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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 16:07:43 GMT -5
Steamboat vs Savage is better than Hogan vs Andre ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 18:56:27 GMT -5
Luger body-slammed Yokozuna.
Luger weighs 274 ... Yokozuna weighs 589.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 19:18:52 GMT -5
I was a Luger fan. It's so shocking to think how his career went downhill in the WWF.
I mean, you main event SummerSlam 1993, challenging Yokozuna for the world title; then, at SummerSlam 1994, you are wrestling Tatanka for "bragging rights" over who has sold out to Ted DiBiase; and then a year later, at SummerSlam 1995, you don't even wrestle on the card, instead performing a run in during the world title match between Diesel and King Mabel. It would seem to be the wrestling equivalent of a movie star getting top billing in the first movie, reduced to a supporting role in a sequel, and then having a brief cameo in the third film.
And it wasn't just SummerSlam. He wrestled a world title match at WrestleMania X, but was in an opening tag match at WrestleMania XI. And he didn't appear at the 1994 or 1995 King of the Ring events.
The Lex Express sure stalled in the WWF. It's so sad.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 1, 2020 19:36:31 GMT -5
Luger body-slammed Yokozuna. Luger weighs 274 ... Yokozuna weighs 589. "It was a hip toss, Monsoon!" All of that, plus the Lex Express and Vince still couldn't get Lex over as a babyface. He was just a natural heel and the fans knew it and just wouldn't buy him as an all-American babyface. Footage of various people who slammed Andre, before and after Wrestlemania III... Notice Andre could go up higher in his younger and more agile days.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 1, 2020 19:47:12 GMT -5
Vince was never able to really deal with guys he didn't create and that was Lex. He did everything but Lex be himself and it never worked. He comes back to WCW and is over instantly. Vince has a real blindspot for wrestlers who came to him fully formed. it wasn't that way in the beginning, as everyone came into the WWF fully formed: Hogan, Piper, Orndorff, Slaughter, Iron Sheik, Dynamite, etc...; but, he was never able to get over some of the guys who came in after, like Terry Taylor (though Taylor was his own worst enemy, there), Lex, Barry Windham, Tully Blanchard & Arn Anderson, and Vader, to name a few. All were established stars and major draws; but, Vince couldn't let them be themselves on his tv and they were never as big, in his environment, yet outclassed the talent he was pushing. Same with the Steiners and even the Road Warriors (though they had physical and substance problems by the time they came there). All shined in Crockett and WCW and in the territories.
Worst failure for Vince McMahon was not securing a deal for Bruiser Brody to come in and face Hogan. Brody would have been a tough negotiator and want more money than Vince would probably have put on the table; but, Brody had the size, was the best big man worker in the world and a massive draw everywhere and was self-made. His Japan deal meant he didn't have to put up with promoter shenanigans and didn't, though that was probably what got him killed, in Puerto Rico. Brody and Hogan would have been tremendous; plus, Hogan would have had to put on his working boots or Brody would eat him alive. Had it happened, Brody probably would have never been in Puerto Rico.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 1, 2020 20:42:13 GMT -5
NWA Powerrr Week 12 Recap of Storm and Aldis and the draw for the tv title tournament. Match is tonight. After the opening jaw jacking by the announcers, Tim Storm cuts a promo, wearing a Mama Storm t-shirt (Mama Storm is the most over relative since Mama Cornette) and out comes Aldis & Kamille. Aldis is getting a lot of catcalls from the audience and real heel heat, now. Recap of last week's Stevens and Question Mark backstage promo and Stevens is out for a submission exhibition match, against Sal Renauldo. Stevens wins with a COBRA CLUTCH!!!!!!!!! I haven't seen a Cobra Clutch used since both the Masked Superstar (Bill "Demolition Axe" Eadie) used it in Georgia (circa 1983) and a heel Sgt Slaughter was also using it in Mid-Atlantic (while teaming with Don Kernodle). I believe Slaughter used it for a bit, in the WWF. It's actually a legit choke, when you actually cinch it in (like the sleeper); but no one has used it in years. Nice to see it make a comeback. Well, okay, Ted DiBiase used it and Steve Austin used it, when he was the Ringmaster; but, nobody of note since then and nowhere near as prominently as Bill Eadie and Slaughter. Trevor Murdoch comes out and calls out Stevens for his actions and Stevens fluffs a retort, leading to "You can't talk" chants (since they can't do You F-ed up chants), which Stevens handled perfectly. He has a great back and forth with the crowd which makes the goofiness fun. Murdoch challenges him to a match and beats him with an INDIAN DEATHLOCK!!!!!!! That one has been dormant longer than the Cobra Clutch and they brought up Harley Race on commentary, who used to use it in matches against Flair. Of course, given their PC issues, they might need to rename it, if Murdoch is going to make regular use of it. I would have thought Murdoch would have used a Chicken Wing! Something called Powerrr Surge coming to the NWA website. No idea, unless it is something like the Ten Pounds of Gold thing. Pope (Elijah Burke) in a taped piece, sitting at ringside, talking to Homicide and Kingston. He refers to Homicide as a former World Champ. He did hold the Ring of Honor title; but, I would have not used 'world champion" in reference to another company's title that was defended in fewer places than your own. Call it a major title, company title, whatever, but, unless you are doing cross promotion for title vs title match, don't refer to it as a World Title, unless it is the WWF (maybe IWGP). Not sure what this accomplished, other than fill time, Nothing of note said. Promo for the Hard Times PPV, with Billy Corgan music. No Dusty promo, though.... Eli Drake out for another round of catch phrases and a promo that is going nowhere, until Colt Canan comes out to give it a direction, reminding Drake that Colt is a 2-time World champion and Drake isn't. Man, the previous NWA Regime's would put that title on just about anyone. Sets up a tag match with Drake & James Storm vs Colt & Ken Anderson, next week. Promo for something title NWA Girl Powerrr, at the website. They show a group photo of 16 women, including Melina, Allysin Kay, Ashley Vox, Marti Belle, Thunder Rosa, ODB, and others. May be a tournament or a women's card. One of the women is Anastasia Fletcher, who has drawn names from a bowl for the tv title tournament, but nothing more has been said about her. No info found online for her as a wrestler. Ringside taped piece, first with melina, Marti Belle and Thunder Rosa, talking about how Allysin Kay wasn't Marti's friend. Followed by Allysin, Ashley Vox and ODB talking the other side. Came across a bit too high school, if you ask me. She was never my friend! Why doesn't she like me anymore? Oh my god, get over yourself! Fer sure! Marti Belle (with melina) vs Tasha Steelz. Steelz wins with a sloppy diamond cutter. Good match. They actually started out working holds! I mean, armbars, headlocks, takeovers...the works! Belle is looking better but still has weird body language and does too many spots running at the corner. I like Steelz. She has some charisma and she executes well. She's probably the smallest of the women, including Thunder, who isn't very big, either. Melina chews Marti out in the ring. Taped piece where Anastasia Fletcher draws next names for tournament: Zicky Dice vs Caleb Conley. Set your VCRs. No idea why Dice was hired as he adds little but bad comedy that is 20 years out of date. Conley has good moves but is green. Hasn't cut a promo yet. Still no explanation who Fletcher is. Like AEW, the NWA is assuming people have followed wrestling on the internet and instantly know who people are or will google them. They are still better about introducing the talent; but, a little more from the announcers would go a long way. Cornette was better about pushing the importance of people. Tim Storm out for his match, but Aldis comes out in street clothes. He names his group (Strictly Business), while pointing at their winged logo on their jackets. Well, like most poultry, he is too chicken to get in the ring with Storm and sends in Royce Isaacs to do his dirty work. Isaac does the exaggerated eye bulge, gets a kiss from his hooker....girlfriend, May Valentine, and goes into the ring to take his a$$-whooping. Isaacs has good facials for the ring, but they are too over the top at the podium. Storm wins with the Perfect Storm (spinning sidewalk slam). Tom Latimer tries to interfere and pulls back. Aldis, who previously took a shot at Ricky Morton is backing away from the ring when out come Morton & Gibson, while the crowd chants "Rock N Roll!" Morton yells out, "Rule Number One, never turn your back on your opponent!" Their match is coming. Good show, though the taped ringside sit downs aren't really adding much. Girl Powerrr looks interesting; will it be a tournament, a women's showcase, a one-time event? We'll just have to see. Surge is less interesting as they tease nothing. Stevens continues to be entertaining as a deluded fool, Trevor Murdoch is an old school s@#$kicker, and the women looked better in the ring. Now, if they could get some more practice on the mic with an expert guiding them. Thunder is the only natural and I still don't see what was supposed to be so big deal about Melina, other than she worked for the WWE. TNA was filled with WWE exiles and it went under. got to give me more reason to care. I will say she was better in a manager's role than she was wrestling, last week. The PPV was also shot in the GPB studios and it looks like the next one is, too. Until they have a PPV in an arena setting, they won't be competing with anyone. Still, the product is exciting and the show is great. I would like to see them get an actual tv partner, so this could reach a wider audience. Tim Storm is a pure babyface and as real a reaction as they come. Fans love his story, Mama Storm, his classroom, and paying his dues. despite being the carryover from the old regime, he was given more credibility by Corgan, going into the match with Aldis, than he ever was under Tharp or anyone else. Aldis is getting more and more of a heel reaction. Drake is still playing Tweener and doing catchphrases.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 23:46:02 GMT -5
Luger has a problem ... and problem is he's a natural heel and it's quite difficult to make him a babyface and all that. That's why I had a hard time dealing with him and when he became Narcissist Lex Luger ... I was laughing my head off seeing this picture and his theme music too. Vince really wasted him and I just felt that they should had "worked this angle more" ... a beefcake heel angle is a gold mine in Professional Wrestling and according to a dear friend of mine girls were screaming in delight when he did the "mirror" gimmick and Vince just couldn't kept it going.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 5:49:32 GMT -5
Steamboat vs Savage is better than Hogan vs Andre ... I'll fight you (in the wrestling ring) over that. In all seriousness, I think a good wrestling card should be more than a one-match show. I mean, WrestleMania VI was a one-match show. It felt like the PPV was just counting down the clock until Hogan/Warrior. Understandable given the two top faces of the WWF were going toe-to-toe, but other matches felt like an afterthought, e.g. Superfly Jimmy Snuka vs Rick Rude. Yet there are other PPVs that didn't feel like one-match shows. Something like King of the Ring 1994 felt like it was selling lots of matches: the tournament, Piper/Lawler, Bret/Diesel, etc. Anyway, Hogan/Andre and Steamboat/Savage are different kinds of matches, both of which served a need for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 7:04:20 GMT -5
Steamboat vs Savage is better than Hogan vs Andre ... I'll fight you (in the wrestling ring) over that. In all seriousness, I think a good wrestling card should be more than a one-match show. I mean, WrestleMania VI was a one-match show. It felt like the PPV was just counting down the clock until Hogan/Warrior. Understandable given the two top faces of the WWF were going toe-to-toe, but other matches felt like an afterthought, e.g. Superfly Jimmy Snuka vs Rick Rude. Yet there are other PPVs that didn't feel like one-match shows. Something like King of the Ring 1994 felt like it was selling lots of matches: the tournament, Piper/Lawler, Bret/Diesel, etc. Anyway, Hogan/Andre and Steamboat/Savage are different kinds of matches, both of which served a need for me. I think Hogan/Giant was a bit too scripted and Savage/Steamboat is a bit more natural ... I liked them both equally well and I was torn apart by that. To be fair Hogan/Giant was epic and the other was more entertaining ... not that much but it was very good. It's hard to make a fair call on this and that why I went with Savage/Steamboat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 7:13:00 GMT -5
I did read that Savage liked to have scripted matches (Hogan called him a "details freak" in one interview). Someone, it *may* have been Ric Flair, stated that Steamboat was being driven mad with Savage's desire for a scripted match so they went natural. It works better.
I did also read, in a magazine, that when DDP started wrestling, he used to like a scripted match. I even read about how he'd faxed (or received a fax) about the moves in a match.
I think natural works better. Jake Roberts did a shoot interview ("Behind Closed Doors") where he said it was better just to know the finish - and call the rest in the ring. Wrestling isn't a movie. It depends on spontaneity. If your script requires the tenth headlock of the match, but fans are bored, why stick to it? Go for a high spot or something to get the crowd going again. Wrestling is neither fish nor fowl, I think it benefits from spontaneity.
I think Hogan/Andre is the better spectacle.
If I may use a movie comparison, sometimes you wanna watch something light such as 1988's The Great Outdoors. Nothing too deep or meaningful. Just fun. Other times you may want something deep and meaningful, e.g. 2001: A Space Odyssey. Both are fine. I'm kind of the same when I search for matches on the WWF Network. Sometimes I fancy a near-30-minute technical encounter, e.g. Arn Anderson vs Lord Steven Regal at SuperBrawl IV. Other times, I fancy a silly encounter, e.g. the Four Doinks VS Bam Bam Bigelow, Bastion Booger and The Head Shrinkers (Survivor Series 1993.
It's kind of an issue I had with Meltzer and Findlay Martin (editor of the now defunct Power Slam), at times there appears to be some semi-pretentious critical evaluation at play. If I was a food critic, I would not review a doughnut in the same way I'd review a steak and salad. You can't apply the same critical evaluation to a Bushwhackers match on free TV as you would to a 30-minute match featuring Dean Malenko.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 8:48:39 GMT -5
Good Points about Savage and I forgot about his needs to keep things organized and in details ... I read that in a wrestling magazine a couple of times and Hogan reminded us about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 9:02:21 GMT -5
Good Points about Savage and I forgot about his needs to keep things organized and in details ... I read that in a wrestling magazine a couple of times and Hogan reminded us about it. In DDP's case, and I am "mind reading" here, maybe coming to the game later, it could have been he wanted to have the best match possible. Maybe some guys prefer scripts. But I've read a few anecdotes from opponents of Savage who didn't really want to go down the scripted route. I'm no wrestler, but I think doing things spontaneously, and with the crowd in mind, is better. Maybe if the crowd gets bored and restless, then do something spontaneous like pull hair and back rake. But if your script requires you to do something unexciting, and you stick with it, it doesn't help the crowd. Perhaps a better comparison is stand-up comedy. I'm sure that quite a few have certain jokes and routines in mind, but they have to take into account the heckler or a bored crowd. Maybe wind a joke down if it, or similar jokes, aren't hitting the spot. Or change direction if a particular topic isn't exciting enough. Maybe you can keep within the formula but deviate where necessary. If I was a wrestler, I don't think I'd want to do a scripted match or promo.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 9:34:18 GMT -5
Good Points about Savage and I forgot about his needs to keep things organized and in details ... I read that in a wrestling magazine a couple of times and Hogan reminded us about it. If I was a wrestler, I don't think I'd want to do a scripted match or promo. All wrestlers has to learn to do scripted match and do it in perfection; that's why I like Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, Savage, Flair, Legion of Doom, and several others like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Piper, and Harley Race. You need to do an above average job to remember what to do and if you do it with near perfection you'll be noted for. I've been watching tons of Ric Flair's Promos from the 70's up to the 2000's when he was in TNA and this guy is a MASTER of MASTERS of doing the best promos around and if you can't do a decent promo your days as a professional wrestler is dated and be out before you know it. The Undertaker does a great short promo that ignite the crowd and the Rock is another good example too. If a wrestler has a good gimmick, good speaking voice, able to think on the fly, and read scripts well and stick to it and excite fans with promos and has good introduction to get the fans that know he or she really well and has charisma will go a long way in professional wrestling. The master of the craft is Ric Flair and doing it for 40 years is a tribute to his profession. Ric Flair's Nature Boy Robes ... makes him stand out in the CROWD and that's alone helped him immensely. My favorite robe ... Black and White!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 9:41:39 GMT -5
My favourite robe too!
I think, based on your post, that the keyword for me is BALANCE. Don't do everything on the fly. Have some plans. The wrestler, promoter or wrestling executive who does everything on the fly, especially with millions of dollars at stake, is being a fool. At the same time, don't be rigid. Don't be the wrestling equivalent of a Vulcan. Be flexible. Deviate from the script. Ad-lib during a promo.
I suppose a good comic example is Stan Lee. Did he have everything planned in the early years of Marvel? I seriously doubt it. A lot was probably done on the fly. But there was probably a "plan of sorts" somewhere.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 2, 2020 10:22:26 GMT -5
Traditionally, wrestling was improvisation; the booker gave you a finish and a time length and you went out to the ring and the heel or the veteran called the spots. You listened to the crowd's reaction and responded to it, speeding things up when they were quieting down, slowing them down once you had them going, building towards a conclusion. Promos were the same way. They'd tell them the date and the venue, emphasize the gimmick (if there was one) and turned them loose.
Now, promos are almost entirely scripted and sound the same, since they come from the same writing crew. Matches are laid out the same and even rehearsed. Spots are done to be spectacular, rather than because the crowd reaction called for something big. That is why there is such a sameness to the WWE and so little meaning to AEW matches and most indie shows.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, but, the improv style worked better when you were before the same audience again and again. When they have seen the show, they need something different. That is the essence of theater. They do the same play, again and again; but will try things differently, based on the house. A movie has one shot at it; same with a tv show. However, a weekly tv series can't just do the same episode again and again (though many of them do).
Flair and Steamboat were taught to call the match in the ring and did it better than just about anyone. Savage did not used totally scripted matches. He worked the same as everyone else in the territories; but, when he was on a big stage, with big PPV matches, he wanted to make sure everything worked together. He and Steamboat laid out their match, gave spots a letter designation, and memorized the whole sequence. It worked out well because you had two of the best workers in the business out there. Still, had you had someone like Bill Goldberg in the match, who was notorious for forgetting what was supposed to happen, you'd end up improvising anyway. That's what happened in his match with Stephen/William Regal. Goldberg got lost, Regal covered by taking him to the mat, repositioning them and guiding Goldberg back to the spot. he got yelled at for it and Goldberg threw him under a bus, rather than take the responsibility that he was F-ing up the match.
Steamboat could improvise anything and Savage could adjust well enough, had something gone differently. Savage was out to steal the show, which is why he went to such lengths, here. He didn't do that with every match; just the big ones.
Stan didn't plan much of anything at Marvel, other than get the books out on time. With Kirby and Ditko, they did their own plotting and Stan reacted to what they gave him, adding his own touches in dialogue and narration. With others, he gave them a more detailed plot and they put together the story, visually, returning it to Stan to dialogue. Stan worked this way because he was the sole editor and mostly the sole writer (his brother Larry was scripting some books and guys like Arnold rake were writing, towards the end of the decade). He didn't originate the plot metho, as many worked that way in the 40s. He didn't have time to write full scripts.
Alan Moore uses full scripts; but, allows room for the artist to improvise, adding their own touches. For a wrestling show, a little of both works fine; but, since it is a live performance, the emphasis needs to be on improvising to react to the crowd. You can have your planned spots; but, if the crowd isn't into it, you better be able to switch gears quickly or you're dead.
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