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Post by tarkintino on Jan 15, 2020 5:13:30 GMT -5
but what I have read about Ditko and Kirby leads me to the conclusion that Kirby was a much nicer, kinder, more humane person than Ditko who, quite frankly, sounds like a bit of an arse. ...among other negative things.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 15, 2020 10:03:16 GMT -5
I suppose I prefer Kirby, though I'm not a fan of either one.
And yeah, Ditko's figures look like bendy toys.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 10:09:18 GMT -5
And yeah, Ditko's figures look like bendy toys. I think you have a point. I wanted to make a similar comment, but was not sure how to articulate it. But you did.
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Post by MDG on Jan 15, 2020 10:25:00 GMT -5
Put it this way: one could argue with confidence that The Fantastic Four never looked better/had a greater impact after the Kirby/Sinnott run, but few ever say that about The Amazing Spider-Man after Ditko's departure. In fact, its almost always the extreme opposite. So, if you are forced to choose between the two, that should give anyone an easy choice to make about the greater talent. I think that looking at these two creators through the lens of what happened to flagship characters they created after they stopped working on them is pretty limiting. I don't think either wanted to just draw superheroes for the rest of their career and were looking for some form of personal expression. Kirby was in one way more fortunate late career in that his work was more "conventional", like Kamandi or even the Eternals, and he was able to function as an idea man in animation. But he also had a family to feed.
Ditko lived, apparently, a pretty spartan life and wanted to work on his own stuff, taking mainstream jobs once in a while. If he wanted to he could've, like some artists, made a damn good income doing commissions and recreations, but he preferred to put that behind him.
*Takes jacket off* Sir, would you care to step outside for a moment? *Holds Taxidriver's jacket* I'm not normally one for letting the personality of an artist get in the way of their art. Their political/social views are of little interest to me - unless explicitly made manifest in their work - it's what they DO that matters to me. Some abhorrent human beings have made great art over the years - but what I have read about Ditko and Kirby leads me to the conclusion that Kirby was a much nicer, kinder, more humane person than Ditko who, quite frankly, sounds like a bit of an arse. On the other hand, most people who knew and worked with Ditko seemed to feel he was always professional and pleasant. One artist (who started in comics in the 70s and is still working today) said he was introduced to Ditko at the DC offices once and was a little tongue tied and only said how much he enjoyed Ditko's work.
A couple of weeks later, he was in NYC and heard someone calling his name from across the street: it was Ditko, waving to him with a big smile on his face.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,528
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Post by Confessor on Jan 15, 2020 12:10:14 GMT -5
This is a difficult question because it's really apples and oranges. Both had really different strengths and excelled at different types of stories.
That said, I voted for Steve Ditko because Kirby's art has never really been my cup of tea aesthetically. I appreciate its strengths, but Kirby's art doesn't give me the same thrill as Ditko's, or evoke as much atmosphere. Also, Spider-Man is my #1 superhero and I'm also a big, big fan of Dr. Strange. So, yeah, it had to be Ditko really.
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Post by profh0011 on Jan 15, 2020 12:27:23 GMT -5
Kirby... ...or Ditko... ...that's a toughie!
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Post by foxley on Jan 15, 2020 16:52:31 GMT -5
I guess there is no comparison. I cannot recall Ditko ever drawing something comparable to this: (Just demonstrating that anyone can cherry-pick their examples. )
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 15, 2020 22:57:40 GMT -5
All discussions on art are apples and oranges, because there is no absolute to argue. It is all subjective.
For me, it is Kirby. His dynamic pacing, epic staging and breadth of concepts engages me far more. He creates myth on an epic scale. He also explores concepts of great variety, when you examine his work, yet he never loses sight of the fact that the medium he was using is designed for telling entertaining stories.
Ditko's style, aesthetically, holds less for me. It is more interior than exterior and I respond less to it. Ialso find many of his characters to be thinly sketched and lacking in personality, or embodied with personalities I don't care for (though some of that is due to his writer collaborators, like with Spider-Man). That's not to say I don't respond to his work, as I greatly enjoy his Charlton stuff, compared to more of his Marvel and DC work. Also, I prefer his 60s Marvel and DC work to his 70s and beyond work. The more objectivism becomes central to his work, the less I enjoy it, as his art feels as rigid as his ideology.
I've always responded to heroic adventure and Kirby is, literally, the king of that. However, it took me a long time to come to Kirby. I was weaned on the more classic illustrator style of DC and Kirby, in the 70s, was more abstract. It took seeing more of his 60s work (and reprints of his 40s and 50s) work to appreciate how he evolved. Also, as my tastes evolved, I found myself pulled back to Kirby and could see the power in his work and understand more of his concepts. Mark Evanier has described how Jack could say something and the meaning of it wouldn't hit you until later, when you gained perspective. That was both Jack's genius and weakness. he wasn't always able to convey his idea.
Ditko I prefer more on psychological stories; but, I've never been a big horror fan and his style of mystery is also one I don't gravitate towards. I am drawn to action detectives and great thinkers (Holmes and Columbo), as well as interesting personalities within detectives.
Ditko's designs for cosmic settings are tremendous pieces of work; but, his reality is a bit depressing, for my tastes.
All that said, neither is my favorite artist. Toth has been thrown out and he is a pure visual storyteller, though he needs writers more than Kirby or Ditko did. Kurbert conveys more humanity in his characters; but, I have never been big on his superheroes, after the 50s. Adams is sleek and dynamic, though you start to notice a sameness in his stories, when left to his own devices. he is another who needs inspiration from the writer. Mike Grell is probably my favorite, stylistically, though he is another who struggles with superheroes, of a certain type. he does fantasy and adventure well; but he looks for realism, which makes his style work better with less fantastic characters.
Eisner was a genius with visual character acting an Jack Cole was a genius with imagination and visual style.
Byrne and Perez excel at superheroes; but often struggle with human characters and stories. Byrne dida great Enemy Ace story; but, it was more a Kubert pastiche than it was a story of a soldier tormented by the war he fights. Byrne captured the visual style, while Kubert captured the raw emotion. Both Perez and Byrne capture humanity within their super beings; but, not as much with their human beings.
Chaykin is a big favorite, but, on certain types of characters and stories. I don't want a Chaykin Superman story or the X-Men; but,a Chaykin tale of a pulpier Golden Age character is a treat, as well as a cynical rogue fighting fascists, in any age or environment.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jan 16, 2020 0:26:28 GMT -5
I had to give in and vote for Ditko just because I have to make it less lopsided if I can. Ditko inked by Wood is one of my absolute favorite combos (and of course Kirby inked by Wood was also very cool). But let me sum it up with... Konga #1.
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Post by junkmonkey on Jan 16, 2020 4:22:44 GMT -5
Argh! Sorry, Becca, That pic just gives me the whim-whams. From the one-legged guy with the dislocated neck bottom left - actually ALL those people are one legged so maybe Konga has interrupted a monoped convention and they're all hopping like crazy - "Hop away! Hop for your lives!" Konga's weird, rubbery left hand and vestigialy-thumbed right, the variably sized planes - if the blue jet blasting Konga's right armpit - "Dammit, General, we've tried everything else.... Let's tickle the bugger and see what happens!". If that blue jet is in front of Mr K, like it think it supposed to be and far enough in front to think the pilot has a chance of pulling away, then the yellow one about to smash into his right shoulder is HUGE!
And Kirby's machines are just so COOL!
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Post by brutalis on Jan 16, 2020 7:30:11 GMT -5
Argh! Sorry, Becca, That pic just gives me the whim-whams. From the one-legged guy with the dislocated neck bottom left - actually ALL those people are one legged so maybe Konga has interrupted a monoped convention and they're all hopping like crazy - "Hop away! Hop for your lives!" Konga's weird, rubbery left hand and vestigialy-thumbed right, the variably sized planes - if the blue jet blasting Konga's right armpit - "Dammit, General, we've tried everything else.... Let's tickle the bugger and see what happens!". If that blue jet is in front of Mr K, like it think it supposed to be and far enough in front to think the pilot has a chance of pulling away, then the yellow one about to smash into his right shoulder is HUGE! And Kirby's machines are just so COOL! Yes there is all kind of wonky going on in that splash, but dang if it ain't energetic, enthusiastic and makes you want to read more! I think that is one of the pieces of Ditko the artist which I like: that there is a feel of amateurism combined with imagination and a vibrant dosage of unreality and surrealism. Ditko is fresh and earnest in some ways where Kirby comes across as more seasoned, a professional who continually pushed to be more creative, evolving style and story and ideas whereever he went. Ditko is that nascent neanderthal in all of us who does what he does consistently without much effort to evolve or change, being happy in doing what he is capable of. and not really striving for anything more than that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 8:04:19 GMT -5
It's been interesting reading both sides' arguments.
I am not sure anyone does grandeur better than Jack Kirby. And I'm not sure anyone does mystical realms better than Ditko. Despite my vote, it was a tough one.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 16, 2020 8:59:04 GMT -5
Kirby by a blowout. I always felt Ditko was overrated.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 16, 2020 9:01:04 GMT -5
I guess there is no comparison. I cannot recall Ditko ever drawing something comparable to this: (Just demonstrating that anyone can cherry-pick their examples. ) I think I recall reading ( maybe by Cei-U) that Kirby was having vision problems near the end of his career. I remember Ditko putting out bad art in his later years, as well.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 16, 2020 9:21:11 GMT -5
Ditko is that nascent neanderthal in all of us who does what he does consistently without much effort to evolve or change, being happy in doing what he is capable of. and not really striving for anything more than that. Some comic artists naturally altered their work because it was to their advantage in consideration of the charaxters/companies they worked for (e.g. Giordano at Charlton compared to his DC work), others were a force of nature with work that always pointed toward a hyper-innovative, game-changing understanding of the medium (and a photographer's eye), such as Adams, Romita Sr. and Steranko, but you always had that artist who was content to just roll out the same thing over and over, either because he lacked the ability to tweak art if the story demanded it, or he was sort of hung-up on whatever made him tick, informing the work in none too pleasing ways. Ditko appeared to fall into that category. It was fine for a title and/or character where his style/layouts fit a bizarre subject matter, such as Dr. Strange or The Creeper (the latter to a certain degree), but take him out of that, and he was out of place almost all of the time, and yes, I include The Amazing Spider-Man as an example of that.
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