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Post by String on Jan 24, 2020 18:31:37 GMT -5
However, if you're considering Kirby as a creator overall or even visionary, then I think the list just got very short indeed. The man's influence on the medium and industry is staggering. Longevity of his career alongside no appreciable drop in his creativity also has to be considered. I'm not sure who else may have had such a dynamic and long-standing impact. Eisner perhaps?
Just want to mention that in the context of American comics that's almost certainly true but there are different comic traditions out there in the wider world. Who knows who someone bought up exclusively in the Franco-Belge BD world say would nominate as the most influential artist - Herge perhaps? I don't know enough to draw up a short list.
I would think Moebius as well.
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Post by junkmonkey on Jan 24, 2020 19:08:06 GMT -5
I would think Moebius as well.
Mais oui, bien sûr!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 24, 2020 21:09:27 GMT -5
Who knows who someone bought up exclusively in the Franco-Belge BD world say would nominate as the most influential artist - Herge perhaps? Well, it was Hergé who first introduced the American style of comic book art (panels of sequential art with dialogue in speech balloons) to Europe. The first Tintin story, Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, from 1929, is apparently the first time that this style of comic art ever appeared in Europe. He also single-handedly created the ligne claire (French: "clear line") style of comic artwork that has dominated Franco-Belgian comics for the past 80+ years. So yeah, I think Hergé is almost certainly the single most influential artist within the bande dessinées.
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Post by beccabear67 on Jan 24, 2020 21:48:01 GMT -5
I thought Hergé was fairly heavily influenced by George McManus of Bringing Up Father/Jiggs & Maggie? I said earlier the only other creator to compare with Jack Kirby would be Osamu Tezuka. In terms of pioneering genres, influencing others, and having characters live on after him.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jan 25, 2020 6:32:00 GMT -5
I thought Hergé was fairly heavily influenced by George McManus of Bringing Up Father/Jiggs & Maggie? You might well be right. I have no idea which specific American comic strips influenced him when he created Tintin in the Land of the Soviets. I just know that it was the first time an American-style comic strip had been published in Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 9:15:58 GMT -5
Interesting (if it's real):
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 9:57:39 GMT -5
Regarding my "If it's real..." comment, I have no reason to think anything isn't real, but more than once, on social media and elsewhere, I've made a fool of myself sharing something I *thought* was real, often resulting in everyone from followers and friends to Santa Claus informing me of my mistake. So "If it's real..." is just a handy disclaimer for me on the worldwide web. I'm not cynical. I am sure the second letter (the one I am thinking of) is real. But if turned out not to be, at least my disclaimer stands.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 18:19:05 GMT -5
Time to share this:
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Post by kongat44 on Mar 30, 2020 20:15:43 GMT -5
I also don't like Ditko or Kirby dialog, Stan did a great job on their books. As far as who I prefer, I will go with my favorite comic book artist of all time, Mr. Steve Ditko. His worlds may not be as big, or bold, but they are just as lived in, and in a way, I guess more intimate. The same could be said of his characters, they are much more ordinary, and even when he does a super powered one like Eternity, it is really the anti Kirby in design. Just the way his mind worked. I love all his pre-Marvel work, and love his Marvel work, as well as his after Marvel stuff. One thing is sure, I am not sure you could pick two more distinct comic artists to have a thread about. One recognizes their work within seconds of seeing it. By the way, I love both, I just prefer Ditko.
As I posted this I saw my avatar is a Ditko, how typical.
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Post by profh0011 on Mar 30, 2020 20:46:21 GMT -5
Whether one prefers one person's writing style on someone else's STORIES or not may be a matter of personal taste. Like preferring McDonald's hamburgers to those from Red Robin's. The unfortunate thing many are unaware of, is HOW MUCH Marvel's editor often TOTALLY CHANGED the other people's stories, perverting their original intentions, and altering the personalities of the characters involved in the process. Most Marvel fans have no idea how much FAR-BETTER stories they were robbed of, for more than a 10-year-period.
And that doesn't even get into all the plot holes and continuity errors that crept in, because of the uncaring, lackadaisical manner in which so many of those books were dialogued. Things that-- incidentally-- NEVER appeared in any of Jack Kirby's solo work. They wouldn't, of course. HE created the characters, HE wrote the stories. He KNEW what was going on, and why. His editor..................... didn't. And often, didn't care.
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Post by berkley on Mar 31, 2020 1:15:14 GMT -5
Whether one prefers one person's writing style on someone else's STORIES or not may be a matter of personal taste. Like preferring McDonald's hamburgers to those from Red Robin's. The unfortunate thing many are unaware of, is HOW MUCH Marvel's editor often TOTALLY CHANGED the other people's stories, perverting their original intentions, and altering the personalities of the characters involved in the process. Most Marvel fans have no idea how much FAR-BETTER stories they were robbed of, for more than a 10-year-period. And that doesn't even get into all the plot holes and continuity errors that crept in, because of the uncaring, lackadaisical manner in which so many of those books were dialogued. Things that-- incidentally-- NEVER appeared in any of Jack Kirby's solo work. They wouldn't, of course. HE created the characters, HE wrote the stories. He KNEW what was going on, and why. His editor..................... didn't. And often, didn't care. I don't mind continuity errors so much, or in some cases even plot holes, but I do think that Stan often didn't get the thematic underpinnings of Kirby's stories (e.g. the Beehive/Him 2-parter ) or the nature of his characters (e.g. the Silver Surfer); and I think that would have been an even bigger problem with later works like the New Gods or the Eternals. So much as I like Stan's dialogue and humour, it would have ruined both those projects if he - or I think anyone else, for that matter - had done the scripts over Kirby's plotting.
That's a negative reason for not wanting a scripter, but there's a positive reason too: I think Kirby's dialogue and captions time and time again encapsulate some of the ideas crucial to both those works and I wouldn't want to lose those moments. They'd be lesser works with someone else scripting, no matter who it was.
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Post by kirby101 on Mar 31, 2020 8:47:42 GMT -5
I think the difference with New Gods is that Kirby was the editor. With Stan, he drew a story based on their conversation (or not) and then Stan wrote what he wanted. With the Fourth World, Kirby would have made the story clear to the scripter and then could edit it to make sure it said what he wanted. His big problem was he saw the writer (Stan) getting more credit than he did. Perhaps he could have done it as Written by Jack Kirby, Dialog by..., but who knows if DC would allow such credit. He would have needed a writer who understood his sensibilities, the way Royer understood his pencils.
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Post by MDG on Mar 31, 2020 9:16:07 GMT -5
I think the difference with New Gods is that Kirby was the editor. With Stan, he drew a story based on their conversation (or not) and then Stan wrote what he wanted. With the Fourth World, Kirby would have made the story clear to the scripter and then could edit it to make sure it said what he wanted. His big problem was he saw the writer (Stan) getting more credit than he did. Perhaps he could have done it as Written by Jack Kirby, Dialog by..., but who knows if DC would allow such credit. He would have needed a writer who understood his sensibilities, the way Royer understood his pencils. That's what DC did w/ Ditko--several of his stories are credited "Story by Steve Ditko, Dialog by Michael Fleischer," or something like that.
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Post by junkmonkey on Mar 31, 2020 9:37:33 GMT -5
I'll say one thing for this thread. I have come to appreciate Ditko's art more than I used to. I've taken to looking at his stuff more closely and realise, once I get past the stylistic quirks I dislike so much, there is some pretty darn good stuff going on.
I still prefer Kirby though.
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Post by brutalis on Apr 1, 2020 14:38:45 GMT -5
And for me it is those individualistic style & design quirks that I am admiring the most. The Kirby mechanical designs. Kirby Krackle. Kirby squared fingers/hands. The Kirby lunge/flying foreward. Kirby powerful roundhouse punches. Kirby outrageously oversized headgear/helmets. Ditko rubbery/bendy legs. Ditko fantasy realms. Ditko rounded heads. Ditko powerhouse uppercuts. Ditko multiple action poses of Spidey across a panel/page to depict his speed/agility. Ditko eyes. Ditko women. Ditko space/aliens/astronauts. Ditko swords/sorcery. So much more style, design and ingenuity than much of what todays artists attempts in being too realistic or believable. I dont need vehicles or animals to being photo realistic when generally simpler caricatures can show or tell as much or more without detracting from the story or art.
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