|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 11:20:24 GMT -5
Although I don't think it should ever be overdone, I always enjoyed it when supervillains would pick on superheroes that were not their usual adversaries (I like how Acts of Vengeance featured such a premise). No-one wants too much of a good thing, but it was always fun to see the likes of Scorpion take on Captain America or the Joker clash with Superman.
I always enjoyed the novelty, whether it was a JB issue of Superman featuring the Man of Steel versus the Clown Prince of Crime, Spider-Man taking on Bullseye, or Daredevil taking on Dr. Octopus.
Provided it is not overdone, "cross-pollination" should be something that editors utilise now and again. After all, it is fun to see Spidey take on Dr. Octopus many times, but how much more refreshing is it to see Octopus clash with the Fantastic Four instead? As much as one likes seeing the Riddler leave clues for the Dark Knight, how about seeing him cause bewilderment for Green Lantern or Aquaman?
And there are scenarios that are loaded with "flavour". Having Bruce Banner and Dr. Curt Connors meet in order to deal with their mutual aggression issues, and then having a quick punch-up via Hulk VS Lizard, might be fun (I suggested that in a letter, recently published in Immortal Hulk). It'd be great if Captain America was the only hero available when Green Goblin goes on a rampage. Or how about the Fantastic Four being the last line of defence against Juggernaut?
It could even work with villain vs villain. Why wouldn't Kraven decide to hunt down the Lizard? Why wouldn't Doctor Doom and Dr. Octopus clash over something important to both men?
I know "cross-pollination" does occasionally occur nowadays, but in this age of multi-issue arcs, where six issues might see Cap taking on Red Skull or Crossbones, "cross-pollination" seems to be happening less and less. As stated earlier, it shouldn't be overdone, but it certainly should, in my humble opinion, be done now and again.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 14:53:54 GMT -5
You are right. I am having trouble remembering when this happened recently. In the past it was fun to see villains go up against someone different. I remember Mysterio fighting Daredevil back in Kevin Smith's run almost 20 years ago. I would love to see some of this again.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 15:06:04 GMT -5
I know some might say I've been reading comics for too long if I am noticing the same encounters time and time again. But I think it's about more than that. I think there are some cool scenarios.
Iron Man VS Sinister Six or Captain America VS Lizard would give us something fresh. Spidey can leap about when fighting Lizard - and has all the webs at his disposal; however, whilst Cap is at the peak of physical perfection, he had better keep that shield close when fighting Lizard. How would he defeat Lizard? What strategy would he come up with?
Sometimes it's about story, not just action. I could imagine Banner and Connors getting together to research how to deal with their respective alter-ego problems. And from there, we'd have a (short) punch-up between Hulk and Lizard.
I really would like to see more of this.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 15:23:13 GMT -5
I remember back in the 70's when Aquaman fought the Weather Wizard (Flash Rogue). It was cool to see a different approach to defeating the villain.
I think it would "freshen up" some old villains by having them face different heroes.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Dec 30, 2018 17:31:22 GMT -5
One reason, I believe, for the decrease in "cross-pollination" today is that you have fewer one-and-done issues. With decompressed storylines that are published with an eye for how they will fit into a TPB, there is less need to plug in a different hero's foe into another hero's book. Captain America could feature a six-part arc where the Red Skull and one minion (Crossbones, Doctor Faustus, etc.) are the villains, then follow it up with two-parter where Cap fights Batroc, then a four-parter against some remnants from the old Serpent Society and voila, there's an entire year of books and just four or five villains are needed. In the early days at Marvel, the directive was to keep stories contained to one, maybe two issues, and as such, more villains were needed to fill up the calendar.
Another factor in this could have been sharing a writer, as Stan Lee alone was writing ASM, Captain America, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Thor for stretches of time (lesser on IM than the others). Because of sharing a fictional home (New York City), it made sense that Spider-Man and Daredevil might run into the same villains now and again; in the early days of the DD title, Matt faced Electro, Ox, and the Beetle, all foes introduced in the pages of ASM. As well, since he was familiar with the bad guys already, Stan could easily take Scorpion out of ASM and put him into Captain America #122 or use the Super-Skrull in Thor #142 or the Ringmaster and his Circus of Crime in Thor #146 and he didn't have to come up with anything new that month.
As for being done more now, I really don't have an opinion, because my days of picking up stacks of newly-printed books are over. I buy just two monthly books from the Big Two (Aquaman and Captain America) and I probably wouldn't pick up a book randomly because there was a villain swap with another title.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 18:08:42 GMT -5
One reason, I believe, for the decrease in "cross-pollination" today is that you have fewer one-and-done issues. With decompressed storylines that are published with an eye for how they will fit into a TPB, there is less need to plug in a different hero's foe into another hero's book. It is a shame, eh? I'd love to see Cap battle Electro. Or have the Fantastic Four take on Abomination. There are so many encounters I am not sure have ever happened (have the Fantastic Four ever battled Juggernaut?). But I know "cross-pollination" won't be a thing in the era of decompression. |
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Dec 30, 2018 18:41:45 GMT -5
One reason, I believe, for the decrease in "cross-pollination" today is that you have fewer one-and-done issues. With decompressed storylines that are published with an eye for how they will fit into a TPB, there is less need to plug in a different hero's foe into another hero's book. It is a shame, eh? I'd love to see Cap battle Electro. Or have the Fantastic Four take on Abomination. There are so many encounters I am not sure have ever happened (have the Fantastic Four ever battled Juggernaut?). But I know "cross-pollination" won't be a thing in the era of decompression. Cap did fight Doc Ock in issue #259, but outside of appearances as part of an ensemble in issues #411-413, Electro has never faced off against Cap one-on-one. From a classic sense, no Abomination vs FF matchup (he did appear in issue #534 of their book) nor a Juggernaut vs FF pairing. Some of my favorite one-off "cross-pollination" issues (just off the top of my head) are: Amazing Spider-Man #229-230 vs The Juggernaut (fantastic story, showing Peter Parker's heart and brains to full effect) Captain America #279-280 vs Scarecrow (always liked this villain) Sub-Mariner #49 vs MODOK (I'm a sucker for the big-headed baby) |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 18:48:07 GMT -5
Didn't Cap and Spidey go against Electro in an issue of The Amazing Spider-Man? I could be wrong!  I'd love to see the FF's individual powers against Juggy. How would the Thing's strength handle Juggy (badly, I suspect)? Could the Invisible Woman slow down Juggy with her force field? What about the Human Torch's fire? And what scientific method would Reed come up with to take down Juggy? I also like that Spidey/Juggy encounter. Is it the one where he tricks Juggy into stepping in the cement? We need another Acts of Vengeance. I'd also like to see Juggernaut VS Destroyer. I can't pick a winner for that one! |
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Dec 30, 2018 18:54:30 GMT -5
Didn't Cap and Spidey go against Electro in an issue of The Amazing Spider-Man? I could be wrong! No, you are right about this team-up, as it happened in issue #187. That's the one! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 19:38:18 GMT -5
DD vs Crusher Creel in #360
Kesel's run had DD face a lot of different villains that weren't "his" rogues. Mr Hyde. Pyro. The Enforcers. Molten Man. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 30, 2018 22:10:20 GMT -5
I think that's another factor of the fact that Marvel and DC aren't really shared universes anymore... every writer essentially has their own pocket universe that only resemble each other incidently.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 6:56:26 GMT -5
I think that's another factor of the fact that Marvel and DC aren't really shared universes anymore... every writer essentially has their own pocket universe that only resemble each other incidently. Good point. And they are less richer for it, in my opinion. As I stated in my initial post, "cross-pollination" shouldn't be overdone. Nothing should. But as a kid, it was fun to pick up an issue of any comic and find a new encounter. It was fun, for instance, to pick up Superman Vol. 2 #9, featuring Superman VS The Joker. Or X-Men VS Doctor Doom. Within the context of the fictional universe, the law of averages dictates that heroes, particularly New Yorkers, will come across certain villains. The law of averages dictates that Daredevil will be passing just as Vulture is attacking a bank, or it'll be Spider-Man hanging from a flagpole as the Jester begins an attack. I know there will have to be contrivances if we're talking different cities, but fiction is about contrivances. Where would fiction be without contrivances? Why did the likes of the A-Team and Michael Knight seem to come across towns where corrupt mayors or sheriffs were exploiting people? So there should be "cross-pollination" even when discussing different cities. I'd like to see a Superman/Riddler encounter. Like Supes/Joker, it won't be about brawn, but about brain. Clark Kent could be in Gotham City, working on a story. Batman is elsewhere. For the first time in his life, Superman will have to solve riddles, an area that isn't his usual expertise. Of course, when he catches up with Riddler, it's "game over", but in the meantime, Riddler could provide some challenges for the Man of Steel's grey matter! |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Dec 31, 2018 8:51:20 GMT -5
I think that's another factor of the fact that Marvel and DC aren't really shared universes anymore... every writer essentially has their own pocket universe that only resemble each other incidently. That isn't true. There's currently a lot of cross-title continuity in DC books, notably because of the events in Doomsday Clock and Heroes in Crisis, which have been referenced in Action, Green Arrow, Flash, Superman and Titans, the shooting of Nightwing in Detective which has made waves everywhere, and the events of the recent Metal series. I'm currently reading far less Marvel, admittedly, but even there, there seems to be continuity between various titles I do read. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 9:00:10 GMT -5
There is continuity, you're right, but it feels like continuity for the sake of whatever the biggest event is right now. Not that that's a bad thing, but that's what it appears to be, e.g. "Let's get every title on board for Secret Empire.
Whereas in the "old days", it felt more interconnected without the need for big events. Kraven could show up and hunt the Beast. Cap could cross paths with Electro. Iron Man could be the one that happens to show up to deal with Rhino.
Anything could happen!
Nowadays, it feels like the only time "cross-pollination" can be allowed to happen is if there's a big event on. There's a place for that, but I miss the days of randomness, where Daredevil would come across Vulture, or Joker just happened to be visiting Metropolis.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 1, 2019 1:27:56 GMT -5
I haven't been reading either DC event, but aren't the going at the same time? Shouldn't the impact each other? It's nice Nightwing actually has some consistency (even if Didio is still trying to get rid of him, sounds like)... last I read his appearance Batgirl was completely divorced from what was going on his his book, never mind when he got sucked into Bat events.
It's not during Events I'm talking about.. its the impacts after, and the guest appearances that are part of an event.. those get totally messed up most times.
|
|
