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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 11:04:00 GMT -5
I hear you guys about psychology.. and that is a bit of a lost art. I think it's a reasonable trade off for ten minutes of rest holds and 1 minute of action though. You're not wrong that the ending of the match often comes out of nowhere, but I like that, it makes things more exciting. I guess to each their own. I think all kinds of things work. There’s no magic formula. I agree with you, by the way. An ending coming out of nowhere can be great fun. For me, variety is the key. I think it’s easy for some pretentious wrestling journalists to claim psychology is a lost art, but I wouldn’t say Roman Reigns is lacking psychology. It’s easy for the ‘wrestling purist journalists’ to whine about lack of technical acumen, but although he has a lot to learn no doubt, I think Omos is showing considerable ring presence and doing great things - but that probably wouldn’t matter to someone writing five-star ratings for a newsletter.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 25, 2021 11:37:26 GMT -5
I can't say I've watched any WWE for a while, the last couple times I tried I didn't last long, between the talent's age and link of spots and the dead crowds I just couldn't get into it... guess I'm just an indy guy
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 25, 2021 13:29:17 GMT -5
"Wins out of nowhere" are fine, when they are logical...a surprise small package with a tight cradle, a sunset flip or rolling reverse cradle, a quick DDT. Those finishes could seem to come out of nowhere but they were usually done for specific reasons. A lot of guys these days have no logical flow to what they are doing, throughout the match and then just hit finishers repeatedly, without effect, until they get a three count. You get a ton of matches that are, "I do my spots, you do yours, we hit a bunch of flashy moves for false finishes and then the actual finish." There isn't an ebb and flow, one dominating and the other making a comeback and reversing the momentum. Even in Japan, there was a storytelling logic to things.
It used to be that a lot of title wins came with "finishes out of nowhere." Kerry Von Erich won the NWA World title, from Ric Flair, with a backslide. Flair regained the title in Japan, by reversing a rolling reverse cradle. Kerry is on the ring apron and Flair tries to suplex him in, but Kerry twists over and lands behind Ric, shoves him into the ropes for the rolling reverse cradle. While he tries to sit back on the legs, Flair rolls through and Kerry ends on his back and Flair sits down on Kerry's legs pinning him to regain the title.
Leaping Lanny Poffo won the ICW tv title from the Great Tio with a rolling reverse, at the start of the match. The bell rings and Tio charges Lanny, in his corner and Lanny ducks under and follows Tio into the corner, smashing him into it and then rolling him back into the cradle and a three-count. The studio audience (which were tiny, at their tapings) went nuts and it looked spectacular on tv. He then gets some tv wins in quick fashion and has a title vs title match against Southeastern Champion Ronnie Garvin. Lanny wins, while Garvin turns heel. That was to set up Garvin vs Randy, with Garvin the heel and Randy a sort of babyface (he was more of a tweener, in late ICW, depending on his opponent).
It was rare that someone won the title with the signature finish. It gave the booker a better ending for a rematch if it was a surprise win, as the heel could claim it was a fluke and they would have a rematch, or the babyface could indicate some shenanigans, like holding the tights or ropes. But, a surprise finish for a match that isn't building to anything or settling a feud or for a title serves no purpose. You see a lot of indie matches that do that because they have no better idea of how to end the match because it has no story; it's just a random pairing of wrestlers for their monthly show (or weekly).
Something like Sean Waltman, as the Kid, getting a fast, out-of-nowhere pin on Razor Ramon is the right way to build an upstart underdog and set up a rematch. Kid gets the fluke win, after jobbing (but being competitive), then Razor demands a rematch and loses again! That creates a feud, then a friendship. The surprise has a meaning. Similar things had been done with Barry Horowitz, in Florida, when he wrestled as Jack Hart. Barry was a terrific worker; but, size was always against him. On Florida tv, He did jobs, but was competitive and crowds responded to him. So, they did a losing streak gimmick, which built to his first win and crowds went nuts for it. Then, they had him fall under the influence of Percy Pringle (future Paul bearer, William Moody) and he turns heel and becomes part of the Pringle Dynasty, along with Rick Rude and wins the Florida title. I believe the WWF also did a losing streak with him, ending in a win, with similar results.
My favorite fluke win was the tv win by the Mulkey Brothers, over the Gladiators, the alleged California Tag-Team Champions, who were there for the Crockett Cup tournament. The MUlkey's get a fluke win and the Gladiators' spot in the tournament. It was done as a sort of reward for the ass-whippings they took on tv every week.
The Gladiators were actually fellow jobbers George South and Gary Royal, under the masks, since they were known to tv audiences. South was actually one of the best wrestlers Crockett had; but, he just didn't have the star factor. Royal had been Crockett's junior heavyweight champion, in a feud with Denny Brown and was also one of the Convertible Blonds, in ICW, with Hustler Rip Rogers and Rick Starr. Crockett had other undercard guys who did double duty under masks. Joel Deaton also worked as Thunderfoot, then in a tag team of Thunderfoot I & II. Gene Anderson's son, Brad, worked under a mask on WCW tv, as Zan Panzer and Agent Steele, as well as under his own name.
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Post by commond on Dec 25, 2021 17:32:18 GMT -5
I think you’d enjoy Jake Roberts’ “Behind Closed Doors” interview, where he discusses ring psychology. Not saying you’d learn anything new, but he does convey wrestling psychology well. As you say, if something doesn’t work the first time, why would it work the 9th time? I have long said that wrestling should show a psychology akin to a bar fight, in a certain sense. If a 7 foot guy picks a fight with me in a bar, I’ll punch his face. Twice. If he has a rock-hard jaw, and that has no effect, well I’m changing tactics quickly! If a punch to the guy doesn’t work, maybe I’ll kick his knees. Or die trying. I want to see the same in wrestling. I’ve actually enjoyed the psychology WWE guys have used against the giant Omos. Bobby Lashley took on Omos in a tag match. When the test of strength wasn’t working, he began pounding on Omos, pushing him into a corner. Then he attempted a suplex - which failed. But he at least tried different things, and it came across as believable. Jake was a great promo, but he rarely produced anything of worth in the ring outside of his early work in the territories.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 25, 2021 20:45:37 GMT -5
I think you’d enjoy Jake Roberts’ “Behind Closed Doors” interview, where he discusses ring psychology. Not saying you’d learn anything new, but he does convey wrestling psychology well. As you say, if something doesn’t work the first time, why would it work the 9th time? I have long said that wrestling should show a psychology akin to a bar fight, in a certain sense. If a 7 foot guy picks a fight with me in a bar, I’ll punch his face. Twice. If he has a rock-hard jaw, and that has no effect, well I’m changing tactics quickly! If a punch to the guy doesn’t work, maybe I’ll kick his knees. Or die trying. I want to see the same in wrestling. I’ve actually enjoyed the psychology WWE guys have used against the giant Omos. Bobby Lashley took on Omos in a tag match. When the test of strength wasn’t working, he began pounding on Omos, pushing him into a corner. Then he attempted a suplex - which failed. But he at least tried different things, and it came across as believable. Jake was a great promo, but he rarely produced anything of worth in the ring outside of his early work in the territories. Yeah, Jakes best matches were in Florida, Georgia and Mid-South, with guys who knew how to book him and with guys who knew how to work with him. He was actually booking, in Georgia, for a bit, before Black Saturday.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 25, 2021 21:39:32 GMT -5
This was a couple of days ago; but, WWF 80s star, Corporal Kirchner has passed away. Mike Kirchner was born MichaeL Penzel and legit served in the 82nd Airborne, though never in combat (in between Vietnam and Grenada). he broke into wrestling thanks to Hulk Hogan, who helped get him inot Verne Gagne's training camp. He worked in Florida, as RT Reynolds and then was brought into the WWF, in 1985, as a replacement for Sgt Slaughter, doing a sort of cross between Rambo and Slaughter as the patriotic soldier vs the foreign heel. He stuck around until 1987, with his biggest match being a "capture the flag" bout against Nikolai Volkoff, at Wrestlemania II. He went to Stampede, in Calgary, and was working as a babyface; but, got into a bar brawl and split the territory, after making bail. He would turn up in Japan, working for New Japan and the UWF, as Cpl Kirchner, then under a mask, as Leatherface (from The Texas Chainsaw Massacre), in W*ING and FMW. A tendency towards drug use and brawls got him into further legal trouble. He also wrestled as Super Leather, after turning over the Leatherface gimmick to Rick Patterson. In 2006, the WWE mistakenly announced his death and Greg Oliver, of Slam Wrestling, helped locate him and correct the error, leading to Kirchner appearing at some shows and fanfests. He had been long out of wrestling and working as a truck driver, when the news of his death was misreported. Cause of death was an apparent heart attack. I wasn't a fan; but, he wasn't a bad wrestler. the gimmick was just too derivative to get behind, when the WWF trotted him out, much like Outback Jack. I saw a bit of the Leatherface gimmick, in FMW, on a tape. Sgt Slaughter wasn't going to do this promo, though....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 8:39:29 GMT -5
I quite liked Jake Roberts’ WWF work. He was solid, and I enjoyed his feuds with Rick Rude, Rick Martel, Earthquake, etc.
I did like Corporal Kirchner, he worked for the time. I do remember that flag match, although I thought it took place on SNME rather than WM II (forgive me if I’m wrong). I remember that fake account of his death, but when I read the news about this one, I knew it was real.
RIP.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2021 15:14:16 GMT -5
Re: the likes of AEW signing former WWE wrestlers.
Anti-social media is the place where nuance goes to die, hence why forums are far superior. What about promotions signing former talents?
Okay, it probably wouldn’t be a good look for a promotion to hire LOADS of wrestlers who’ve been let go from the likes of WWE. Perception can be everything, and at times, I thought TNA was coming across as “WCW Mark II, with all the talent that WWE didn’t want then or now”.
But, realistically, I think it can also be good. Back in the days when I had been watching wrestling for a short time, I was pleased to see some free agents get snapped up. When Rick Rude showed his face on WCW, I was pleased - and didn’t he have a stellar run that, in my opinion, eclipsed his WWF work? When Kerry Von Erich became a free agent, I was pleased to see him show up in the WWF and win the Intercontinental Championship. Sure, I know wrestling can be petty and has probably snapped wrestlers up for that reason - or simply because they wanted what another promotion once had, and thought they could recapture lightning in a bottle. Works both ways. I mean, to my frustration, the WWF never capitalised on the momentum and success that Vader had shown around the world. WCW also misused Bret Hart.
It’s never anything other than nuanced. Rick Rude could leave the WWF and eclipse that portion of his career with magnificent WWF performances while Vader didn’t even get a world title run in WWF, which I think would have been great. Some are treated well, others aren’t.
I digress, though. I think some promotions would be silly not to *consider* hiring free agents. If Brock Lesnar became a free agent tomorrow, or Roman Reigns, if I was at AEW, I’d be faxing them an offer within seconds of the expiration of the 90-day clause. And if Hangman Page from AEW became free, I’d do the same if I was working for WWE.
That would apply to real life, too. I’m sure if a top lawyer left a very successful law firm (for personal reasons or due to differences), I could imagine a rival law firm telephoning him and saying, “Name your price!” I’m sure I read of a police chief once (might have been NYC) who was getting offers to be the chief in other cities/states.
I’m sure there were WWF fans pleased that ex-AWA wrestlers showed up there. I think it’s good, and I don’t get this “lacking in nuance” nonsense on social media that states EVERY hiring of a talent from another promotion is bad. Why does nuance die on anti-social media? As my above examples hopefully show, there are two sides. I doubt anyone would say that Vader had anything other than slight success in the WWF, but I’m sure a lot of people might say Rick Rude’s WCW career was more successful, on a personal level for him, than his WWF run, even though WWF was more profitable and successful at times.
What do you think?
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Post by Batflunkie on Dec 27, 2021 22:31:35 GMT -5
I quite liked Jake Roberts’ WWF work. He was solid, and I enjoyed his feuds with Rick Rude, Rick Martel, Earthquake, etc. I think that Jake was a better talker than he was a worker
Even with repeat watchings of the excellent "Pick Your Poison", I can't really recall any of his matches except the one where he first executed his patented DDT
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 27, 2021 23:32:50 GMT -5
Re: the likes of AEW signing former WWE wrestlers. Anti-social media is the place where nuance goes to die, hence why forums are far superior. What about promotions signing former talents? Okay, it probably wouldn’t be a good look for a promotion to hire LOADS of wrestlers who’ve been let go from the likes of WWE. Perception can be everything, and at times, I thought TNA was coming across as “WCW Mark II, with all the talent that WWE didn’t want then or now”. But, realistically, I think it can also be good. Back in the days when I had been watching wrestling for a short time, I was pleased to see some free agents get snapped up. When Rick Rude showed his face on WCW, I was pleased - and didn’t he have a stellar run that, in my opinion, eclipsed his WWF work? When Kerry Von Erich became a free agent, I was pleased to see him show up in the WWF and win the Intercontinental Championship. Sure, I know wrestling can be petty and has probably snapped wrestlers up for that reason - or simply because they wanted what another promotion once had, and thought they could recapture lightning in a bottle. Works both ways. I mean, to my frustration, the WWF never capitalised on the momentum and success that Vader had shown around the world. WCW also misused Bret Hart. It’s never anything other than nuanced. Rick Rude could leave the WWF and eclipse that portion of his career with magnificent WWF performances while Vader didn’t even get a world title run in WWF, which I think would have been great. Some are treated well, others aren’t. I digress, though. I think some promotions would be silly not to *consider* hiring free agents. If Brock Lesnar became a free agent tomorrow, or Roman Reigns, if I was at AEW, I’d be faxing them an offer within seconds of the expiration of the 90-day clause. And if Hangman Page from AEW became free, I’d do the same if I was working for WWE. That would apply to real life, too. I’m sure if a top lawyer left a very successful law firm (for personal reasons or due to differences), I could imagine a rival law firm telephoning him and saying, “Name your price!” I’m sure I read of a police chief once (might have been NYC) who was getting offers to be the chief in other cities/states. I’m sure there were WWF fans pleased that ex-AWA wrestlers showed up there. I think it’s good, and I don’t get this “lacking in nuance” nonsense on social media that states EVERY hiring of a talent from another promotion is bad. Why does nuance die on anti-social media? As my above examples hopefully show, there are two sides. I doubt anyone would say that Vader had anything other than slight success in the WWF, but I’m sure a lot of people might say Rick Rude’s WCW career was more successful, on a personal level for him, than his WWF run, even though WWF was more profitable and successful at times. What do you think? It has to be the right people. Not everyone deserves a place in the company and a large roster means a lot of people lost in the shuffle. AEW has been pretty top heavy and there have some pretty questionable contracts, that seemed to be given, due to friendships with the Powers That Be. That being said, when you have proven talent, at a national level, you are a fool not to snap them up, for a reasonable price. WCW threw money at everyone who came from the WWF and ended up with guys like Brutus Beefcake and Virgil getting paid way more than they were worth. CM Punk and Brian Danielson were no-brainers. They were stars in the WWE, were indie darlings in their earlier careers and now have the seasoning that they lacked when they were in places like Ring of Honor. Better a place for them than some of the guys who have only worked indies. Guys like Big Show and Mark Henry are a bit more questionable, depending on how they are used. Realistically, if their are going to wrestle, then they should be there to help mentor young guys and build them into stars. If they are just there to be commentators, then pay them accordingly. If they are doing other functions, then factor that into the pay scale. TNA threw money at anybody form WCW and bled money and didn't draw a fly with a good portion of them. ROH, under Cary Silken, was over-saturated with wrestlers and, as Cornette says, had to have a "Come to Jesus" meeting that they couldn't afford to keep everyone and there would be cuts. AEW would benefit from dropping some of the people they've had around who are mostly relegated to their non-major shows. The number of people who were overlooked in the WWE and will be stars elsewhere is pretty small and was even in WCW. The better opportunities are with talent who had earned their spots and could consistently give great performances and, especially, have a level of star power. What will boost AEW is creating the next generation of stars and get the casual viewer to latch onto them. However, most wrestlers don't really blossom until they've been at it, for a decade, give or take a couple of years. Obviously, there are notable exceptions; but, rookies want to do the flashy stuff and it takes time to pick up the psychology and the timing to know when to be spectacular and when to hold back and make the crowd want more. In regards some of you earlier examples, I was rather sad to see Kerry in the WWF, because it meant World Class was dead. World Class was a nova hot promotion, for several years, then drugs, booze, injuries and just plain burn out killed it off. The Von Erich boys all had degrees of substance problems and Kerry was the saddest, because he was a likeable guy that had the perfect babyface look for wrestling. Women LOVED him and guys could appreciate his athleticism. When he was straight, he was a damn good worked and a favorite opponent of guys like Flair. The accident destroyed a portion of his body and the substances destroyed a lot of his brain; but, by all accounts he was a sweetheart and his athletic ability was such that he learned how to "work" with his prosthetic, while hiding the fact that he had one. The ironic thing was that Vince came courting the Von Erichs, in 1983 and tried to buy out Fritz, but he wanted a deal-killer price. Vince wanted their tv market, which was the whole Dallas-Ft Worth metroplex. He went after Verne Gagne and the AWA for similar reasons, plus his talent. Verne had a big chunk of the major Midwestern cities, including Minneapolis-St Paul, Chicago, Salt Lake City and San Francisco. Fritz actually featured the Von Erichs in the first or one of the earliest WWF magazines and they didn't wrestle for him and the WWF had left the NWA. Kerry was a top choice for an alternate to Hogan. He was younger, better looking, a better worker, though he wasn't on Hogan's level for the promo. David was the promo guy, but his death in Japan left a lot of fans without ever seeing his work. Rude was better in WCW, because he had learned to work, by then, and was in with better workers. The WWF style has always been more about punch-kick and power moves, and that was his repertoire, there. In WCW, he was working with guys like Flair, Sting, Ricky Steamboat, and some of the New Japan guys, while touring there. I saw him when he started out, in Georgia (he also worked Mid-Atlantic and Mid-South) and he stunk up the ring. He was skinny and didn't execute well (he was another Ed Sharkey trainee and he didn't turn out great technical wrestlers) and was a dull promo. However, he had a certain something and he got better the more he worked with veterans. When he went to Memphis, he really developed his promo and his personality came through stronger, as he was more confident and was starting to get it. By the time he was in the WWF, he had been well schooled in promos and presentation, by Jarrett and Lawler and their crew. I liked him in World Class, too, as a heel. He had to roid to get any bulk on his frame, but never really had big muscles, just great definition that filled out his frame a little better. He always had a certain toughness and an aggressive attitude, which is part of why he survived his rookie years. he also had some of the best teachers in the business, including guys like Wahoo McDaniel, Dusty Rhodes, Flair, Lawler, Austin Idol, Jerry Jarrett, and worked with great managers, like Percy Pringle and Bobby Heenan. The WWF fans didn't know who a lot of the AWA guys were. Hogan had worked the WWF, before, and Rocky 3 made him a bigger name. Brunzell had worked MSG cards, but, outside of the AWA, was only known to Mid-Atlantic fans, from his time there. Schultz was known in Memphis; but not New York and wasn't as big of a name in the AWA. Hogan liked working with him and recruited him. Heenan was the best manager in the business and anyone could see that. Okerlund was the perfect fit for McMahon and the style he wanted to present. In the AWA, he was a bit more restrained, as Verne preferred a sports-based presentation, with wild heels. Gene got to go way over the top in the WWF, which fit the cartoon atmosphere. Plus, Verne was a bit cheaper than Vince, so Okerlund was compensated better. He was the premiere hype man. Most of the rest of the WWF's major talent acquisitions, with the expansion, were from Mid-Atlantic and Georgia, with a few from Florida. Then, he brought in the main Stampede stars, which were the Bulldogs and Bret Hart. Neidhart had been working Mid-South and Memphis, after having worked Stampede and marrying Ellie Hart. Piper & Orton were Mid-Atlantic guys, as was Valentine. Orndorff and Tito were Georgia guys and Brian Blair was a Florida worker. Then, he got some of the Mid-South guys, like Junkyard Dog, One Man Gang, Kamala, and Hacksaw Duggan. Back in the expansion period, in the mid-80s, it was common for talent to move between territories, after a while. When you had been featured for too long in one place, you could go somewhere else and be a fresh face and draw a new crowd. Then you might come back and be a bigger star. Wrestling was also more insular. before cable put the better promotions on national display, you only knew your local promotion. Where I grew up, it was the WWA, from Indianapolis, which was well past its better days, by the late 70s, let alone the early-mid-80s. We got the Poffo ICW show, which showed veterans, like Ronnie Garvin, and superstar-in-the-making Randy Savage. We were too far south for the AWA (the co-promoted Chicago, with the WWA, but didn't come down much further south and Bruiser didn't venture deep into Illinois, other than Peoria, on a regular basis). Central States didn't cross the Mississippi, though the did co-promote some cards in Decatur, with Bruiser, which had some decent talent (brought in Andre, for their first card, and Kerry Von Erich). We got cable tv in 1982, which gave us Georgia Championship Wrestling, on Superstation WTBS, Southwest Championship Wrestling, on the USA Network (Sundays), the WWF shows from Madison Square Garden (after the live event), plus the WWA show, from a Peoria station and the regular ICW tv show, from a Springfield station. Then, Southwest got kicked off of USA, after missing payments and a match with wrestlers being dumped in cows#@$) and Vince took over the Sunday slot, with All-American Wrestling. He used to show wrestlers from other territories, which ended up being a shopping list of guys he would sign for the expansion. I didn't get to see the AWA until they had the Wednesday night show, on ESPN. If you didn't read the magazines, you didn't know talent outside your area, other than matches being shown on the tv you did have. WTBS had a Sunday Best of World Championship Wrestling show, which featured repeats of some of the angles and actions, from the previous couple of weeks and also some matches from Mid-Atlantic, Mid-South, Florida and the AWA. The best, syndicated, was in the later 80s, when Joe Pedicino was syndicating Pro Wrestling This Week, hosted by himself and Gordon Solie. You got clips from all over, including World Class, Continental, Memphis, Puerto Rico, Stampede, Crockett, the AWA, WWF and even Japan. Pedicino and Bonnie Blackstone used to host an 8-hour block of wrestling programming on WATL, in Atlanta, called Superstars of Wrestling. They taped bumper segments, then presented the tv shows from the WWF, Crockett, Memphis, World Class, Puerto Rico, Continental and some of the Georgia independents, like Southern Championship Wrestling (promoted by Crusher Blackwell and featuring a young Paul E Dangerously, aka Paul Heyman) and Jodie Hamilton's Deep South Wrestling. When I was going to Supply Corps School, in Athens, GA, in 1988, I finally got to see the show, which had Crockett, the WWF, Memphis, Continental, Puerto Rico and USA Knoxville (Ron Fuller's attempt at reviving Knoxville, with Doug Furnas, the Mongolian Stomper, Buddy Landell, some of the Armstrongs and the Rock N Roll RPMs).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 6:29:21 GMT -5
Hang on, what’s this? Cody used nuance?! The very thing missing on anti-social media!
And they say anti-social media will replace forums. You get far more thought, insight and nuance on a forum.
Thanks for the views, Cody. Yes, I agree. I mean I did read that some think WWE acquired a lot of UK talent for NXT UK simply to stop UK promotions hiring them. True or false? I suspect the truth is in between. I suspect WWE has plans for some of them, but some may just be part of a bloated roster. I mean, I’m not entirely 100% on board with the NXT concept. Well, the concept is okay, but I am not necessarily on board with WWE having so much output. 3 hours of Raw, 2 hours of SD, all the NXT and NXT UK stuff. I don’t even bother watching MAIN EVENT.
I thought it was silly how WCW had people like Kevin Walchoz and Lanny Poffo under contract, without using them (did they use Walchoz after SLAMBOREE 1993?). Just seemed like a way to hold on to talent so that the WWF couldn’t get hold of them. Nice work for the wrestlers, being paid to do nothing, but silly.
I guess each case should be taken on its own merits. When Brock split from WWE in 2004, and after all the legal shenanigans seemed to get sorted out, I was hoping TNA would hire him. Not only were there fresh opponents for him, but I think he’d have added a lot of value to TNA at the time. But I never thought TNA should acquire someone just because they were former WWE.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 28, 2021 12:20:49 GMT -5
Hang on, what’s this? Cody used nuance?! The very thing missing on anti-social media! And they say anti-social media will replace forums. You get far more thought, insight and nuance on a forum. Thanks for the views, Cody. Yes, I agree. I mean I did read that some think WWE acquired a lot of UK talent for NXT UK simply to stop UK promotions hiring them. True or false? I suspect the truth is in between. I suspect WWE has plans for some of them, but some may just be part of a bloated roster. I mean, I’m not entirely 100% on board with the NXT concept. Well, the concept is okay, but I am not necessarily on board with WWE having so much output. 3 hours of Raw, 2 hours of SD, all the NXT and NXT UK stuff. I don’t even bother watching MAIN EVENT. I thought it was silly how WCW had people like Kevin Walchoz and Lanny Poffo under contract, without using them (did they use Walchoz after SLAMBOREE 1993?). Just seemed like a way to hold on to talent so that the WWF couldn’t get hold of them. Nice work for the wrestlers, being paid to do nothing, but silly. I guess each case should be taken on its own merits. When Brock split from WWE in 2004, and after all the legal shenanigans seemed to get sorted out, I was hoping TNA would hire him. Not only were there fresh opponents for him, but I think he’d have added a lot of value to TNA at the time. But I never thought TNA should acquire someone just because they were former WWE. Likely a certain element of truth to that, though more to keep them from being signed by AEW, New Japan, or Impact. At that time, they were snapping up indie guys, as New Japan was starting to promote shows in the US and Ring of Honor was working with them, and that was a bigger threat, since New Japan had money and experience to really challenge, with the right US talent. Once AEW was starting up, that added another threat, as Tony Khan had a lot of money at his disposal. I seriously doubt that the WWE was worried that Ricky Knight or Milton Keynes Championship Wrestling was going to snap up talent. I think that Regal was probably an influence in looking at UK talent, plus the regularity that they were doing shows in the UK. Regal certainly was a factor in bringing in a lot of UK veterans as trainers, like Robbie Brookside and even Johnny Saint, for seminars. Lanny got a contract to keep Randy happy and even he says that. He was supposed to debut as Gorgeous George, as Randy had purchased the gimmick and trademarked the name and Lanny was training to be in his best shape. However, Bischoff had no intention of using him and paid him to sit at home, as they all ready had too many guys on their shows, even the Saturday program. They blew a ton of money on the canceled KISS concert they were going to do, not to mention the Demon. They licensed the likenesses of all 4 band members and were supposed to introduce the rest, but the crowds crapped all over the Demon's debut, which ended up being like something out of Spinal Tap. Bischoff should write a book, titled "How to Lose 60 Million Dollars in Ten Easy Lessons." Granted, Russo needs to co-author, and Kevin Nash.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2021 12:30:22 GMT -5
Hang on, Milton Keynes Championship Wrestling recently put on a show in a stadium. 230,000 seats. £37bn in revenue - and PPV buyrates that were off the scale! Don’t write them off!
Yeah, that KISS thing, and I am a fan, was a mess. I read about how they were planning female KISS replicas in WCW. Why? How would that have drawn money? I have all of KISS’ CDs here, but I never once had a yearning to see them in WCW. When the Demon was active in WCW, I just lost interest.
THE DEATH OF WCW book mentioned how WCW used to fly in every performer to each major show even if there were no plans to use them. Eventually, they just flew in the performers that were only going to wrestle on the show. Truly, revolutionary thinking that should have warranted a Nobel Prize at least.
You’ve got me thinking about WCW. How Bam Bam Bigelow got counted out in a ‘falls count anywhere’ match. I thought anywhere meant, well, anywhere. Even Pluto or the Andromeda Galaxy. But I guess Bam Bam Bigelow must have ended up in an antimatter universe or something, so perhaps ‘falls count anywhere’ only applies to this universe. Who knows? I should reread my DEATH OF WCW copy!
Even as a layman, I knew a promotion has to draw ratings and make money. So when I was enjoying WCW’s light-heavyweight stuff in ‘92, including that great Pillman/Liger match at SUPERBRAWL II, I wanted to see more. I tuned in to WCW WORLDWIDE and bought the VHS tapes. Who knows, perhaps an American put down his/her hard-earned money for a PPV if either Liger or Pillman were advertised. That’s how business works, eh? So what the hell was Russo thinking with having Ed Ferrara impersonate JR and wrestle in a cruiserweight match? Clueless. Utterly clueless. Probably funny to them only. Wouldn’t draw a future rating or make money on PPV.
I think we can state some things as facts based on intuition. People, whether they be Brits or Americans (or anyone who had access), watched shows and bought tapes. Rick Rude was a big draw for me at the time, he and others kept me watching WCW. So WCW were doing right by utilising him. But I would bet my entire income that NO person ever said, “I must tune in next week to see a JR impersonator. And I really must order the PPV to see two non-cruiserweights wrestle in a cruiserweight bout.”
Honestly, WCW has me ranting!
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Post by commond on Dec 28, 2021 18:11:23 GMT -5
Like most fans, I tend to look back on pre-Hogan WCW fondly, especially 1992 WCW with the Dangerous Alliance stuff. They had a great roster, and there was a period under Kip Frey where the workers were given bonuses for having the match of the night. It's easy to watch a random 1992 WCW television match and think, "that's wrestling done right." But, you have to remember that WCW at the time wasn't making money, and they were churning out a lot of Wrestlecrap stunts that people, in my circles anyway, tend to ignore these days because we can find good wrestling on the undercards. Bischoff turned WCW into one of the most successful promotions of all-time. I prefer the pre-Hogan era in terms of the actual wrestling, but there's no comparison when it comes to which product drew more money. The Russo & Ferrera stuff was childish, but it was the same type of skit that had been used throughout the Monday Night Wars. The problem is that it's easier to throw potshots when you're red hot. When you're struggling, it comes across as desperate.
I haven't watched a lot of AEW, but people seem to be enjoying it. Finally, there's an alternative to the stale, corporate WWE. Tony Khan was a message board poster when I first came online, so it's amusing to see him turn his super fandom into actual pro-wrestling booking. Now I understand how he could afford all those tapes.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 28, 2021 18:54:48 GMT -5
Big Show DID wrestle one match,... mostly just to squash heel QT Marshall and get a nice pop. Mark Henry is just commentating... he does a back stage interview before the main event of Rampage every week, and maybe does something on the you tube shows, that's it. No idea what they're getting paid.
Christian wrestled for a bit at first (and even went over Omega to get the TNA title off him), but lately is in a similar role as Matt Hardy.. functioning as manager for Jurassic Express, and getting into the multi-man tag matches.
Totally agree Punk and Danielson (and Cole, imo) were no brainers. I think bringing in the rest of undisputed era could be awesome, assuming they feud them with the Elite when Omega comes back.. that'll be great fun.
I could do without Ruby Riot/Soho and Malakai Black and a couple of the other mid carders, but they ARE a step up from the likes of Danny Havoc and Joey Janella.
Cody does push himself too much for sure... but he's REALLY hearing about it from the crowd now. He's going to have to turn soon...which should be fun to see.
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