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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 7:56:33 GMT -5
On the subject of numbers, I do like high numbering. For many reasons.
A high number issue isn't good because of a high number. It's entirely possible that the 1,000th issue of a comic could have a poor storyline or art that didn't appeal.
But I do like the sense of history. Batman #400 (1986) is my earliest Batman memory. Yes, it was about enjoying the story, but here was a title with 400 issues under its belt. That means, potentially, my father and stepfather may have read them (I won't mention my mother as I don't think she read any superhero comics). It might seem odd that you could enjoy a book because your father/stepfather may have read it. But it had been around for a while. I even remember trying to calculate when a particular issue had started based on its issue number.
Action Comics #584 (one of my favourite issues) was a story I enjoyed on its own merits, but how great to think it had been around a while.
Putting aside all my criticisms of Marvel, well I think it'd be nice to think that Avengers could one day reach its 800th issue. Or have a bigger-than-normal logo for the Hulk's 900th issue. But, hey, go on renumbering, Marvel. The most pointless thing ever. Make it difficult for the person who wants to order Deadpool #1 from comiXology.
On a final note, what was wrong with comics, and quite a few British comics did this, simply exclaiming "A Bold New Direction!" on the front cover. This modern obsession with renumbering every five minutes, or every time a new creative team comes on board, is ludicrous. I just hope it doesn't "infect" UK comics like The Beano and 2000 AD?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 3, 2020 8:44:21 GMT -5
To be fair, Marvel does have the 'legacy numbering' on a regular basis... in some cases you may agree or disagree on what they consider the 'main' book, but it's there, and they certainly still do anniversary issues.
I think if monthly survive long enough, they'll change again soon... #1s no longer have any value, it's all about 1st appearances, and the 'sales bump' seems to be nearly non existent. Hopefully someone will come up with some new stuff.
Anyone seen anything how the Walmart giants are doing? My local Walmart doesn't carry them, so I've never seen any 'in the wild'
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Post by rberman on Jan 3, 2020 8:49:08 GMT -5
Anyone seen anything how the Walmart giants are doing? My local Walmart doesn't carry them, so I've never seen any 'in the wild' They are hard to find at mine, buried on an aisle halfway down one particular checkout lane. You would have to know to look for them, which defeats the purpose of the experiment. Not like the old Archie digests, which were prominent at every checkout lane for easy impulse buying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 9:12:56 GMT -5
To be fair, Marvel does have the 'legacy numbering' on a regular basis... In my opinion, that's doubly ludicrous. Talk about having your cake and wanting to eat it!
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Post by The Captain on Jan 3, 2020 10:47:04 GMT -5
@taxidriver1980, I get your frustration and feelings toward Marvel, as I have been there myself. Is the current Captain America slow? Yup, but that is how Coates writes and paces his books. If you go in expecting the story to move at 100 miles per hour, you will be disappointed. I had to learn to accept that this book, which for a while was the only Marvel book I was buying, is not going to be a thrill ride. He uses the book and the character to say something about America and politics, so it's not non-stop action but rather more quiet moments and philosophical contemplation. As for making blanket statements about "being done with Marvel", well, you can do that, but you might miss something good. I'm not currently reading Immortal Hulk, but thwhtguardian really likes it and feels it's a high-quality book. Jason Aaron has been doing great work on Thor over the past decade. Some folks have really loved Squirrel-Girl or Devil Dinosaur and Moon Girl. The various "Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel" series have been pretty good, and I've enjoyed them a lot, even though I'm not the target audience for them. Even the current Fantastic Four series, a concept long-since believed dead, has been getting decent reviews. Heck, I gave up on the X-Men a number of years ago, and this from a guy who owns every issue from #94 up (and everything before that in the two Omnibus editions). I felt they had run their course and were just rehashing old stuff, but then along comes Hickman with his current revamp of the franchise, and all of a sudden, I have two "X" books on my pull list again after not having one there for well over a decade. I won't get into the economics of the comic industry, why there are constant #1's and revamps and reboots and reimaginings, because you know all of that stuff already. This is an emotional argument, and data won't change your mind, and that's perfectly reasonable. I would just suggest you keep your mind open, because you might find something from Marvel in six months or a year that you really like, but if you don't, that's OK also. It takes a lot of different folks to make this world go round, so you have to do what is best for you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 11:11:45 GMT -5
Anyone seen anything how the Walmart giants are doing? My local Walmart doesn't carry them, so I've never seen any 'in the wild' They are no longer Walmart exclusive and are now available through Diamond as well. Walmart gets them 2-3 weeks before comic shops with a cover using pre-existing art, comic shops get them afterwards with new art for the cover. The interior contents and cover price are the same. They ended all the series, started some over and created new ones, all with new #1s and they are no longer strictly monthly. Some are every 6 weeks, some bi-monthly, some quarterly, some are just 1-shots. Not sure how sales were, well enough they are continuing in the Walmarts, but they did cave to complaints from direct retailers about not getting the books despite the fact the new stories were released to the direct market in a direct series that reprinted 2 chapters at a time (I think they were called Batman Universe and Superman Universe, plus a Titans and a Wonder Woman series I cannot recall the titles) and collected in trades sold on the direct market. The newer non-exclusive giants have more original content (2-3 stories) and some reprints. The lead story of each has a consistent creative team with a continuing story, the other new stories are done in one by various creative teams. -M
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Post by brutalis on Jan 3, 2020 11:25:05 GMT -5
As others have been saying, I pretty much just pick or choose from Marvel/DC or other publishers which sparks my interest. Following a series or character on a regular basis anymore is not something I do purely from an economical aspect. Sadly, from Marvel those things which I do check out don't seem to be what I want in the long run. DC gets my consistent $$ these days with Flash, Hawkman and Terrifics while IDW gets me for Uncle Scrooge and the Larry Hama G. I. Joe and the occasional Transformers. I do try to note new things of interest from ANY publisher with each new weeks releases and then will either buy a few issues or browse through when at the LCS to help decide if I wish to try it out. The CCF weekly reviews have actually helped me in the decision process a few times to either pick up something or put it aside. Immortal Hulk is on my to try list just because of the reviews here Being done with any company should mean you won't mindlessly purchase any/everything they put out anymore, instead choosing to support the writers or artists or series you truly enjoy and want more of.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 12:02:56 GMT -5
I'm pleased that people's replies have understood my personal reasons. There is, of course, a time and a place for discussions about business, market realities, etc.
And although I am done with Marvel for now, it is, as stated, current Marvel. If I'm lucky enough to see "Essential Luke Cage" (going for nearly 90 quid on Amazon UK!) in an old bookstore, it's mine!
I get the point about Titanic deckchair arrangement. It's a mess. I mean, about 18 months ago, I wanted to try a G.I. Joe issue, not having read one in years. I went into my LCS and couldn't find it. Dave told me, "We don't stock that and it's strictly a pull list title. It's never sold well here." I understand that. But to think, back in the day, G.I. Joe might have been on a spinner rack in the corner shop, the railway station store, the grocery store, etc.
What kind of industry becomes so niche?
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Post by brutalis on Jan 3, 2020 14:13:39 GMT -5
I'm pleased that people's replies have understood my personal reasons. There is, of course, a time and a place for discussions about business, market realities, etc. And although I am done with Marvel for now, it is, as stated, current Marvel. If I'm lucky enough to see "Essential Luke Cage" (going for nearly 90 quid on Amazon UK!) in an old bookstore, it's mine! I get the point about Titanic deckchair arrangement. It's a mess. I mean, about 18 months ago, I wanted to try a G.I. Joe issue, not having read one in years. I went into my LCS and couldn't find it. Dave told me, "We don't stock that and it's strictly a pull list title. It's never sold well here." I understand that. But to think, back in the day, G.I. Joe might have been on a spinner rack in the corner shop, the railway station store, the grocery store, etc. What kind of industry becomes so niche? Sadly this "niche" marketing is translating into everything sold anymore. There is no longer a large "variety" of company products to value price against. Walk into a grocery store and try to buy something like Pop-Tarts and you see that where there used to be endless supplies of various flavors and in both 8 or 16 package boxes, you now will find those choices severely limited forcing you to purchase "what" the store wants you to. Many stores are only stocking 8 count boxes of those which sell the most: Chocolate, Frosted Blueberry or Frosted Brown Cinnamon and you can barely find any Un-frosted regular flavors and some stores only carrying the larger 16 package boxes which cost more to increase their revenue. Malt-O-Meal cereals no longer make the regular Colossal Crunch which is imitation Cap'n Crunch and instead push only the Berry Colossal Crunch and you cannot find the Corn Bursts anymore in stores as well. It is almost impossible for finding no salt added corn but you can get 50% less sodium cans off the shelves because of a 30 cent cost difference. Who would have imagined a day when Hostess, the makers of Ding Dongs/Twinkies as a company would go out of business when everybody ate them but families were instead buying the cheaper rip-off versions? Niche sales will close everything out. Radio Shack THE electronic specialty go to store is gone. Brick and mortar new book stores are all gone except for Barnes and Noble. Used book stores are nearly extinct except for those doing large sales via internet. Soon enough the LCS for comic books will soon be a thing of the past as well with the reader/collector market dwindling. If the comic book publisher's don't change their models soon from the focus upon umpteen standard monthlies which are cost unproductive sales wise, then they will eventually keep losing money until they print only "guaranteed" sellers and we are stuck with just BIG NAME's selling. You will find 10 Batman books but no Hawkman or 10 Spider-Man variation's but no Spider-Woman unless used as guest-stars for copyright purposes. The world of variety is long gone in these current times.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 14:49:47 GMT -5
And yet one didn't need to be a psychic to predict all this. Wasn't anyone in the industry, influential or otherwise, warning against this? From his posts, John Byrne certainly was. He seemed to be able to see the future. It was going to lead us here.
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Post by The Captain on Jan 3, 2020 14:53:19 GMT -5
brutalis, how I wish I could give you more than just one measly like for your post. The biggest factor in everything you wrote is "risk avoidance" from the corporations. We used to live in a world where companies would innovate, take chances, give the world something new and hope it took off, but if it didn't, they went and created something else. What changed is that the corporations became beholden to Wall Street and the shareholders, so they can't do anything that might drop that precious stock price a few cents, because then Wall Street will see them as a bad investment and the shareholders will complain that their dividends dropped and they aren't making as much money as they thought they would. New products? No way, but they'll gladly repackage, reshape, resize, and rehash things that are already proven winners, because people by and large don't like to take risks. It's why the multiple CSI shows and NCIS and procedural cop shows are so popular, because they are familiar and predictable and people take comfort in more of the same old, same old. I had a recent conversation with a guy at my local grocery store that drove this home. He works for the Coca-Cola distributor in our area, and one early Sunday morning, I was in the soda aisle looking for Cinnamon Coke, which was one of their two new holiday offerings. I don't drink a lot of soda, but I had come across this at my local gaming shop and enjoyed it, so I wanted to pick up some while it was on sale (my store was running a "four 12-packs for $12" deal, and I needed to pick up some other varieties for a holiday party my wife and I were hosting anyway). There was only one 12-pack of the Cinnamon Coke on the shelf, so I asked the guy if he would be delivering any more, and he told me that the drivers were under strict orders not to deliver any more of it to stores. It hadn't sold enough, so the company had decided rather than distribute it and have it on the shelves unsold, they would just hold it back and eventually destroy it. Even worse, their other holiday flavor was Spiced Cranberry Sprite, which he told me was pulled off of the shelves after just three weeks, as it sold incredibly poorly and the company was in the process of destroying their entire remaining stock of it; I had never even seen that, either advertised or on the shelves. Three weeks for a barely-advertised new product and already it was declared a failure? This is the world we live in, where if something doesn't take off immediately, it is viewed as a liability to the bottom line. Firefly? 8 episodes aired, then Fox killed the rest. John Carter movie? Early critics said it sucked, so it must suck and no one went to see it, and while it isn't Godfather II, it's not a bad movie and certainly not the worst way to kill a couple of hours. I'm anticipating a not-to-distant future where your prediction about comics comes true. We'll get Batman and Spider-Man and Avengers and Deadpool, but that will be about it. No Squirrel Girl, no Hawkman, no books like Sandman or Preacher or the Kamala Khan Ms Marvel, because WHAT IF WE PRINT THEM AND NO ONE BUYS THEM AND WE COST THE SHAREHOLDERS MONEY? /rant
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 15:01:04 GMT -5
I read an biography about Lew Grade once. If people don't know who that is, he's worth a Google. From the biography I read, that was a guy who took risks (he was a TV producer). Seems like he would take a risk knowing the rewards were possible.
But I know fans can be their own worst enemies at times. Someone I know tells me he feels Deadpool is overexposed - yet from his Facebook posts, I happen to know he buys all the Deadpool comics he can. Sounds like an addiction. His life, his choices. No judgement from me. But how can you then say Deadpool is overexposed?
I'm no paragon of virtue. This is a very personal decision for me. But I realise that you can be a pawn or you can take yourself off the damn chess board! This pawn is removing himself from the comic book chess board. For now, it's Marvel. DC aren't entirely blameless, although they feel just a little bit less gimmicky and bureaucratic than Marvel. I just don't want to play the game anymore. My £££s mean something to me. And my income fluctuates anyway. I've been a prat at times, picking up "Chaos War" tie-ins or letting Marvel turn my wallet into a 'bottomless wallet'. I've allowed myself to be part of it all. Well, the pawn has left the building. You're not getting £3-4 from me for "Captain America: The Talking Heads".
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 4, 2020 7:43:24 GMT -5
I just want to respond to the " but the readers from the 50's wouldn't like the comics of the 70's or 80" line. While change can be jarring to a consistent reader, I will ask a question- who has gone on recored to say that they LIKE the current 6 issues to tell a 2 issue story format ? I haven't read of anyone saying that they enjoy a comic that costs 4 bucks that has nothing but people talking.
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Post by rberman on Jan 4, 2020 8:23:41 GMT -5
I just want to respond to the " but the readers from the 50's wouldn't like the comics of the 70's or 80" line. While change can ge jarring to a consistent reader, I will ask a question- who has gone on recored to say that they LIKE the current 6 issues to tell a 2 issue story format ? I haven't read of anyone saying that they enjoy a comic that costs 4 bucks that has nothing but people talking. I can think of quite a few examples that I like. However,, I don’t experience them as stand-alone issues since I buy them years later in compilations. I don’t know how I would feel if I was buying them on a monthly basis. I recall one issue of the manga Gantz that tried to push this to the limit, taking up one whole issue depicting one sword stroke of a warrior killing a dinosaur, and another of a terrorist spraying a crowd with bullets. I probably would have been angry to pay full price for that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 8:28:17 GMT -5
I just want to respond to the " but the readers from the 50's wouldn't like the comics of the 70's or 80" line. While change can ge jarring to a consistent reader, I will ask a question- who has gone on recored to say that they LIKE the current 6 issues to tell a 2 issue story format ? I haven't read of anyone saying that they enjoy a comic that costs 4 bucks that has nothing but people talking. That's an interesting point. I know people who buy such things, but despite their purchases, they can be critical. I know fans can be their own worst enemies, but it's not uncommon for me to hear from someone complaining about numerous X-books, and long X-arcs, but also be the one first in the queue to buy them. With changes in the past, and I am no expert, perhaps they were "organic". There's nothing "organic" about the 6-issue decompression era. It feels to me like the tail wagging the dog. It feels like a diktat from on high ("We want to keep selling trades so make your story fit 6 issues."). And that leads me to being extremely dissatisfied with "Captain America: The Talking Heads" over Christmas. If a story needs six issues to tell, so be it. Some may. Some may need three issues. I'm not sure the Galactus epic could have been told in one issue. I'm fine with stories organically requiring a bigger scope. But I am not fine with Tail Wagging The Dog Publishing making everything fit that format so as to sell trades. I don't want to keep bashing that Cap story, but Cap's comic was one I tried to pick up a lot as a kid (depending on if the corner shop stocked it). There was always a battle in each episode. Or some hijinks. And lots of words. That nothing really happened in the issue I referred to is frustrating. Just talk. Well, why did a moron like myself buy it? I should have waited for the trade. It's not a perfect comparison, but imagine if TV shows released their episodes on single discs (one episode at a time)? Off to HMV you head for a single disc of Scream. But if you wait a few months, you can get the entire season, which makes sense. No-one would do that even if a single disc was only £3-4. Why are we buying incomplete stories for £3 (or whatever the US currency equivalent is)? One could probably justify it when it was an action-packed 2 or 3-parter back in the day, but £3 for talking heads is not a good investment.
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