most of us probably bag, board, and properly box our comics, right? You really need to do similar care with your digital purchases. If you just throw money at iTunes and let it do its thing, you might not find everything. If you backup your MP3s to a second location or two, you have protected them. Redownloading from iTunes or Amazon or whoever is a convenient back up option for most cases, but you shouldn't 100% rely on it.
In general it is incredibly rare for a file to just disappear off your hard drive. Something had to happen whether or not you are aware of it, short of the hardware failing. You could liken it to a meteor crashing on your house. A hard drive crapping out over time could be comparable to having to replace your bags and boards when they are found toxic or a flood or something. But if you have them backed up on a portable hard drive or the cloud, you have an easy way to recover them.
Personally, while I enjoy the physical feel and smell of reading a paper comic, moving and storing those damned long boxes over multiples homes and states has pretty much cured me of any desire to physically store the vast majority of my comics. I probably kept around 50-100 or so TPBs and like a dozen floppies, including my framed and signed special issues. It's just not worth the space and hassle of physical storage for general reading to me anymore. Even more so, the number of times I reread the vast, vast majority of my comics ranged from seldom to never. 90%+ were just taking up room in the closet. The ones I do reread are the ones I bought on TPB.
In the incredibly unlikely event all ways to access digital comics are simultaneously and permanently offline, I will at least have my favorite TPBs, but if we get to that level of systemic collapse, I suspect I will have more important things to worry about than funny books.
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Post by badwolf on Oct 11, 2021 15:14:06 GMT -5
A meteor could strike my house...... but it isn't likely to happen. On the other hand, I have had digital files simply disappear without any rational explanation. One day I'll notice that a song on an album I purchased in full is missing. Maybe an entire album. I'm not saying it happens often, but it happens. Hopefully I can re-download it (Amazon didn't always let you do this, and others sites generally limit a certain number of times) if they still have it. It may not even be available to purchase any more. My point being that a physical item is never going to simply vanish into this air, lacking any kind of discernible event. I have cd's of my favorite music that I place on my device. I also have the CD roms of the entire first volumes of the Avengers and FF that I use to install on my tablet. What file format do they come in? Will you always have a device that can read it?
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