Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 23, 2020 8:08:54 GMT -5
The one that jumps immediately to my mind was the "One More Day" storyline that ran across the Spider-Man titles in 2007. In particular, the final part of that storyline in Amazing Spider-Man #545, which serves up a terrible conclusion to a godawful storyline and does irreversible damage to a beloved fictional character. I absolutely hated "One More Day". I actually threw my copy of Amazing Spider-Man #545 across the room in disgust upon finishing it for the first time. I've never, ever had such a physical or violent reaction to the contents of a comic book before or since. The deal that Peter Parker and Mary Jane made with Mephisto erased their marriage from continuity, ushered in wholesale character regression for Spider-Man and much of his supporting cast (especially for Black Cat, Mary Jane, Aunt May and villains like Sandman), and resurrected Harry Osborn for no adequately explained reason. In addition, there were also knock on effects throughout Spider-Man's past continuity, like the storyline in the '90s Clone Saga, in which Mary Jane was pregnant and lost her baby, never having happened. But perhaps the single worst thing that OMD did was to kill any sense of onward character momentum in the series dead. It rendered Spider-Man as nothing more than formula fiction and killed any interest I had in the ongoing life of Peter Parker. Although I hung on a fair few years afterwards, hoping things would improve -- and there were a few decent stories during that time, to be fair -- the Peter Parker that I loved...the character that I gave a crap about...died with OMD. To this day, Amazing Spider-Man #545 is the latest issue of ASM that I own and that's unlikely to ever change. This issue marks the moment when I lost interest in Spider-Man's ongoing adventures for good.
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Post by impulse on Jul 23, 2020 10:40:12 GMT -5
Confessor, that is a great choice. I didn't even regularly follow or collect Spider-Man, but I kept up with goings-on, and that was horrendous. That sadly seemed to be part of a trend of Marvel under Quesada. Go back in time and freeze things to a certain point that he was nostalgic before. In fact, I think your below snippet sums it up well. But perhaps the single worst thing that OMD did was to kill any sense of onward character momentum in the series dead. It rendered Spider-Man as nothing more than formula fiction and killed any interest I had in the ongoing life of Peter Parker. Although I hung on a fair few years afterwards, hoping things would improve -- and there were a few decent stories during that time, to be fair -- the Peter Parker that I loved...the character that I gave a crap about...died with OMD. This is how I felt about the X-MEN books after No More Mutants. Forcibly tried to take things backward, but with the added benefit of the new stories and status quo they setup also being horrid in and of themselves. There was the occasional bright spot. Most of Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men, the first part of Carey's run on adjectiveless X-MEN, and the odd mini or solo, but by and large, it was just awful.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 23, 2020 13:55:12 GMT -5
The resurrection of Jean Grey put me off Marvel for more than a decade. It didn't just ruin a run, it ruined the entire Marvel Universe for me. Cei-U! I summon the turning point! If you want someone to blame it was Kurt Busiek (idea), John Byrne (execution in part), "corrections" by Jackson Guice at the direction of Jim Shooter. Personally I was happy with it and had much more of an issue with the various milkings of Phoenix before that with the costume being worn by someone else, one too many flashbacks, future offspring of the Summers' from the future continually coming out of the woodwork after Rachel (Cable, and Nate Grey the X-Man), the more than one cutsey "fairytale" retellings, What If and Teen Titans crossover appearances, and one too many parodies of the character in other comics. Having just Jean Grey, a vintage 1963 Marvel character, salvaged from all that mess seemed like a good idea, but though I bought the Avengers-FF reintro and then the first three X-Factors I was pretty much on my way out the door buying any Marvel or DC heroes comics. Of course they managed to mess it all up again, having Jean start wearing the costume and using the Phoenix name again for no good reason and then being possessed by the actual Phoenix? I didn't actually read that last part, and never will, so I might have it wrong. No good deed (retrieving Jean Grey from the post #137 garbage pile) goes unpunished I guess. I did like the original #137 (and #138) ending and would've been fine had that stayed... but Chris Claremont and some others would not let the Phoenix costume and name go and none of those stories were anything but diminishing or leeching off the high point of #137. Jean Grey going all kinky and dark after a few months of that weasel Mastermind disguised as supposed kinky hearthrob Peter, er I mean, Jason Wyngarde (ha, must not've seen the Jason King tv series or known much about the actor) I could never buy... a copy of Jean that didn't entirely know she was a copy, who knows, but it was still Jean's goodness that affected the outcome. I'm probably most mad that after all his messing with such a powerful force Mastermind not only didn't stay a drooling vegetable but came right back and replayed the whole plot as Wyngarde with said to be exact (fooled Cyclops) Jean Grey copy Madelyn Pryor (who sires Nate Grey the X-Man in 'a future') and really Claremont should've moved on if he had mostly only re-runs in him. I'm indulging here in something I've written about too many times so forgive me if it is a bit tiresome. Your mileage may vary and Jean Grey's returned did cheapen #137 for you. I saw so many female characters killed off after Phoenix, or changed extremely, over just a few years, that seeing one (who as Marvel Girl had had a long career) returned was scarce good news to me! I don't know what they did with Elektra... did that not cheapen Daredevil #181 at all?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 14:31:22 GMT -5
The resurrection of Jean Grey put me off Marvel for more than a decade. It didn't just ruin a run, it ruined the entire Marvel Universe for me. Cei-U! I summon the turning point! If you want someone to blame it was Kurt Busiek (idea), John Byrne (execution in part), "corrections" by Jackson Guice at the direction of Jim Shooter. Personally I was happy with it and had much more of an issue with the various milkings of Phoenix before that with the costume being worn by someone else, one too many flashbacks, future offspring of the Summers' from the future continually coming out of the woodwork after Rachel (Cable, and Nate Grey the X-Man), the more than one cutsey "fairytale" retellings, What If and Teen Titans crossover appearances, and one too many parodies of the character in other comics. Having just Jean Grey, a vintage 1963 Marvel character, salvaged from all that mess seemed like a good idea, but though I bought the Avengers-FF reintro and then the first three X-Factors I was pretty much on my way out the door buying any Marvel or DC heroes comics. Of course they managed to mess it all up again, having Jean start wearing the costume and using the Phoenix name again for no good reason and then being possessed by the actual Phoenix? I didn't actually read that last part, and never will, so I might have it wrong. No good deed (retrieving Jean Grey from the post #137 garbage pile) goes unpunished I guess. I did like the original #137 (and #138) ending and would've been fine had that stayed... but Chris Claremont and some others would not let the Phoenix costume and name go and none of those stories were anything but diminishing or leeching off the high point of #137. Jean Grey going all kinky and dark after a few months of that weasel Mastermind disguised as supposed kinky hearthrob Peter, er I mean, Jason Wyngarde (ha, must not've seen the Jason King tv series or known much about the actor) I could never buy... a copy of Jean that didn't entirely know she was a copy, who knows, but it was still Jean's goodness that affected the outcome. I'm probably most mad that after all his messing with such a powerful force Mastermind not only didn't stay a drooling vegetable but came right back and replayed the whole plot as Wyngarde with said to be exact (fooled Cyclops) Jean Grey copy Madelyn Pryor (who sires Nate Grey the X-Man in 'a future') and really Claremont should've moved on if he had mostly only re-runs in him. I'm indulging here in something I've written about too many times so forgive me if it is a bit tiresome. Your mileage may vary and Jean Grey's returned did cheapen #137 for you. I saw so many female characters killed off after Phoenix, or changed extremely, over just a few years, that seeing one (who as Marvel Girl had had a long career) returned was scarce good news to me! I don't know what they did with Elektra... did that not cheapen Daredevil #181 at all? iirc Busiek has said repeatedly, the idea to do it wasn't his, he was asked in passing if you were going to bring back Jean, how would you do it, and it was a purely hypothetical conversation that others took and ran with. -M
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Post by Phil Maurice on Jul 23, 2020 14:43:15 GMT -5
I don't know what they did with Elektra... did that not cheapen Daredevil #181 at all? I think it did. Frank Miller thought it did at some point. But I don't think I've read any non-Miller Elektra, so my opinion may just be fanboy whining.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 23, 2020 21:26:02 GMT -5
The other thing I remember from reading X-Men back at the time was I knew the story of a phoenix rising from it's ashes (we had even been watching the BBC's Phoenix And The Carpet kids series in school), so while having her commit suicide for wiping out the sun of an inhabited planet and zapping a Shi'ar patrol ship was satisfying as a story conclusion, there was a nagging at the back of the mind that she/it could be back someday in another form. I would've had it come back combined with some other character and have how they handle the power-hunger deal be different (certainly not a ringer for Jean Grey with a virtual re-run of an earlier story, Mastermind and all). Maybe I would have had it come back through Professor X himself as he had some contact on a psionic level, but no thigh-high boots and arm length gloves I don't think (or spiked leather collars).
Some of those overtly jokey Assistant Editor Month issues of every Marvel title didn't go down as well as others... they might have 'ruined' a run for some people. Personally I mainly just hated the use of the DC go-go checks on them.
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Post by sabongero on Jul 24, 2020 21:06:50 GMT -5
The one that jumps immediately to my mind was the "One More Day" storyline that ran across the Spider-Man titles in 2007. In particular, the final part of that storyline in Amazing Spider-Man #545, which serves up a terrible conclusion to a godawful storyline and does irreversible damage to a beloved fictional character. I absolutely hated "One More Day". I actually threw my copy of Amazing Spider-Man #545 across the room in disgust upon finishing it for the first time. I've never, ever had such a physical or violent reaction to the contents of a comic book before or since. The deal that Peter Parker and Mary Jane made with Mephisto erased their marriage from continuity, ushered in wholesale character regression for Spider-Man and much of his supporting cast (especially for Black Cat, Mary Jane, Aunt May and villains like Sandman), and resurrected Harry Osborn for no adequately explained reason. In addition, there were also knock on effects throughout Spider-Man's past continuity, like the storyline in the '90s Clone Saga, in which Mary Jane was pregnant and lost her baby, never having happened. But perhaps the single worst thing that OMD did was to kill any sense of onward character momentum in the series dead. It rendered Spider-Man as nothing more than formula fiction and killed any interest I had in the ongoing life of Peter Parker. Although I hung on a fair few years afterwards, hoping things would improve -- and there were a few decent stories during that time, to be fair -- the Peter Parker that I loved...the character that I gave a crap about...died with OMD. To this day, Amazing Spider-Man #545 is the latest issue of ASM that I own and that's unlikely to ever change. This issue marks the moment when I lost interest in Spider-Man's ongoing adventures for good. I remember the venom and wrath of Spider-Man and Mary Jane fans throughout when that "hands tied behind him"-JMS written with editorial mandate and illustrated by Joe Quesada arc came out. It really hit the nerves of many Spider-Man fans. And then this brought to mind. The editorial sabotage that was the character assassination of Gwen Stacy in the 6-Part "Sins Past" storyline.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2020 22:01:10 GMT -5
I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED mid-80's- early 90's "Captain America" Scourge! the Serpent Society Diamondback ... and then THIS happened: (and it ran for SIX issues!)
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 25, 2020 6:35:36 GMT -5
And then this brought to mind. The editorial sabotage that was the character assassination of Gwen Stacy in the 6-Part "Sins Past" storyline. Actually, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I loved "Sins Past". To this day, given how well it was written by JMS and drawn by Mike Deodato, I find it hard to understand why so many fans hated it. And I'm a huge Gwen Stacy fan too! But I found it anything but insulting to her memory. Quite the opposite; I thought Sins Past humanised her and made her seem much more like a three-dimensional girl in her late teens. She made a terrible error of judgement at a time when she was emotionally vulnerable, just like lots of people do in their lives. That's life. To me, Gwen's actions (and Norman Osborn's too) were very believable within the context of the story.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 25, 2020 12:19:31 GMT -5
and then THIS happened: That's almost an answer to how DC characters would turn into gorillas! From a distance not following the comics then it strikes me as humorous and might've even gotten me to buy... they could have made it an event where everyone turns into wolves... Spider-Wolf, X-Wolves, Doctor Strangewolf... bring back Man-Wolf just so he can become Wolf-Wolf (cameo by Eddie Munster?). If it was fortnightly at the time at least it was over in three months instead of six.
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Post by sabongero on Jul 25, 2020 14:03:32 GMT -5
And then this brought to mind. The editorial sabotage that was the character assassination of Gwen Stacy in the 6-Part "Sins Past" storyline. Actually, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I loved "Sins Past". To this day, given how well it was written by JMS and drawn by Mike Deodato, I find it hard to understand why so many fans hated it. And I'm a huge Gwen Stacy fan too! But I found it anything but insulting to her memory. Quite the opposite; I thought Sins Past humanised her and made her seem much more like a three-dimensional girl in her late teens. She made a terrible error of judgement at a time when she was emotionally vulnerable, just like lots of people do in their lives. That's life. To me, Gwen's actions (and Norman Osborn's too) were very believable within the context of the story. I was shocked by it. Perhaps because I read Gwen Stacy in the 1980's on the Marvel Tales reprints of early Spider-Man stories. And she was the girlfriend of Spider-Man readers who were heartbroken by her demise in the ASM 121-122 storyline. And for her to be placed in that story Sins Past, which perhaps was a well-written, and brilliantly illustrated by Deodato, was hurtful to ASM fans who had a special place in their heart for Gwen who will always be Peter's girl.
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Confessor
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Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jul 25, 2020 19:47:29 GMT -5
Actually, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I loved "Sins Past". To this day, given how well it was written by JMS and drawn by Mike Deodato, I find it hard to understand why so many fans hated it. And I'm a huge Gwen Stacy fan too! But I found it anything but insulting to her memory. Quite the opposite; I thought Sins Past humanised her and made her seem much more like a three-dimensional girl in her late teens. She made a terrible error of judgement at a time when she was emotionally vulnerable, just like lots of people do in their lives. That's life. To me, Gwen's actions (and Norman Osborn's too) were very believable within the context of the story. I was shocked by it. Perhaps because I read Gwen Stacy in the 1980's on the Marvel Tales reprints of early Spider-Man stories. And she was the girlfriend of Spider-Man readers who were heartbroken by her demise in the ASM 121-122 storyline. And for her to be placed in that story Sins Past, which perhaps was a well-written, and brilliantly illustrated by Deodato, was hurtful to ASM fans who had a special place in their heart for Gwen who will always be Peter's girl. Yeah, I get that. Absolutely. I liked Gwen a lot too and, like you, I grew up in the late 70s and 80s reading those old Amazing Spider-Man reprints in Marvel Tales. Gwen was special, and her untimely and tragic death certainly elevated her and, dare I say it, canonised her in the eyes of most Spider-Man fans (myself included). But the key thing for me was that, although it was certainly a shocking revelation, "Sins Past" delivered it in a very believable -- not to mention edge-of-your-seat exciting -- way. To me, a young, emotionally vulnerable woman making a terrible error of judgement and getting involved with an older man -- which, let's face it, isn't exactly an unheard of turn of events in real life -- doesn't sully her reputation or knock her off of a pedestal. It just makes her more human, flaws and all. But I also know that this isn't exactly a widely shared opinion.
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Post by spoon on Jul 25, 2020 22:25:57 GMT -5
I often lose interest in a series when a key member of the creative team leaves. The art team of Rick Leonardi and Al Williamson left Spider-Man 2099 with #25, and it turned to crap. I think I only bought 2 or 3 issues after they left. Wonder Man also lost its penciler (Jeff Johnson) with #25, and I lost interest. And it was canceled a few issues later.
For me, the Avengers run killer is the Korvac Saga. I started reading the series from the beginning via the Essential black-and-white TPBs. I finished reading volume 7 before volume 8 was released, so I decided to pick the back issues of the Korvac Saga that follow where volume 7 left off. I had heard of the storyline, and it sounded interesting. It turned out to be awful when I read it. In my opinion, it was easily the worst run of the series to that point. I've read a bunch of issues past that point, by I didn't resume the systematic issue-by-issue read-through from the point I left off.
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Post by berkley on Jul 25, 2020 22:58:26 GMT -5
I often lose interest in a series when a key member of the creative team leaves. The art team of Rick Leonardi and Al Williamson left Spider-Man 2099 with #25, and it turned to crap. I think I only bought 2 or 3 issues after they left. Wonder Man also lost its penciler (Jeff Johnson) with #25, and I lost interest. And it was canceled a few issues later. For me, the Avengers run killer is the Korvac Saga. I started reading the series from the beginning via the Essential black-and-white TPBs. I finished reading volume 7 before volume 8 was released, so I decided to pick the back issues of the Korvac Saga that follow where volume 7 left off. I had heard of the storyline, and it sounded interesting. It turned out to be awful when I read it. In my opinion, it was easily the worst run of the series to that point. I've read a bunch of issues past that point, by I didn't resume the systematic issue-by-issue read-through from the point I left off. As a teenaged reader at the time I thought it was OK at first but as soon as George Perez wasn't doing the artwork it lost almost all its attraction for me, and I realised that the only thing I really liked about the entirety of Shooter's Avengers, not just the Korvac story, was the Perez artwork (Byrne also did a fine job in the otherwise horrendous Nefaria story). IMO Shooter was in every way a DC-style writer (and editor!) and would have been better suited to their characters and general way of operating.
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Post by String on Jul 26, 2020 14:12:00 GMT -5
I was shocked by it. Perhaps because I read Gwen Stacy in the 1980's on the Marvel Tales reprints of early Spider-Man stories. And she was the girlfriend of Spider-Man readers who were heartbroken by her demise in the ASM 121-122 storyline. And for her to be placed in that story Sins Past, which perhaps was a well-written, and brilliantly illustrated by Deodato, was hurtful to ASM fans who had a special place in their heart for Gwen who will always be Peter's girl. Yeah, I get that. Absolutely. I liked Gwen a lot too and, like you, I grew up in the late 70s and 80s reading those old Amazing Spider-Man reprints in Marvel Tales. Gwen was special, and her untimely and tragic death certainly elevated her and, dare I say it, canonised her in the eyes of most Spider-Man fans (myself included). But the key thing for me was that, although it was certainly a shocking revelation, "Sins Past" delivered it in a very believable -- not to mention edge-of-your-seat exciting -- way. To me, a young, emotionally vulnerable woman making a terrible error of judgement and getting involved with an older man -- which, let's face it, isn't exactly an unheard of turn of events in real life -- doesn't sully her reputation or knock her off of a pedestal. It just makes her more human, flaws and all. But I also know that this isn't exactly a widely shared opinion. Around that time, the wife wanted to read ASM so I added it to my then pull list and soon after, Sins Past started. She didn't have the background and long history with Gwen as myself other than knowing that she was Peter's first love who died. So, the story didn't have that much traumatizing effect upon her as it apparently did upon other long-time readers. (In fact, she liked the story for the reasons you've given, writing and art). Now, after she'd read it, I read the issue and my response was more along the lines of what are you doing?? I wasn't really outraged over these new revelations, it was more like why are you doing this now after so much time passing? This was back in what, '04, '05? I have all the respect and appreciation for JMS' writing in any medium but this struck me more as a stunt, a sales bump. I could be wrong, maybe JMS was building up to it in some regard. However I can't re-read this arc at the moment: I sold the lot of Sin Past issues on eBay awhile back. So for me at least, it was a sales bump.
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