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Post by Action Ace on Nov 16, 2014 14:19:50 GMT -5
Hey, don't take my word for it! It's a popular run among many fans, it just wasn't for me. I personally don't care for mid to late 90s Batman comics in general, but many will disagree. IMO the Batman Adventures comics based off the animated series were a lot more entertaining than the "proper" Bat comics from Knightsquest etc up until Rucka and Brubaker arrived. Going to agree here. I'm not a fan of Moench's 1990s Batman at all. |
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Post by Action Ace on Nov 16, 2014 14:25:17 GMT -5
Will you be covering the Robin mini series that starts next month? Or the major Bat Family event in Suicide Squad? Or do you just stick with the main Batman series to keep it under Fifty billion posts? The Suicide Squad story is three reviews away. Yup. I'll be covering the Dixon Robin limited series as well. The Batman 3-D special is coming soon, too. No idea how I'll handle this once the Nightwing and Robin ongoing series begin. I doubt I'll follow Catwoman. The DC Bat Explosion is here! And there won't be an implosion this time. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 16, 2014 17:24:41 GMT -5
Not sure if it's well known, but Tim's new costume wasn't designed by Norm Breyfogle (beyond the 'R' emblem and use of the staff) but by Neal Adams. I also know that Breyfogle's Robin costume from Batman Family was something he felt hadn't been accurately reprocuded when published in that issue. I'm not sure however, if he had an issue with the translation of the line work, or if the costume itself was redesigned somewhat for publication.
About Batman 455-457...
I really liked this storyline at the time and still do. Little moments such as the old lady asking how she did after her killing spree. "Do? You killed two people and wounded two others". "That's not bad, I'm sixty-seven years old, you know". A very cognizant piece of writing on Alan Grant's part, as is Jonathan Crane going on a killing spree simply because the holidays remind him how alone he is. Not an act undertaken because of some petulant lashing out at a world that denies his importance, but what happens when you look at a murderous sociopath the wrong way.
That's something too.
The recent Riddler three-parter had a bloodthirsty Edward Nigma running through its storyline. I recall Oswald Cobblepot murdering a roomfull of policemen in his fairly recent "Penguin Affair", the Joker was, of course, devolving into a bland, unoriginal killer for whom a gun or a crowbar were no longer weapons beneath him, and pretty soon we'll come across Abbattoir - a villain whose gimmick is that he kills for no reason - a prototype for the Joker that we've had since about this period. It's not an interpretation I particularly care for, but the Scarecrow on the otherhand, does actually work as a simple terrorist.
Whereas the Joker for instance, should give some consideration to flamboyance, originality, and style when committing his crimes, the Scarecrow really just has to invoke terror in his victims. Simplicity works for him in ways that it wouldn't for the other members of Batman's Rogues Gallery. He also understands how to put real fear into Batman's mind - through the threat of learning and understanding why he does what he does. Whereas the top villains recognize that killing Batman would rob them of a challenge they crave and therefore settle with attempts to prove their intellectual superiority over him or somehow humiliating him, the Scarecrow is the only one who seems to realise that what Batman fears most, is the destruction of that wall of privacy the Batman identity affords him. I believe Cornelis Stirk touched upon this in his debut appearance, but it's Scarecrow that knows it because he truly is a master of fear.
Tim Drake.
There's a moment during his first night out when he states to Batman "One night out by myself isn't going to kill me" only to immediately realise what a stupid thing that was to say. Whether or not the readers actually thought there was a chance of this new Robin meeting the same end as the previous one is one thing, but for once, the universe these guys lived in seemed to have its doubts about whether or not a kid fighting bad guys was a good thing. Yeah, we've seen Robin argue that Batman doesn't trust him enough and we've seen Robin respond by disobeying orders, but never within this context before. What I appreciate about Tim here is that it does feel as if every danger he faces is a serious threat. There's no disarming a half dozen gun men with a batarang after somersaulting over them with a wisecrack - every person keeping Tim from the Scarecrow is regarded as a valid danger to his life. He keeps his distance from everyone of them - even neutralizing them at times by simply locking them in a room or tripping them with a wire. It's an admirable attempt on Alan Grant's part to address how, if Batman's going to decide to have another kid be Robin after the previous one got blown up, how recklessness will not be part of the equation.
The Funeral of Janet Drake.
Tim Drake's nightmare to the tune of John Lennon's My Mummy's Dead is perfect. Tim invited himself into Batman's world back in Lonely Place of Dying and here his subconscious is questioning his decision. That he's awoken by a Batman who is concerned for his feelings on the day of his mother's funeral however only reminds us that Batman's role in his life isn't that of a general collecting soldiers (a fact that would escape later writers). That Batman visits him in costume though, subtly brings up the mask theme of the storyline without hitting us over the head with it. He's compassionate enough to offer to talk with him, but not strong enough to do so without the mask.
And Norm Breyfogle is excellent as usual. That reveal of Scarecrow at the end of 456, the debut of the new costume, Batman straining every muscle to make the leap from the middle of the walkway to end, succeeding only to fail and then making the best of a situation that's going to leave him in a crumpled mess. I would love to see him on Batman again - that goes for Grant too. |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 17:40:07 GMT -5
Not sure if it's well known, but Tim's new costume wasn't designed by Norm Breyfogle (beyond the 'R' emblem and use of the staff) but by Neal Adams. Yep. I think I mentioned that somewhere in the review. This I did not know. Thanks. Yes, but if anyone else had been writing this story, Batman would have asked the lady and one other victim to retrace the moments leading to their rampages, realized they both got the same letter in the mail and telephone call, and cracked this case in a second before so many innocents died. I just didn't find him at all compelling. This entire plotline felt like it was there just to serve as a reason for Tim Drake to spring into action. But his ultimate punishment for Batman is to coat him with imaginary spiders. I think you're reading more into his depiction here than Grant has actually provided. Except that Tim never seems all that afraid in this story. He never messes up either. Heck, what convenience was it that the shack he locked those first guards in just happened to be their ammo dump? Tim couldn't have known that, but if Grant hadn't written in that little convenient detail, the guards would have shot their way out. It just seemed to permeate the story that the entire premise had been set up for Tim Drake to save Batman; it was an inevitability. Nothing could happen to him. Meanwhile, what's with Batman suddenly getting helplessly captured by The Scarecrow just in time for this story? All conveniences. [/p][/quote] I agree with all of this. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 16, 2014 19:03:33 GMT -5
I really liked a lot of the designs Norm did, especially the feathered looking cape in this picture:  |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 20:04:41 GMT -5
I really liked a lot of the designs Norm did, especially the feathered looking cape in this picture: Where was this published? Interesting that the hood ultimately got incorporated into Damian Wayne's look. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 20:12:23 GMT -5
Has Robin always had a slingshot and I just never noticed?
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 21:03:03 GMT -5
Has Robin always had a slingshot and I just never noticed? I don't recall seeing Tim with a slingshot until much later on. At this point, his weapon of choice was the quarter staff because he conveniently found a pole of some kind while fighting the Scarecrow's henchmen in this issue. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 16, 2014 21:22:44 GMT -5
I really liked a lot of the designs Norm did, especially the feathered looking cape in this picture: Where was this published? Interesting that the hood ultimately got incorporated into Damian Wayne's look. I think it was from the Knight Gallery, but I originally saw it in an article on Norm's site. Thinking on Damian, he also got the feathered cape as well: .png) So I guess it just took a while for Norms ideas to catch on. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Nov 16, 2014 21:31:50 GMT -5
The spiders bit was "just a little fun" prior to what Scarecrow had planned for the rest of the night. "By morning, I'll have peeled away everything you are and then I'll find out what demonic thoughts you've spent your miserable life repressing!" So while I'll concede that Batman should have figured out Crane's involvement in these murders (or at least provided some explanation for why he didn't investigate further) I do think it's nice to see a villain who rather than pulling the old "Well, I've placed you in this deathtrap and set the timer to midnight so please don't try to escape while I'm gone" decides to keep his enemy where he can see him and takes his time with his revenge.
The explosives in the shed bit might be convenient - actually it is convenient - but Tim did know what he's doing as there is a "Calor Gas Explosive" sign on the outside of it. How he would have handled the death of those two men had one of them not noticed the "No Naked Flame" notice is another matter, but his plan is triggered by this convenience rather than the other way around. The difference? You can't really fault Tim being handed this convenient method for detaining these guys and not taking advantage of it. Alan Grant on the otherhand, well that's the reader's call.
Tim doesn't seem too afraid in this story (except when exposed to the fear gas he overcomes through sheer force of will, which I admit is a plot contrivance I've never liked) but I don't think he has to be. Any superhero who's afraid of danger isn't going to amount to much.
And Batman is fairly easily captured by the Scarecrow when compared with past acheivements penned by other writers, but I still think Grant is playing fair with how he's written him before. Off the top of my head, I recall Cornelius Stirk being able to catch him unawares with similar ease in his debut (Batman mistaking the bad guy for the good and the good guy for the bad), Batman getting sloppy enough with a group of terrorists in Tec 590 that he had to ram them with his car while any other writer would have had him handle them with ease, Anarky being able to spraypaint his logo on Batman's cape without Batman even realising he's conscious. Alan Grant's Batman slips up and sometimes (as it is in this issue as far as his forgetting he's supposed to be a detective is concerned) it's a plot contrivance, but it's happened enough and sometimes to such good effect that I can't fault him too badly when it goes wrong. Those examples are ones I consider good by the way (well, with the exception of that Anarky one) and has been worked into his tales during moments when the plot doesn't shift one way or another because of it enough that I'm sure it's something Grant considers to be a genuine part of Batman's psychological make-up rather than something he reaches for during moments of writer's block. ie. Batman getting trounced by a group of homeless people and having to just rest his head against his hand since he isn't about to start hitting a man with no legs. So... alright I can't defend it in this issue (unless you were referring to the ease with which Batman fell for the exploding walkway with your "helplessly caught" comment) but perhaps this goes some ways towards explaining why I can't hold it against Grant too much. 90% of the time I like how injects those little screwups that you never find a comicbook character making into his stories so I feel it would be a bit unfair for me to fault him for the 10% of the time that it goes overboard.
On another note, it's been awhile since you've reviewed an issue for this thread and I'm glad you're back. I hope however, that this isn't a sign that you're planning to wind things down. Some interesting times are coming up - Harold joining the crew, Sarah Essen making her return, Peter Milligan over on Tec following the 600th issue Anniversary of that title, and Doug Moench eventually returning to the Batman title. Will you keep at it for awhile yet or should I just throw my computer in the trash?
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Post by foxley on Nov 17, 2014 1:41:37 GMT -5
Has Robin always had a slingshot and I just never noticed? I don't recall seeing Tim with a slingshot until much later on. At this point, his weapon of choice was the quarter staff because he conveniently found a pole of some kind while fighting the Scarecrow's henchmen in this issue. The slingshot has always been part of Robin's arsenal, with Dick Grayson using one in his very first appearance. I suspect the slingshot here is a deliberate tip of the hat to Robin's history. I seem to recall Tim using a slingshot early in his career, but can't tell you exactly when (so I could be misremembering). I'd always assumed the quarterstaff was a deliberate reference to Robin Hood, one of the inspirations for the Robin name. |
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Post by the4thpip on Nov 18, 2014 3:03:56 GMT -5
Wow, that's a pretty hideous costume... it's like Peter Pan trying to be a super hero. Norm was a kid back then, though. |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 18, 2014 19:09:12 GMT -5
The spiders bit was "just a little fun" prior to what Scarecrow had planned for the rest of the night. "By morning, I'll have peeled away everything you are and then I'll find out what demonic thoughts you've spent your miserable life repressing!" So while I'll concede that Batman should have figured out Crane's involvement in these murders (or at least provided some explanation for why he didn't investigate further) I do think it's nice to see a villain who rather than pulling the old "Well, I've placed you in this deathtrap and set the timer to midnight so please don't try to escape while I'm gone" decides to keep his enemy where he can see him and takes his time with his revenge. Even with that in mind, though, don't forget that The Joker (Arkham Asylum), Whisper (LotDK #6-10) and Hugo Strange (LotDK #11-15) all recently pulled the same schtick, and, while it's more in character for the Scarecrow than for any of them, I felt their efforts came off as more unique and more thoroughly explored. I agree that the concept is a good one for the character, but it's a bit repetitive at this point and, I still maintain, feels like an obligatory conflict offered solely to give Tim an excuse to save Batman. Considering how well Grant has written his villains in the past (I believe you brought up Cornelius Stirk in your previous post), this depiction feels hollow in contrast. Less afraid than Batman, though? And they're confronted with the exact same fear, except that Tim JUST experienced his whereas Batman has been battling his for decades now. EDIT: Sorry. I misread your point. I think we agree here. Tim is appropriately strong up until the fear gas. I see your point, of course. Were this an otherwise solid story, I might excuse it, but the whole thing just feels like a lackluster setup for Tim's debut. It all feels hollow, Thanks! I've really missed it. This thread just requires a lot more concentration than the others, as there are so many creative teams working simultaneously, so much continuity already established, and a sloppy editor violating that continuity more often than he adheres to it. In short, it's a lot of mental work, and when you've had a series of long days at work, intense mental exercises don't always sound appealing  What gave you that impression? I have every Batman and Detective issue up to the Nu52 reboot. Eventually, I'd like to get to it all. How thoroughly I remain on top of the one shots, guest appearances, and spin-off titles, on the other hand...well, I'm less sure about all that. I'm both flattered and terrified that this thread means that much to you |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 18, 2014 20:04:23 GMT -5
For the sake of Chadwilliam's computer... Reviews for the previous installments of this three part story can be found here and here. Detective Comics #624  "Bitter Victory" writer: John Ostrander pencils: Flint Henry (p. 1-3, 7-8, 10-13, 17, 19), Mike McKrone (p. 4-6, 9, 14-16, 18, 20-22) inks: Flint Henry (p. 1-3, 7-8, 10-13, 17, 19), Jose Marzan (p. 4-6, 9, 14-16, 18, 20-22) colors: Adrienne Roy letters: Todd Klein asst. editor: Kelley Puckett editor: Dennis O'Neil creator: Bob Kane grade: B- There's a lot to like about this issue, and a lot to not like as well. I do like the synergy happening between the two comic books (the one we're reading, and the one everyone in the comic is reading). While the two begin functioning in parallel on a thematic level and ultimately even have their plot points line up, what works best here is the sheer balance of switching between the two. The inner story is downright captivating, but probably only so because we're constantly left wanting more of it every time we break away to the real-world DCU Batman story. Were the inner story released as its own Elseworlds story (even though Elseworlds wasn't an imprint yet), it probably would have grown tedious eventually. Similarly, there really isn't all that much happening in the real Batman story, but it offers a beautifully drawn (and inked) taste of the real Batman, his quiet moodiness offering stark contrast/relief to the extremes of the Image-style interior story. In fact, on some level, was this interior story an inspiration for Spawn? Beyond the basic concept of a hero empowered by Hell and the toll it takes on his psyche, there aren't too many similarities here, but this was the point when McFarlane was first thinking of going independent and creating his own characters. Surely, everything about Spawn's look was derivative (black Spidey costume + Doctor Strange + Ghost Rider) so why not the concept itself? Anyway, while I enjoyed the artistic balance found between the two clashing depictions of Batman, as well as the odd harmony that's struck as the two begin working in parallel, there are things that irked me about this story as well. For one thing, the first two parts of this story are clearly set up as a whodunnit, but the final explanation comes out of nowhere. This character was never introduced previously, and the fact that we get two pages of explanation as to who he was after his arrest only make this feel more sloppy. For another, no explanation is ever offered for the odd convergence of the two Batman stories as events keep lining up with one another, even as the newest issue is still being written. At the end, we get Alfred humorously commenting "The story of a man driven by a demon within, who takes extraordinary measures to combat a rising tide of evil and injustice. Whatever made me think it could have something in common with you?But this is a cop-out. Clearly, the parallels running between the two stories exceeded the possibility of random chance, yet we're just supposed to accept that art has an uncanny ability to imitate life, even when the writer has no knowledge of those real-life events? So, between the lack of explanation offered for the parallels and the random, out of nowhere solution to the mystery of who the killer was, this ending leave me feeling quite cheated. Still the artistic balance between the two stories was captivating, and had Ostrander done a little more to explore the issue of personal responsibility that's repeatedly addressed in this story but never satisfactorily utilized, that could have made this story something special as well. Some great elements to it, but an unsatisfactory whole. Minor Details: Since when did Todd Klein become the go-to Bat Office letterer? He's doing Batman and Detective at the same time. Of course, he's doing Sandman too. I guess folks figured he had a knack for dark, gloomy, and gothic. I would concur, though his talents are certainly underused here. What therapist would ever pronounce a sadistic murderer sane just because his ability to pay her fees had expired? The horrifying ethics of the action aside, it doesn't make any sense either. Plot synopsis in one sentence: Batman tracks down the psychologist who released the murderer (though we still don't know who he is), the next issue of the comic book currently being written begins to take on unmistakable similarities with what's happening with Batman, the author decides he will end the series after this issue is complete, Batman tracks down the murderer and stops him, the world moves on from their fear of Batman, and Alfred quips about how similar the comic book Batman and real life Batman really are. |
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Post by byronlomax on Nov 19, 2014 8:45:09 GMT -5
I really enjoy the Ostrander three-parter, though I agree it isn't perfect. He devotes a little too much time to the Batcomic, but more space could be given to the "real life" aspects of the story to make the conclusion more satisfying. Still a cool story to have around, though.
Do you plan on reviewing Ostrander's Gotham Nights miniseries? The first one, at least, is well worth the read.
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