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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 26, 2020 16:37:42 GMT -5
I like the circus analogy. It is the performer who makes the gimmick. Razor Ramon was far more compelling than the Diamond Studd. And Vinnie Vegas entertained me far more than Oz did. I liked it when he and Diamond Dallas Page would act smooth and team up. I read (possibly in Flair’s autobiography) that Jim Herd wanted to turn Flair into Spartacus. What?! I mean, Flair was very talented, but you can’t make a pie out of dog shit. When I first started watching JCP/WCW, it was for “The Man” Ric Flair - and not because I wanted to see him become Spartacus. That is true. Herd wanted to create all kinds of characters, based on movies in the MGM library, which Turner owned (hence, Oz). He wanted Flair out; so whether that was a legit idea or a poison pill is a matter of conjecture. Flair quite and went to the WWF, with the NWA title belt (well, the Crockett belt, which represented the NWA World title). Herd demanded the belt back and Flair told him to send his $25,000 bond and interest, which was put up when he won the title. The NWA title required a guarantee bond (Flair's was $25,000) to keep the champion from running off with the title. The only time that came close to being invoked was to get Buddy Rogers into the match with Lou Thesz, to drop the belt, after the NWA board voted him out, as champion. They threatened to give the bond to charity if Rogers didn't show up at the match. In his book, Thesz said he told Rogers, in the ring, they could have a shoot or they could have a good match, his choice. Rogers chose to have a good match and dropped the title. Flair was the last champion to have to put up a bond. Since his title losses were all short term, no one else had to put up money and it was kept in escrow. Herd ended up telling him to keep the belt, though the NWA Board put out a cease and desist order, to prevent the title from appearing on WWF tv and Flair sent the belt back. I believe he said he never got his money back. Knowing Flair, though, he might have gotten it back and blown it on drinks celebrating and forgot about it. I think, in Herd's mind, Flair had a resemblance to Kirk Douglas, in the film and he thought, Spartacus! The film did have at least one pro wrestling connection (aside from gladiatorial combat being an ancestor of pro wrestling bouts, even down to worked fights): Woody Strode, who played the Ethiopian, had wrestled in Los Angeles and elsewhere, as well as play football in the NFL, before going into movies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 7:48:33 GMT -5
The latest issue of INSIDE THE ROPES featured a piece about whether Bret Hart would have benefited from beating Hulk Hogan for the WWF Championship in 1993.
What do you think?
At the time, I did want to see a Hogan/Bret match-up. Apparently, a SUMMERSLAM ‘93 poster was produced with Hogan and Hart engaged in a tug of war over the belt. Looking back, I think it’d have been great for Hogan to pass the torch to Bret, perhaps via submission. However, let’s not forget that Hogan - and I am a fan - could be a manipulator. In his autobiography, he mentioned how he tried to steal the spotlight from Ultimate Warrior after their WM VI match by handing Warrior the belt. If Bret had beaten Hogan, Hogan could have made the match all about him. The writer expressed that view.
Anyway, the writer of the article stated that he feels Bret’s path to a second WWF Championship worked far better by going through Jerry Lawler, feuding with Owen Hart, regaining it from Yokozuna - and then feuding with Owen afterwards. The writer felt that was more beneficial to Hart than if he had beaten Hogan in the summer of 1993.
Any thoughts?
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 27, 2020 19:17:53 GMT -5
The latest issue of INSIDE THE ROPES featured a piece about whether Bret Hart would have benefited from beating Hulk Hogan for the WWF Championship in 1993. What do you think? At the time, I did want to see a Hogan/Bret match-up. Apparently, a SUMMERSLAM ‘93 poster was produced with Hogan and Hart engaged in a tug of war over the belt. Looking back, I think it’d have been great for Hogan to pass the torch to Bret, perhaps via submission. However, let’s not forget that Hogan - and I am a fan - could be a manipulator. In his autobiography, he mentioned how he tried to steal the spotlight from Ultimate Warrior after their WM VI match by handing Warrior the belt. If Bret had beaten Hogan, Hogan could have made the match all about him. The writer expressed that view. Anyway, the writer of the article stated that he feels Bret’s path to a second WWF Championship worked far better by going through Jerry Lawler, feuding with Owen Hart, regaining it from Yokozuna - and then feuding with Owen afterwards. The writer felt that was more beneficial to Hart than if he had beaten Hogan in the summer of 1993. Any thoughts? He would have benefitted greatly from beating Hogan, as it would have given him a very big rub; plus it would have signaled both Hogan passing the torch and the rise of the smaller wrestler, in the Big Man territory. I think he was badly hurt by dropping the title to Yokozuna, who then immediately dropped it to a returning Hogan. It pretty much buried Bret. I agree that the second title reign meant more, though I don't know that the Lawler feud really added anything to it, as much as the amazing matches with Owen. Owen was always the most natural worker of the bunch and the most versatile; but, he also saw wrestling only as a means to an end, for his family, and not his life. Given his talent, if Owen had been driven to be the top dog, like Bret, he would have been the one carrying the title. The problem with Bret's era is that it coincides with a massive downturn in the business. Neither Bret nor Shawn drew big houses, as champion, because no one was, not even Hogan, in WCW. Bret was more over in international areas, which the WWF took advantage of by touring those areas, which kept them from financial difficulty. Same for WCW, whose European tours did way better than their US houses.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 7:13:43 GMT -5
The latest issue of WRESTLETALK had an article about unionisation in wrestling, specifically whether there’ll ever be a labor union in wrestling.
It was insightful, including how the likes of Jesse Ventura tried to lobby for a union. Personally, though, I don’t think there’ll ever be a union as wrestling, by its nature, features performers who aren’t necessarily on the same page.
I’ve been in two unions in my life (I had clerical roles, one with the Civil Service, another with the local council). Now, while every union member isn’t going to see eye-to-eye with each other, we were all on the same page. I actually went on strike twice in my life. When it came to protecting pay and pensions, or fighting against something unfair, we were all united. We all wanted the same thing: a decent pension, a pay rise when warranted, etc.
Wrestling would be different. Imagine if there’d been, say, a union in 1994, one that WCW recognised. The likes of Stunning Steve Austin and Frank Anderson would probably have wanted to join a union, being mid-card/lower card at the time. But why would Hulk Hogan have joined a union? If anything, Hogan would have probably lobbied against a union as his interests/desires would not have coincided with mid-card/opening card wrestlers. Or, imagine a union in 2000-2003. Why would Triple H have joined a union? How would the interests of him and, say, Hurricane Helms have coincided?
A wrestling union could only work, in my humble opinion, if EVERY wrestler joined the union and united for better pay and conditions. But even if a union existed, I can’t imagine the heavy hitters wanting to unite with lower-card wrestlers. By its nature, wrestling is about protecting your spot.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 28, 2020 23:37:10 GMT -5
Thanksgiving, in the US, was traditionally a night of wrestling shows, in the territories. In 1983, Jim Crockett launched the Thanksgiving tradition of Starrcade, with the first supercard, at the Greensboro Colosseum, where Ric Flair defeated Harley Race to recapture the NWA World Heavyweight title. So, this Thanksgiving, thanks to Youtube, I was able to relieve a card I saw in a previous November, on USA cable, when they broadcast the monthly matches from Madison Square Garden, for the WWF. The card features a couple of great bouts, then some typical WWF matches, with the usual slow, punch-kick style of wrestling favored there. The card was as follows: Curt Hennig vs Eddie Gilbert Swede Hanson vs SD Jones Tiger Mask (champion) vs Jose Estrada, for the WWF Junior Heavyweight Championship Butch Cassidy & Sky Lo Lo vs Little Beaver and Sunny Boy, 2 out of 3 falls midget tag-team match Bob Backlund (champion) vs Superstar Billy Graham, for the WWF Heavyweight Championship Mr Fuji vs Sal Bellomo Pedro Morales (champion) vs Playboy Buddy Rose, for the WWF Intercontinental Championship Superfly Jimmy Snuka vs Captain Lou Albano, grudge match, with former NWA and WWWF World Heavyweight Champion Nature Boy Buddy Rogers in Snuka's corner Ray "The Crippler" Stevens vs Chief Jay Strongbow Charlie Fulton vs Jules Strongbow Riki Chosu & Mr Saito vs Rocky Johnson and Tony Garea Tiger Mask, Chosu and Saito were all New Japan wrestlers, appearing as part of the promotional relationship between the WWF and New Japan. The WWF Jr Heavyweight title was defended in Japan, though Tiger Mask won in in the US in a match against Dynamite Kid, at Madison Square Garden. TM did a few tours for the WWF, defending the title, as did, later, The Cobra (George Takano). Saito regularly appeared in a tag-team, with Mr Fuji. Chosu was still relatively young in his career, though he had been wrestling for about 8 years and would soon become one of the top heavyweight stars for New Japan. The opening bout, between a young Curt Hennig (a 2 year rookie, at this point) and Eddie Gilbert (5 years in the business), is really good, with both of them hailed as second generation wrestlers (though Gorilla Monsoon only mentions Larry "The Axe" Hennig and not Tommy Gilbert, Eddie's father) and both of them young rookies featured in undercard matches for the WWF. Hennig had debuted in the AWA, then spent about a year in the WWF, before heading to Portland, to wrestle for Don Owens, before returning to the AWA, for most of the rest of the 80s, rising to the AWA World title. Gilbert began in Tennessee and was brought into the WWF in 1982, as an up and comer, but was seriously injured in a car accident, in 1983, which damaged his neck. He eventually returned to action, where he was allied with Bob Backlund, leading to Superstar Graham attacking him and performing two neckbreakers on him, reinjuring him (storyline). From there, he went back to Tennessee, where he worked as part of the New Fabulous Ones, with Tommy Rich, until Gilbert turned heel and attacked Rich. he then moved on to the UWF, where he met and married Missy Hyatt and managed Rick Steiner and Sting, as part of Hot Stuff/Hyatt International. from there, he bounced around between the Continental Wrestling Federation (the Alabama territory, renamed) Crockett, Tennessee, Puerto Rico and Global Wrestling Federation, before ending up booking for Todd Gordon's Eastern Championship Wrestling. it was Gilbert who transformed the Philadelphia indy promotion into Extreme Championship wrestling, before leaving it in the hands of Paul Heyman. Gilbert went on to book in Puerto Rico, when he was found dead of a heart attack, in 1995, after damage from the car wreck, ring injuries, an addiction to painkilelrs and narcotics and alcohol. Swede Hanson was an old hand who worked the Carolinas and elsewhere, while SD Jones was a fixture of the WWF undercard. The midget match was a common thing, as a troupe of midget wrestlers toured the country, working for various promotions, as did Moolah's troupe of lady wrestlers. They were usually booked as a special attraction. Sky Lo Lo was a veteran, while Butch cassidy was one of the tallest midget wrestler. It wasn't unusual for midget wrestlers to utilize several different names, throughout their career. Backlund vs Graham was during Graham's bizarre karate revamp, where he gave up his old tie-dye look and switched to karate pants and a black belt, using bogus karate moves. I read his book, years back, and he describes the period as being a low point in his career, as he was suffering from burnout and kind of did it as an F-U for having to drop the title to Backlund, while he was a popular champion. The look actually parallels actor/body builder Dan Vadis, in the movie Death Is Nimble, Death is Quick (aka Kommissar X and the 3 Golden Cats, in German, part of the Kommissar X series of Eurospy films), where he is a martial arts assassin. Graham was acquainted with Vadis, as a part of the Venice Beach muscle scene. The match followed an angle where Graham attacked Backlund and destroyed the title belt, which led to the introduction of the green leather belt, with the round central plate, which Backlund wore and lost to the Iron Shiek, who then lost it to Hogan. Hogan wore it for the first few months of his reign, before they introduced the new belt, whose shape resempbled the belt he had in Rocky III, as Thunderlips... Chief Jay (Joe Scarpa, an Italian) and Jules Strongbow (Frank Hill, a legit Native American, whose name was taken from LA wrestling promoter Jules Strongbow) were the WWF tag-team champions, having defeated Mr Fuji and Mr Saito, in October. They would lose the titles to Afa & Sika, who dropped them to Rocky Johnson and Tony Atlas, leading into the Hulkamania era. Jay Strongbow was a longtime road agent for the WWF and was generally disliked by the wrestlers as an office stooge and all around a-hole. He was responsible for denying Randy Savage's request that Angelo be added to a legends battle royal, which soured Randy on the WWF and was one of the grudges he bore there. Jimmy Snuka had just turned babyface, after a program with Bob Backlund, due to his immense popularity. At the time, he was the top draw for the WWF; but, he wasn't trustworthy enough to hold the title. he was turned babyface when he was attacked by his manager, Lou Albano and Ray Stevens, which they show. this was Snuka getting revenge on Albano, with Buddy Rogers as his new manager. Rogers was actually his babysitter and eventually quit the job, as Snuka was too hard to control and was abusive to his girlfriend, Nancy Argento, who he eventually killed, in a fit of violent rage. Pedro Morales was the popular Puerto Rican draw in New York, which had a large Puerto Rican population. He defeated Ivan Koloff to win the WWWF heavyweight title and held it for several years, before dropping it to Stan Stasiak, to quickly transition it back to Bruno Sammartino. Pedro then eventually became a two-time Intercontinental champion, most recently defeating Don Muraco for his second run (he eventually lost it back to Muraco) Buddy Rose was another Verne Gagne trainee and a tremendous athlete, even as he grew fatter. He used to blow away fitter wrestlers in foot races and could go, in the ring. He became a longtime fixture in Portland wrestling, as both heel and babyface. He was often booked as a clown in the WWF; but, he was a respected performer, among the boys and by Vince. He was inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame, last year, as a legacy performer (dead guy).
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 28, 2020 23:45:11 GMT -5
ps here is the angle where Graham destroyed the belt...
(pretty old and battered footage)
Backlund's crying over the felt is thought, by many, to have weakened him as a draw in the WWF, leading to guys like Snuka and Muraco being featured in the main event bouts, instead of Backlund and the title, though he held it for 5 years, including a year after the angle, until Vince Jr was running things and wanted a change, to lead into his national expansion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 6:48:06 GMT -5
A prank, surely?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 9:37:01 GMT -5
Pat Patterson has passed away: itrwrestling.com/news/pat-patterson-passes-away-breaking I’m sure some site will do a worthy obituary. Not sure how true it is, but around the mid-90s, I read that Pat Patterson laid out most of the Hogan/Warrior WM VI match. If true, he did a great job.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 2, 2020 12:47:04 GMT -5
Pretty sure this is BS; Vince bought WCW's assets and trademarks outright, from Warner. He owns their footage, logos PPV name trademarks and any other trademarks the company had,. He doesn't part with that. The only possible scenario I see, of this being legit is if the WWE are using this as a front to revive the name and create a fake rival. However, given they have AEW as a real, though hardly challenging rival, I don't see that scenario playing out. Sounds like some carny trying to draw a house, like the UK promoter who used to advertise fake WWF wrestlers, back in the 90s.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 2, 2020 13:11:04 GMT -5
Here is a bio of Patterson, from Slam Wrestling and Greg Oliver...Patterson was a French Canadian, named Pierre Clermont who learned to wrestle in a church basement. He was good at it. Soon, he was wrestling professionally in Canada and the US. It was really on the West Coast, especially San Francisco, that Patterson became a legend. He was the biggest draw there, for years, fighting over the US title and winning the World tag-team titles with several partners. He had legendary feuds with Pepper Gomez and Ray Stevens and he and Stevens were the top tag-team, as the Blond Bombers, selling out the Cow Palace on multiple occasions. He was the first Intercontinental Champion. In 1979, he was the WWWF North American Champion and they decided to rename it and make it sound more international. He supposedly went to Rio de Janeiro (site of fictitious tournament to crown the first world champion, when in reality, they just continued to recognize Buddy Rogers, after he lost the title to Thesz) and faced the other champions in a tournament and beat the South American champion to become the Inter-Continental Champion (why that instead of Western Hemisphere, I don't know). He was primarily a heel, for most of that time, but was turned babyface and had a tremendous boot camp match with Sgt Slaughter, where they beat the hell out of each other. he then became a color commentator, as he scaled back on his wrestling appearances. With the expansion of the WWF, he became the French language commentator. Behind the scenes though, he was the key player. Vince has always been the booker, once he took control of the company; but, Pat was the one who came up with the finishes and was the booker in fact, if not name. Without him, there is no Hulkamania or Brett vs Shawn. There is no Wrestlemania, no Undertaker streak. Anything that was good or memorable in the WWF had Patterson's fingerprints all over it. Patterson was also gay, and had a partner for many years, Louis Dondero. He wasn't open about it; but also didn't try to hide it deeply; he was just private about his private life. He spoke of it on Legends House, in a very moving moment He also had a wrestling connection, before he was a wrestler, as his sister used to date Roger Barnes, who would go on to be NWA World Champion Ronnie Garvin. Garvin was also from Montreal (listen to the two of them talk and you will hear the accent).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 13:24:17 GMT -5
Regarding those fake “WWF” cards in the UK, would you believe I attended some events in coastal towns?
It made me laugh. You’d have an ‘Undertaker’ who was about 5 foot 11, the same height as I am. They were shameless in promoting those cards!
Regarding Patterson, I saw that Boot Camp match on a DVD released around 2005/06. I feel it’s one of the greatest WWF matches ever.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 2, 2020 23:51:07 GMT -5
Patterson and Stevenson were said to be amazing as a team and that picture shows them with the AWA World Tag-Team titles, which they held there, after holding the San Francisco version of the NWA World Tag-Team titles. While still a heel, Patterson used to host a segment on the WWF tv show, for Canadian broadcast, where he interviewed wrestlers, in English, then mocked them, in French.
Here's Pat defeating Ted Dibiase for the WWWF North American title...
Previously, the WWWF had had a US Heavyweight Championship (1963-1976) which was introduced with Bobo Brazil as the first champion (probably based on the Chicago US title, from which the Detroit US title was also drawn). It was largely a gimmick for Brazil, who held it, off and on, until it was discontinued. He had also been US champion in Detroit and Toronto. The WWWF North American title only existed in 1979. Ted DiBiase was the first champion, coming in as champion. Dibiase came to the WWWF from the Mid-South territory, where he had held their North American title, in 1976. It's possible this title was created as a way to get him over in the WWWF and to make it look like the Mid-South title, which would have been shown in the magazines. He dropped the title to Pat, in June. In September, they made the on-air claim that Patterson had won the tournament in Rio to unify the North American title with the South American title, creating the first Inter-Continental Championship. From that point on, he defended the Inter-Continental title. In November, he traveled to Japan and dropped the North American title to Seiji Sakaguchi, and it was then used in New Japan, until the following year. New Japan's top title was the NWF Heavyweight title, which had been the top title for National Wrestling Federation promotion, out of Buffalo, NY, where Johnny Powers was the top star. Powers brought the title to Japan when the NWF closed up. Inoki used it until the early 80s, when it was replaced by the WWF International title, which was then replaced by the IWGP Heavy weight title, the current top title (original, the IWGP was a tournament, with a winner each year, who was named the IWGP champion, until they created an actual belt and defended it in regular matches).
It would be remiss to ignore a less than stellar part of Pat's career. In 1992, the WWF was rocked by a scandal involving the sexual harassment of "ring boys, " young men who carried the ring jackets of performers back to the dressing room. Three WWF execs were accused in the scandal: Mel Phillips, Terry Garvin and Pat Patterson. Phillips and Garvin had multiple accusations and were forced out of the company. Pat was accused by a ring announcer and was released by the company; but, came back when the heat died out. Now, the charges were recanted and there was some conjecture whether he was accused because he was gay or had actually harassed anyone. Garvin & Phillips had multiple accusations and a ton of evidence. Barry Orton, brother of Bob Jr and uncle of Randy, was one of the accusers of Terry Garvin and he later said he never saw Pat do anything wrong, in conjunction with what had been going on. Garvin was also gay, but had a history of harassing behavior in the territories. Pat had been instrumental in getting him the job, in the WWF.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 14:38:39 GMT -5
Should Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior have had a rematch in the WWF?
I like their WM VI match. Fan favourite vs fan favourite matches were so rare back then, that it was a novelty to see the two top WWF wrestlers go at it. I wasn’t disappointed. Sadly, I was disappointed in their HALLOWEEN HAVOC ‘98 rematch years later.
I would have liked to have seen Hogan vs. Warrior again. Or would I? Could it have lived up to the magic of the original? I do smile about how, naive though I was, I accepted President Jack Tunney’s explanation for there not being a rematch. I think, within the pages of a WWF-sanctioned publication, he stated he wouldn’t sanction a rematch because of concerns both wrestlers would hurt themselves too badly if they fought again.
One barrier, I suppose, would have been having them go at it a second time while both faces. Hogan would certainly not have turned heel in early 90s WWF. Nor would Warrior. I did read a newsletter at the time which stated the WWF planned to turn Warrior heel in late 1992 and have him face Hulk Hogan at SUMMERSLAM ‘92. I think that may be bullshit. No reputable source that I know of reported on such a thing.
What compelling reason, storyline-wise, would there have been to have two fan favourites battle a second time? Bragging rights, perhaps. And I am sure Hogan would have wanted the win in any rematch on WWF soil.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 5, 2020 21:52:55 GMT -5
Never heard they ever wanted to turn Warrior heel and he was a terrible heel. he had heeled as part of the Blade Runners (with Sting) in Memphis and Mid-South; but, they stunk up the joint all the way around (work and talking). Bill Watts told them to learn how to work or hit the bricks. Sting learned to work (from Eddie Gilbert) and Warrior hit the bricks for Dallas, who were too desperate to care. He debuted as a heel; but, never really did heelish things and they gave him a manager (first Gary Hart, then Percy Pringle/Paul Bearer). Still stunk up the joint; but, he had the roided look that Vince wanted, so he ended up there.
The only way you could logically do a return match is with a Hogan heel turn and that wasn't going to happen. The only reason Hogan did the clean job was that he was leaving for Hollywood, supposedly permanently, until his film flopped.
You can get away with face vs face once; but, after that, someone has to be the heel, and Hogan was getting booed, in some markets. His return didn't help that, later and they should have done a heel turn, then.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 6, 2020 20:59:06 GMT -5
Here's Corny's response to the tweet....
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