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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 10:08:58 GMT -5
In this topic, on his own forum, John Byrne said this about the Atom back in 2009: Personally, I believe storyline possibilities for characters who shrink are virtually unlimited. From being trapped in a washing machine and fighting the pet cat to the garden becoming a "jungle" and the bath becoming an "ocean", I think there's a lot you can do with characters that shrink. But whenever I start a thread, I am interested as much in opposing views as those that are akin to mine. Boring "echo chambers" are for social media; forums are about exchanging ideas. So, whether you agree with JB's quote or disagree, it'd be good to read all views on this. And while we're at it, here's another question: Atom or Ant-Man? Do you have a preference? Incidentally, and I know no-one here thinks this, I worry that digging up old quotes can be seen as negative. No, JB's insights, on various topics, are worth exploring, and I am sure there'll be views from both sides in this topic. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 2, 2020 11:51:35 GMT -5
Well, no shrinking character has been able to sustain its own series for an extended period of time. Ant-Man was changed to Giant-Man rather quickly and the Atom got teaed up with Hawkman, after a sell. Atom got several shots at it; but, must lasted a few years. The problem is that it's a gimmick premise. It takes a pretty creative mind to see all the potential in the premise. It also takes a really inventive artist. Working against that, though, are the deadline pressures of doing monthly comics. That kind of regularity usually leads to a plot formula, which is a death sentence, when the formula runs out of steam.
The Flash is also a gimmick character; but, speed seems to inspire more than a worm's eye view of the world.
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Post by hondobrode on Feb 2, 2020 12:35:28 GMT -5
Ant-Man being able to get small, but not molecular, at least pre-MCU, has limited that character.
The problem with the Atom is, getting small can be infinite. He's potentially one of the most powerful characters in comics being able to get to molecular level, and travel to sub-atomic universes.
Think of all that he can explore and see that the rest of us can't.
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Post by beccabear67 on Feb 2, 2020 14:02:34 GMT -5
I remember The Atom getting a bird side-kick before Hawkman. I'm pretty sure he rode on it. And then there were the Time Pool adventures. I always liked all the variations Gil Kane of someone came up with for the covers of The Atom. Before that there was a character at Quality in the '40s named Doll Man and they did the same routine of showing him next to a gigantic coin, scaling a telephone like it was the Old Man of Hoy rock, appearing to get stepped on or run over or licked by a giant dog. I think kids who liked doll houses and miniatures/models would respond to such a character, but for older readers you'd have to work in sub-atomic worlds... or even time travel which wasn't inherent to The Atom at all that I could see.
Gerry Anderson did a pilot for a series that never sold titled The Investigators where two teens had the power to shrink and rive tiny cars and boats. It was after The Secret Service and Joe 90, and there was a shrinking character in one of those who rode around in a suitcase!
A lot of non-shrinking characters have had a one time story where they shrank (didn't the Hulk meet Jarella in one?), and then there was the Micronauts from a sub-atomic world having adventures either there full sized or in our world where they were Land Of the Giants small. They did one doll house issue as well as have them chased by lawnmowers and pigs, or team-up with Ant-Man in the supermarket aisle!
Speaking of Mr. Byrne, I thought the use of The Atom in the issues of JLA circa tha late #90s that re-introduced The Doom Patrol was one of the best I ever read! It went from sub-atomic realities to beyond that and was really trippy! The vampires coming to our world was explained in there someplace as well (I just was very sick of vampires, especially the Claremont sort).
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 2, 2020 14:58:40 GMT -5
Ant-Man being able to get small, but not molecular, at least pre-MCU, has limited that character. On the DC side, long before the MCU, the Atom had explored the molecular realm, only it was in Warner Bros' excellent Justice League / Justice League Unlimited cartoons from he early 2000s. He was a very effective character in that so-named "Timmverse." Where comics are concerned, the Atom's logical next step as a character was in 1983's 4-part miniseries, Sword of the Atom, written by Jan Strnad and illustrated by--who else? Gil Kane.  In a period where DC was on a revolutionary run in the medium, this Atom miniseries was right up there with the best DC was publishing at the time featuring an unexpected, heartbreaking turn for Palmer, more details about his past (and it was not good), etc. Kane's fine hand/mind for traditional fantasy (as seen in his Blackmark work for one example) was set loose in this and the 3-part follow-up specials from 1984:  But what's important is that the Atom was given a story that made him so much more interesting and human (instead of just being a superhero) than most of his 1960s appearances. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 15:29:33 GMT -5
I've never read that mini-series. I need to!
Atom and Ant-Man should team up in a tale called "It's A Small World".
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Post by Calidore on Feb 2, 2020 19:49:40 GMT -5
I'll second the Sword of the Atom mini and specials--very good stuff at the beginning, and still enjoyable by the end.
IMO, comics, like any other art form, are only limited by the imagination of the creators. If they're claiming there's nothing else that can be done with such-and-such character/setting/plot, they're only announcing that their well has run dry and it's time to bring in new blood.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 2, 2020 20:16:26 GMT -5
Well, no shrinking character has been able to sustain its own series for an extended period of time. Quality's Doll Man ran without interruption from 1939 to 1953. Fifteen years sounds like an extended period of time to me.
But to get back to taxi's original post, Schwartz's problems with the character weren't iherent in the premise, only with the execution. He and Gardner Fox insisted on building their plots around size-changing gimmicks (just as Flash was plotted around speed gimmicks) instead of being driven by character. Ray Palmer was a cipher in the Silver Age without a single distinguishing characteristic. The best they could do in the Bronze Age was give him an inferiority complex when with the JLA. It wasn't until Jan Strnad and Gil Kane concocted the Sword of the Atom mini that we finally saw the pre-Crisis Mighty Mite fleshed out... and it was apparently too little, too late.
So, no, it's not the character that's limited, but the imaginations of those creating his adventures.
Cei-U! I summon the white drawf star!
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 2, 2020 22:12:32 GMT -5
Well, no shrinking character has been able to sustain its own series for an extended period of time. Quality's Doll Man ran without interruption from 1939 to 1953. Fifteen years sounds like an extended period of time to me.
But to get back to taxi's original post, Schwartz's problems with the character weren't iherent in the premise, only with the execution. He and Gardner Fox insisted on building their plots around size-changing gimmicks (just as Flash was plotted around speed gimmicks) instead of being driven by character. Ray Palmer was a cipher in the Silver Age without a single distinguishing characteristic. The best they could do in the Bronze Age was give him an inferiority complex when with the JLA. It wasn't until Jan Strnad and Gil Kane concocted the Sword of the Atom mini that we finally saw the pre-Crisis Mighty Mite fleshed out... and it was apparently too little, too late.
So, no, it's not the character that's limited, but the imaginations of those creating his adventures.
Cei-U! I summon the white drawf star!
Well, I meant headlining, but I was thinking Doll Man had only appeared in Feature Comics and had forgot he had a solo series. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 2, 2020 22:37:37 GMT -5
In this topic, on his own forum, John Byrne said this about the Atom back in 2009: I suspect that Schwartz could have said identical things about a number of the titles under his editorship. I like the Bronze Age Superman, but six issues sounds like about the sort of sample you'd require to get a feel for what the character was like from 1971-1986. It also took Schwartz about one issue of BATMAN and DETECTIVE respectively to realize that they'd done everything they could with Alfred and promptly killed him off. Doesn't mean he was right. In fact, I'd say it isn't until about three or four years into his tenure that the BATMAN titles finally decided what they wanted to be after flailing around for far more than the six issue time limit he gave to The Atom before giving up there. I've read perhaps a couple of dozen Doll-Man stories from the time period Cei-U! cited and find myself cursing that wretched barrier established in the 1950s which cut such high calibre storytelling short when it should have gone on forever. And that's with a shrinking character who didn't have access to a time machine. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 2, 2020 23:34:24 GMT -5
Well, no shrinking character has been able to sustain its own series for an extended period of time. Quality's Doll Man ran without interruption from 1939 to 1953. Fifteen years sounds like an extended period of time to me.
But to get back to taxi's original post, Schwartz's problems with the character weren't iherent in the premise, only with the execution. He and Gardner Fox insisted on building their plots around size-changing gimmicks (just as Flash was plotted around speed gimmicks) instead of being driven by character. Ray Palmer was a cipher in the Silver Age without a single distinguishing characteristic. The best they could do in the Bronze Age was give him an inferiority complex when with the JLA. It wasn't until Jan Strnad and Gil Kane concocted the Sword of the Atom mini that we finally saw the pre-Crisis Mighty Mite fleshed out... and it was apparently too little, too late.
So, no, it's not the character that's limited, but the imaginations of those creating his adventures.
Cei-U! I summon the white drawf star!
The Ray/Jean relationship (where SHE wanted to focus on her career, not marriage) was unique, interesting, and a damn sight more progressive than any of their competitors super-books, relationship-wise. I'd count that as a distinguishing characteristic. |
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Post by zaku on Feb 3, 2020 2:40:37 GMT -5
He and Gardner Fox insisted on building their plots around size-changing gimmicks (just as Flash was plotted around speed gimmicks) instead of being driven by character. Ray Palmer was a cipher in the Silver Age without a single distinguishing characteristic. I suppose you can say something similar about almost every DC character pre-bronze age? |
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Post by brutalis on Feb 3, 2020 7:35:02 GMT -5
Atom has a power in shrinking which is the opposite of Flash. Shrinking down to infinitesimal nothingness versus the flashy (sorry) super speed doesn't really compare overly much for most folks. But Atom, like Flash has one of the most incredible super powers that literally does make him unbeatable and capable of stopping ANY villain there is. How do you fight somebody who can go sub-molecular instantaneously and enter your body and enlarge creating instant lobotomy or brain death or exploding lungs or heart? What villain is ever going to want to even consider facing Atom? Joker possibly, because he is freaking crazy ass bat shit insane so he would be the only one stupid enough to try.
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Post by zaku on Feb 3, 2020 8:33:53 GMT -5
Atom has a power in shrinking which is the opposite of Flash. Shrinking down to infinitesimal nothingness versus the flashy (sorry) super speed doesn't really compare overly much for most folks. But Atom, like Flash has one of the most incredible super powers that literally does make him unbeatable and capable of stopping ANY villain there is. How do you fight somebody who can go sub-molecular instantaneously and enter your body and enlarge creating instant lobotomy or brain death or exploding lungs or heart? What villain is ever going to want to even consider facing Atom? Joker possibly, because he is freaking crazy ass bat shit insane so he would be the only one stupid enough to try. Well, in Power Of The Atom He showed that if he wanted he could be an unstoppable death machine (it was the latter 80s, so Dark and Gritty was the way). |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 3, 2020 8:56:32 GMT -5
The only time I liked Atom was in the mini where he became Conan.
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