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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 12:53:06 GMT -5
Your final sentence is spot on (your whole post is, but I like how you ended it).
When I learnt the history of WCW, around the time The Death of WCW book was published, I came away thinking that WCW, for its existence, was a dying patient on life support - who had no chance no matter which emergency doctor you called.
It needn't have been that way. It could have succeeded. The NWO angle worked for me until the world and its wife joined the group. Russo's incongruous storylines didn't help. Giving creative control to so many wrestlers didn't work. And despite being a Hulkamaniac, that Fingerpoke of Doom match with Nash was insulting. At the time, I was mildly interested in seeing Hogan and Nash have a reasonable match. That was insulting.
I resented WCW for a long time. Around 2004 onwards, when WWE was boring me with the Diva Search (only WWE could make sexy women boring!), I thought about how the Diva Search may never have happened had WWE still had strong competition.
On that note, the Diva Search was pointless. Even when there was a winner, they only went ahead and hired a load of other women too. They didn't give them any personality. Some of them should never have been in a ring. Thankfully, 99% of the women in today's ring deserve to be there on merit.
But when WWE was boring me (post-2001), I thought to myself, 'There's no way Vince would be clogging up Raw with Diva Search crap if WCW were still around and providing strong competition.' Competition benefits everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 13:34:59 GMT -5
Having read some 1991-1993 issues of the Wrestling Observer recently, and having become interested in the behind-the-scenes info in the mid-90s, it did feel like WCW was always one step away from disaster. I believe it'd have died a death eventually, anyway. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Russo, along with many others, loaded the bullets that allowed Jamie Kellner to pull the plug on WCW programming. WCW was a problem from the onset, because of why it existed. Backtrack a bit. In the 1970s, the Georgia territory was promoted by wrestler Ray Gunkel. Gunkel died, in the ring, of a heart attack. His wife, Ann, inherited his shares in the company. He had other partners and they tried to take over. An fought them and found herself outvoted. She left the company and took almost the entire roster with her and started All-South Wrestling, with prime tv. That tv was on a station owned by Ted Turner, an old friend of Ann's. The war got nasty, as the NWA, as it usually did when there was a threat, flooded the local NWA promotion with talent, to drive out the rival. Ann had the tv; but found her promotion shut out of buildings. She filed lawsuits. Jim Barnett, who promoted wrestling successfully in the Midwest (he originated studio wrestling,for tv) and Australia. He ran the Georgia promotion, with Bill Watts as his booker, and top talent from all over the NWA. Ann finally gave up; but, by the end, both promotions had shows on Turner's station. The surviving promotion continued to run as Georgia Championship Wrestling, on Turner's station. Turner then decided to get into the cable business and his station became Superstation WTBS, with Georgia Championship Wrestling on Saturday evenings, at 6:05. the :05 part was to catch people who might be channel surfing. The show ran for two hours, for many years, with repeats of matches and angles on Sunday. Gordon Solie, who was the Championship Wrestling from Florida announcer, also became the georgia announcer (Alabama, too, at one point). The show was a huge ratings draw for Turner, his top show. Meanwhile, the exposure of georgia Championship Wrestling nationally, on cable, made it a prime showcase for the NWA. Stars would do short tours through Georgia for tv exposure and guys like Dusty Rhodes and Jack brisco would come in for a few weeks, before heading back home. brisco even bought into the territory. It was the premiere nationally broadcast wrestling show. By contrast, the WWF didn't get a regular show on the USA network until 1983, with All-American Wrestling. prior to that, they just broadcast the previous Madison Square Garden card on the USA Network, once a month, on Monday night (which is where I first saw Jimmy Snuka, Bob Backlund, Don Muraco and Tiger Mask). Im 1982, the tv show was renamed World Championship Wrestling, the name Barnett had used in Australia. I have a friend that knew Ray and his wife Ann did everything to keep it running and he was very sad when Ann forced out and that upset him a lot that time Ann was hustled out and couldn't do a thing about it. He blamed Jim for ruining her business of which he felt unjustified and GCW grew from there and later became WCW. Ann tried to keep it territorial and with no luck whatsoever. Ann was heartbroken when her promotions were shut out and filed lawsuits that did not do here any good at all. He even gave money to her to help her win and after she left the business altogether ... my friend stopped watching Wrestling and he doesn't know any wrestlers today including Hogan, Sting, Macho Man, and etc. He loved Ann so much.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 13:39:20 GMT -5
I resented WCW for a long time. Around 2004 onwards, when WWE was boring me with the Diva Search (only WWE could make sexy women boring!), I thought about how the Diva Search may never have happened had WWE still had strong competition. On that note, the Diva Search was pointless. Even when there was a winner, they only went ahead and hired a load of other women too. They didn't give them any personality. Some of them should never have been in a ring. Thankfully, 99% of the women in today's ring deserve to be there on merit. But when WWE was boring me (post-2001), I thought to myself, 'There's no way Vince would be clogging up Raw with Diva Search crap if WCW were still around and providing strong competition.' Competition benefits everyone. The Diva Search killed WWE ... and that's the stupidest thing that Vince McMahon done.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 13:47:21 GMT -5
It did. I mean, how on Earth does anyone make beautiful women boring?
I wanted wrestling. Those Diva Search segments were interminable. So why did I watch them? I didn't. I had Raw on in the background and did some drawing or painting. As soon as that garbage was over, I could return to watching WRESTLING.
It was a pointless endeavour. They had talented wrestlers on the books already such as Mickie James. They should have been developing the personalities and wrestling talents of the women under contract, not adding what seemed like a dozen or so new women. "And the winner of the Diva Search is...well, this person. But we'll be employing 7-8 of the women who didn't make it anyway."
If WCW had still been around, and kicking WWE's ass, there's no way they'd had those segments. This is what a lack of competition does.
Women are beautiful. And each woman is an individual. I don't mean to sound like a politician, but it's true. Time and a place for everything. But demeaning contests and Diva Searches taking up WWE airtime really frustrated me at the time. Having dinner with a beautiful woman in a restaurant, and talking about the universe and everything, is absolutely great. But when you watch wrestling, whether male or female, you want to see wrestling or angles - not silly contests and women soon after being thrown into the rings with little-to-no talent/training.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 14:49:05 GMT -5
At one time these Diva Searches took nearly 40 minutes of a single RAW (3 hours) show and that alone bothers me.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 21, 2019 17:57:07 GMT -5
Vince McMahon has always had an inferiority complex, which fueled his actions. His father was not present until late in his life, as Vince Jr grew up in North carolina, with his mother, and various male figures; but did not meet Vince Sr until he was 12. He graduated from East Carolina Univ, with a degree in business, in 1968; but, didn't start working for his father until the following year, as a ring announcer. Heis role grew to play by play commentary, promoting small sections of the territory (Maine) and other ventures, most of which failed (The Ali-Inoki fight, the Evele Knievel Snake River Canyon Jump, a few rock concerts). He eventually pruchased his father's interest in the company; but, had to pay over time and would lose the company if he missed a payment. He spent his time trying to show up his father as a better promoter; but, always hated that he was in the wrestling business. That's why he used the term "sports entertainment." he wanted to make it seem more glamorous and on par with other entertainment. he surrounded himself with non-wrestling people, despite his best promotional success being when he had god wrestling advisors, like Pat Patterson, JJ Dillon, Jim Barnett, Jim Cornette, jerry Jarrett, etc....
As those guys became more marginalized, guys like producer Kevin Dunn became more powerful. Dunn had minor connections in entertainment and was there because his father had helped save tapes of the WWWF. he was never a big deal in the entertainment field and tries to overcompensate by pushing the WWF to be like traditional television, referring to the road agents as producers, using tv writers, and caring more about the presentation of the show than the content. He has a lot of sway over Vince and Stephanie, who heads up the writers.
The fly in the ointment has been Paul Levesque, aka HHH, surprisingly. He has been instrumental in building a future for the company and re-establishing traditional wrestling concepts. NXT is his baby and he developed the Performance center, where they train new talent. previously, they used a farm system of developmental promotions, like Ohio Valley Wrestling, run by Danny Davis and Jim Cornette. However, the developmental promoters would often find themselves at odds with the WWF,, as they were running their own business and the WWF would pull away guys from them, with little or no notice, which would affect their own tv and shows. NXT brought it under their direct control, with wrestlers trained the way they want them, to deliver the scripted promos and act the mindless skits. Only problem is, they inhibit the natural and unique talents of the performers and they end up all looking and sounding the same. WCW's Power Plant had the same problem. Their graduates were all muscle heads with similar looks, now personality, and little technical skill, vs the graduates of OVW, who included guys like John cena, Randy Orton, brock lesnar, nick Dinsmore, Dave Bautista, Glen Jacobs (in Smokey Mountain), and many more. They had old school trainers like Danny Davis (a second generation who was one half of the nightmares tag-team and the Galaxians, one of Cornette's first tag-teams), Cornette, and Hustler Rip Rogers (who started with the WWA and the Poffos and then travelled all over, working for everyone but Vince (directly). They taught guys psychology and "working," not just fitness and working for the hard camera. They taught them to be the best wrestlers they could be, not just another guy on the tv format.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 18:06:11 GMT -5
So that's why Kevin Dunn has a lifetime job? Some tapes were saved.
Wow. Who knew? I was always curious. I always expected him to be let go and wished well with "future endeavours". I mean, I expected him to be sacked before the late Jack Tunney. At least now I know why he has a job for life.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 7:04:43 GMT -5
Does anybody know why Survivor Series '92 scrapped the elimination matches in favour of being just like any other PPV? (I know they had one elimination match, Natural Disasters & Nasty Boys VS Money Inc. & Beverly Brothers).
At the time I was disappointed. I sort of got that they wanted a WWF Title defence and the tag team match with Savage/Perfect VS Flair/Ramon, but what reason was there to scrap the elimination matches and create a card that was indistinguishable from, say, SummerSlam?
What I always liked about the elimination matches, other than their uniqueness, was that they gave almost every wrestler on the card a chance to shine. Feuds were started in those matches. Feuds ended. Angles began, e.g. the dissension between the Rockers at Survivor Series '91. Plus, you were guaranteed excitement, I felt. On a team captained by, say, Hulk Hogan, you may not have cared about Hogan, but you may have cared about Jake Roberts or Big Boss Man.
I had zero interest in Survivor Series '92 at the time. Sure, some matches were good. I understood they had to resolve certain feuds, e.g. Big Boss Man/Nailz, Undertaker/Kamala, etc. But why scrap the elimination format? I feel they could have combined some of those feuds to create elimination matches. So, have Big Boss Man, Undertaker & High Energy take on Nailz, Kamala & The Head Shrinkers.
On a related note, I know Mr. Perfect had an "emergency babyface turn" due to Ultimate Warrior leaving. But suppose Mr. Perfect had not been fit to wrestle. Who would have been Savage's partner? I doubt Bret Hart because he had a title defence. Would they have paid Hulk Hogan big bucks to return and reform The Mega Powers for one night? Had Perfect not been available, what would they have done?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 9:35:50 GMT -5
For what I understand, that Vince had a terrible time putting this together and it was hastily put together and many fans were very angry about the card that WWE put together. Yokozuna vs Virgil was a total farce took 3 and half minutes long. Mr. Perfect and Randy Savage defeated Razor Ramon and Ric Flair by disqualification and that match should never, ever taken place and Mr. Perfect pretty much a jerk in this match and that's why both Razor Ramon and Ric Flair made it a total mockery of the event.
Their were one traditional survivor series match and that was a total joke in my mind and many fans demanded that WWE should refund it and that PPV was a dismal one and knowing that Vince and Triple H had some personal issue to work out and that causes more problems too and those were personal. I hated that PPV and so did many of my wrestling fans that I know of at the time that this event took place on November 25, 1992.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 10:27:47 GMT -5
The PPV was hyped on the premise of Warrior teaming with Savage. Warrior had chased Razor Ramon off a few times. And saved Savage. Warrior had battled Flair more than once.
Now, while the "card subject to change" rule is a sound one (anything can happen), having a substitution didn't achieve much. I'm not saying this out of bias, but maybe if Hulk Hogan had returned, they could have built it as a "Mega Powers Reunite" semi-main event. Hogan VS Ramon or Flair back then would have worked.
But nothing else did. Perfect's "emergency turn" felt contrived, bless him. They could have slotted Bret Hart in, but that would have downgraded the importance of the WWF Championship. And made little sense, given Bret had no personal issues with either Ramon or Flair at the time (aside from taking Flair's belt).
Macho Man and Mr. Perfect was an odd combination. I know they had to do something, but, as stated, Warrior and Savage were hyped for that event. They'd teamed against the likes of Money Inc. and Nasty Boys. It's not necessarily WWF's fault Warrior had to leave, but it's awkward. I mean, imagine if Robert Downey Jr. had quit the Avengers franchise prior to Infinity Wars - and Marvel Studios had had to awkwardly bring in someone else to fill the slot. It would have felt contrived. I wanted to see Warrior/Savage VS Flair/Ramon. Hogan/Savage would have been acceptable if given enough hype/time. At a push, Bret/Savage would have worked. But nothing else did, certainly not a contrived "emergency turn" by Perfect.
That PPV was horrible. The Bret/Shawn main event was quality, although I feel they had better matches on TV, circa 1992-1993. It was one of the few PPVs I chose not to own on videotape back in the day. Even the Big Boss Man/Nailz grudge match felt pedestrian and anti-climatic.
So I really think they should have stuck with elimination matches. Undertaker captaining a team of Big Boss Man and High Energy against Nailz, Kamala and Head Shrinkers would have had some novelty value - and probably been more entertaining. Yokozuna could have debuted as part of a team, perhaps we could have had Bret Hart, Crush, Virgil & Tatanka VS Shawn Michaels, Yokozuna, Repo Man and Rick Martel. Would that have been a match for the ages? Of course not! But Yokozuna could have eliminated Virgin and Crush or something; and then, to protect his mystique/monster status, been disqualified early on. The ending could have featured Bret winning for his team, but with Yokozuna not being pinned, and only being disqualified, his unstoppable aura would have been protected.
Feel free to disagree with my "fantasy booking" ideas, I don't claim to be right or have the answers. Just how I'd have done it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 10:52:40 GMT -5
Now, while the "card subject to change" rule is a sound one (anything can happen), having a substitution didn't achieve much. I'm not saying this out of bias, but maybe if Hulk Hogan had returned, they could have built it as a "Mega Powers Reunite" semi-main event. Hogan VS Ramon or Flair back then would have worked. So I really think they should have stuck with elimination matches. Undertaker captaining a team of Big Boss Man and High Energy against Nailz, Kamala and Head Shrinkers would have had some novelty value - and probably been more entertaining. Yokozuna could have debuted as part of a team, perhaps we could have had Bret Hart, Crush, Virgil & Tatanka VS Shawn Michaels, Yokozuna, Repo Man and Rick Martel. Would that have been a match for the ages? Of course not! But Yokozuna could have eliminated Virgin and Crush or something; and then, to protect his mystique/monster status, been disqualified early on. The ending could have featured Bret winning for his team, but with Yokozuna not being pinned, and only being disqualified, his unstoppable aura would have been protected. I think your idea of Hogan vs Razor Match would be an awesome semi-main event #1 ... followed by Savage vs Flair would be the 2nd semi-main event would had fueled that rivalry head on. I would done that in a heartbeat! In your second paragraph ... starting with "So I really think they ..." would have some difficulty putting together and the problem with WWF/WWE back in 1991 to 1992 is that both Vince and Triple H had some difficulty getting this PPV in order and it was nightmare for them to create a good Survivor Series PPV. Your idea of Bret Hart with those three wrestlers and Shawn Michaels would been worked; the problem with that match is Yokozuna to me he is a big joke at the time and never, really embraced him as a wrestler at all. I would like to see Giant Gonzales replacing Crush and have these two battled it out and eventually both gets tossed out early on with Bret Hart, Virgil, Tatanka taking on Shawn, Repo Man, and Rick Martel. Virgil pinned Repo Man, Rick Martel pinned Virgil, then Tatanka and Rick Martel both disqualified, and that would had both Bret Hart and Shawn Michael battling alone together ... and with Marty Jannetty coming in hit Michael in the head without the Referee seeing it and Bret applied his Sharpshooter for the win. That would be so cool.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 13:20:40 GMT -5
Hi, was you thinking of someone other than Triple H when discussing Vince/Triple H in 1991/92? If I have my history right, Triple H didn't enter WWF until 1995 - and only gained backstage influence several years later.
Did someone else backstage have that acronym (in the same way that Don Muraco was "The Rock" long before Dwayne Johnson?).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 13:22:50 GMT -5
Thanks for endorsing my booking ideas - and expanding on them. I like the Marty Jannetty moment. I think Survivor Series '92 could have been far more exciting.
I know there were fewer PPVs back then, but even with four a year (until KOTR was added in '93), they needed their own flavour. WrestleMania and SummerSlam were the "normal PPVs", Royal Rumble and Survivor Series had unique selling points. To scrap an elimination format made no sense to me. Also, at the time, I was worried they might have scrapped it for good, so I was relieved when the format returned in 1993 (but, and it's another story, irked when they didn't have the format in 1998).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 14:50:08 GMT -5
Hi, was you thinking of someone other than Triple H when discussing Vince/Triple H in 1991/92? If I have my history right, Triple H didn't enter WWF until 1995 - and only gained backstage influence several years later. I just wanted to clear this up ... I was reading your post offline and it was Vince having issues with Bret Hart and the problems of with Mr. Perfect and a couple of mid-card wrestlers that he tried to promote them into "stars" and he really favored Shawn Michaels over Bret Hart and that led to the Montreal Screwjob and all that. Many stars of WWE at that time did not really accept Ric Flair and I just don't know half the story and that alone made the Macho Man really angry when Mr. Perfect and Ric Flair messing with Miss Elizabeth storyline. I need to do some thinking and ask a friend of mine who knows WWF/WWE back then. Stay tuned.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 14:56:09 GMT -5
Thanks!
I have been browsing some back issues of the Wrestling Observer recently. So hectic behind the scenes, eh?
Bret Hart was a trooper, it seemed. I mean, he seemed to have a lot of patience. Although I enjoyed the magic of Hulkamania at the time, I can see why he'd have not been pleased with the direction of his career at times.
In a way, it's a shame. Bret VS Hogan at SummerSlam 1993 would have been an awesome main event!
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