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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 9, 2019 18:21:39 GMT -5
I'm not saying high issue numbers are the only barrier, merely that they are one barrier. And any barriers that one can get rid of can never be a bad thing, surely? I appreciate the fact that, as mrp stated, large swaths of the country don't have a comic store. The UK is small compared to the US, but even here, there are towns which would be many, many miles from a comic store such as Forbidden Planet. And without new readers spontaneously discovering a Superman or Spider-Man book, it does seem grim. But any barriers that could be got rid of should be got rid of, in my opinion. I agree 100% with you. But he comic companies don't really care.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 8:41:23 GMT -5
When I have asked some within the industry about it (e.g. via social media), I get the tired response, "A new number #1 brings in new readers."
Great. But does it retain those readers? It's no good having 50,000 new readers pick up #1 and then not bother with #2, #3, #4, etc.
I wish I could survey every new reader who has picked up a #1 and ask them if they kept buying. Otherwise, it's pointless.
And high issue numbers certainly didn't attract or retain me. Picking up something like Batman #400 as a kid wasn't off-putting to me in any way, shape or form.
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Post by rberman on Jan 10, 2019 9:01:52 GMT -5
When I have asked some within the industry about it (e.g. via social media), I get the tired response, "A new number #1 brings in new readers." Great. But does it retain those readers? It's no good having 50,000 new readers pick up #1 and then not bother with #2, #3, #4, etc. I wish I could survey every new reader who has picked up a #1 and ask them if they kept buying. Otherwise, it's pointless. And high issue numbers certainly didn't attract or retain me. Picking up something like Batman #400 as a kid wasn't off-putting to me in any way, shape or form. I doubt that a new #1 brings in new readers. I suspect it brings in investors who are still clinging to the hope of an Action Comics #1 phenomenon. Opening the bag and reading it would defeat the purpose of buying it in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 9:22:03 GMT -5
You're probably right. And how depressing, eh?!
It's delusional, anyway, if anything is clinging to the hope of an Action Comics #1 phenomenon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 9:23:36 GMT -5
When I have asked some within the industry about it (e.g. via social media), I get the tired response, "A new number #1 brings in new readers." Great. But does it retain those readers? It's no good having 50,000 new readers pick up #1 and then not bother with #2, #3, #4, etc. I wish I could survey every new reader who has picked up a #1 and ask them if they kept buying. Otherwise, it's pointless. And high issue numbers certainly didn't attract or retain me. Picking up something like Batman #400 as a kid wasn't off-putting to me in any way, shape or form. People in the industry keep their jobs based on quarterly earnings reports, not on retention of readers. As long as the quarterly earnings reports look good enough for them to keep their jobs, they are satisfied, and the earnings reports make no distinction between people buying multiple copies of new #1s and variants and people buying issues #17 of a series. Their job is to move product, not build long-term readership. They are a business that is predicated on moving product. As long as the customer base buys more units of #1s than of #17s, they will produce more #1s than #17s. Again, comic fans get the comics their buying habits deserve. If you have a sales strategy to get consumers to buy more copies of #17 than #1s on a regular basis, maybe you can pitch it to them. Until then, there will continue to be more #1s than #17s because people's jobs rely on moving units and #1s move more units than #17s. Quality of story, retention or units etc. are irrelevant if units are not being sold. You don't focus on quality of life issues until survival is ensured because quality doesn't matter if you are dead. Business operates on the same principle. Until such a time as enough units are moving to ensure job survival, companies will do whatever they need to do to ensure economic survival. In the current market, #1s provide more of what is needed for survival than #17s do because consumers buy more of them. Until you change that basic equation, numbering practices are NOT going to change. If you want to change numbering practices, you have to change the market conditions which drove them to become what they are now. Treat the cause, not the symptoms. #1, variants, numbering schemes etc. are symptoms not causes. You can change them all you want but unless units moved for higher numbers increase to the level that #1s move, the fix will be abandoned when those who make the change lose their jobs and new folks are hired and come in with a mandate to make a quick fix to falling sales and look at what types of things increased unit sales-#1s, variants, etc. and put them back into play to get that quick fix. No business (and comics publishing i a business pure and simple) can implement a plan that has long term benefits without ensuring short term success as well because the people who implement the plan won't be around to see it through if the short term doesn't live up to expectations and new people will be put in place who will scrap the old plan for a new one. You have to get rid of any romantic notions about how comics operate and understand it all comes down to quarterly earnings reports and balance sheets. Not that this is a good thing, but it is the cold hard reality and any potential solution has to take that into account or it is doomed to failure. So if you want a different numbering scheme, how do you suggest they go about reforming the market and changing customer buying habits so that can become a viable option? -M addendum: -M
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 10:03:17 GMT -5
Perhaps they could discuss it with Rebellion, publishers of 2000 AD (current program is #2113) or DC Thomson, publishers of Commando (current issue, #5194). UK comics never felt the need to renumber, not often anyway.
I know it's a business. One would have to be a fool not to know that. I also know that any business is about short-term profit and quarterly reports.
I just feel they are being incredibly pedantic with this renumbering nonsense. Whatever the business reasons, I don't feel the average person would be put off by high numbers. I think my first Hulk comic was #324. I didn't worry about the previous 323 issues (I was familiar with the character via the 1982 cartoon, anyway). In a way, I felt quite enamoured with a publication that had 324 issues under its belt.
I know it is about quarterly reports and the like. And goodwill doesn't pay the bills. But they are eroding through a lot of goodwill, driving people away (at a time when they are unlikely to gain readers) and making it tedious at times. Good luck to anyone trying to find a specific Wolverine #1 on eBay or comiXology. Better take a packed lunch with you if you do that, you're likely to be on a laptop for quite a while. On the other hand, how long would it take to find The Incredible Hulk #324?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 10, 2019 10:56:45 GMT -5
Perhaps they could discuss it with Rebellion, publishers of 2000 AD (current program is #2113) or DC Thomson, publishers of Commando (current issue, #5194). UK comics never felt the need to renumber, not often anyway. I know it's a business. One would have to be a fool not to know that. I also know that any business is about short-term profit and quarterly reports. I just feel they are being incredibly pedantic with this renumbering nonsense. Whatever the business reasons, I don't feel the average person would be put off by high numbers. I think my first Hulk comic was #324. I didn't worry about the previous 323 issues (I was familiar with the character via the 1982 cartoon, anyway). In a way, I felt quite enamoured with a publication that had 324 issues under its belt. I know it is about quarterly reports and the like. And goodwill doesn't pay the bills. But they are eroding through a lot of goodwill, driving people away (at a time when they are unlikely to gain readers) and making it tedious at times. Good luck to anyone trying to find a specific Wolverine #1 on eBay or comiXology. Better take a packed lunch with you if you do that, you're likely to be on a laptop for quite a while. On the other hand, how long would it take to find The Incredible Hulk #324? Look at the bolded, underlined words. I'm not trying to be an asshole...but your feelings on business matters don't mean a thing. Barring some sort of empirical evidence this is the functional equivalent of "I feel that rainbows are made of fairy dust." The companies are making their decisions based on sales data and profits not "feelings." And honestly...what "Goodwill" are they eroding in your example in the last paragraph? When has any comic publisher given two shits about someone trying to find a back issue on a secondary market? That should be the last concern that should ever cross their mind. Admittedly you're mixing apples and oranges by citing to eBay and Comixology because those are two completely different things. That issue of Hulk #324 was purchased 33 years ago. Not only was the market for comics completely different then, as well as the distribution system, the demographics of the buyers was different as well. It would be impossible for me to care less at this point if comics have high number, low numbers or no numbers. Actually I'd kind of prefer they just have a month and year...it would short circuit a lot of the fan whinging. Good stories are sufficient.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 11:13:45 GMT -5
Yes, I confess that eBay and comiXology are apples and oranges. But it's also about Waterstones. The guy who TRIED to help me with the Darth Vader numbering admitted he and the store didn't have a clue. Which is fine. They are not there to cater to my whims. But I'll be honest, if they're going to keep renumbering Vader volumes, and I don't feel like doing "homework", then they can stick it as far as my purchases go. When a bookstore like Waterstones doesn't know where to stock the Vader volumes, we have a problem. The staff can hardly be spending their time doing "homework".
It is a personal bugbear, yes. I know they don't give a shit about me personally. But anything that can be easier should be easier. It's not the same as the comic industry, but I left the civil service because of the complicated, bureaucratic, nonsensical, waste of time shit that I had to do, some of which added no value, some of which made things worse.
I know they have bills to pay. And if I was the only one saying this, I'd concede it was a personal bugbear only, but I have lost count, on the likes of Facebook groups and forums, of people saying things like, "I don't know which is the next Black Panther volume to buy!" or, "Hang on, did I pre-order the wrong volume 3?" Again, the companies don't give a shit about that, I know.
I just think if something can be easier, and it's possible to do so, it should be.
Also, whilst Marvel Comics won't care about the likes of me mocking them (provided it doesn't affect the profits), it is a bit ridiculous that they reverted to legacy numbering a while back - and, correct me if I'm wrong, it didn't even last a year. Did it even last six months? Might not affect the bottom line, but it sure as hell comes across to this consumer as indecisive and opportunistic. I'm not entirely sure I'd want to eat in a restaurant that kept re-branding itself and "changing gears" every five minutes. Someone I know, who tends to only watch the MCU movies and doesn't read many comics, told me he thought Marvel was a joke when he learnt they reversed the legacy numbering policy.
What pays the bills pays the bills, I guess. Goodwill doesn't. Fan whinging (your words, not mine) might not necessarily affect sales.
Good stories are what matters the most. Immortal Hulk is one of my favourite titles right now. But whilst it won't affect sales and quarterly reports, it can never hurt for any company to think of goodwill.
I do feel, like many, that a month/year would be the most logical solution right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 14:44:14 GMT -5
Perhaps they could discuss it with Rebellion, publishers of 2000 AD (current program is #2113) or DC Thomson, publishers of Commando (current issue, #5194). UK comics never felt the need to renumber, not often anyway. I know it's a business. One would have to be a fool not to know that. I also know that any business is about short-term profit and quarterly reports. I just feel they are being incredibly pedantic with this renumbering nonsense. Whatever the business reasons, I don't feel the average person would be put off by high numbers. I think my first Hulk comic was #324. I didn't worry about the previous 323 issues (I was familiar with the character via the 1982 cartoon, anyway). In a way, I felt quite enamoured with a publication that had 324 issues under its belt. I know it is about quarterly reports and the like. And goodwill doesn't pay the bills. But they are eroding through a lot of goodwill, driving people away (at a time when they are unlikely to gain readers) and making it tedious at times. Good luck to anyone trying to find a specific Wolverine #1 on eBay or comiXology. Better take a packed lunch with you if you do that, you're likely to be on a laptop for quite a while. On the other hand, how long would it take to find The Incredible Hulk #324? One, the UK market is not the US market and weekly comics have not done well in the US market though DC has tried several times. So the market factors for the UK market are vastly different than the US market, so what Rebellion does has little bearing on US publishers for the US market. And here is the crux of the issue-in the US direct market since the ascendance of the direct market as the primary market for the sale of comics, titles lose and average of 3-4% of sales per issue after the third issue (it's higher between 1-3 where retailers are ordering before any issues hit the stands. That attrition rate runs across all titles, all publishers. While there are exceptions, it's pretty much the standard attrition rate. So a title that sells 50K units for issue 3, will sell about 48K for issue 4, 46.1K for issue 5, etc. ad infinitum until it falls below a publisher's cancellation threshold or until they do something to correct it-new creative team,new direction, cross-over, reboot/relaunch, go back to "legacy" numbering for a few months then relaunch again, etc. The longer a title runs, the less it sells per issue with very few exceptions (though there are exceptions, books that have gained readership like Walking Dead but usually the exceptions have outside forces affecting sales to counter the standard attrition rate). That is down the the buying habits of the customer base and is borne out in sales data since the 90s. Unless and until you correct that kind of attrition rate high numbering becomes untenable in the current marketplace. Despite what fans say about wanting high numbers, they do something different because they buy more of lower numbers and #1s than they do of high numbers, and their wallets speak louder than their internet postings. Find a way to change the attrition pattern and high numbers would be more tenable in the market, but until you do, calling for them is just empty words. -M
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Post by rberman on Jan 10, 2019 15:16:58 GMT -5
Also, the renumberings sometimes take place under the wing of a rock star artist and/or writer with demonstrated sales appeal. But then they move on to another book, and their fans follow, and so sales drop under whoever replaces them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 15:40:31 GMT -5
Also, the renumberings sometimes take place under the wing of a rock star artist and/or writer with demonstrated sales appeal. But then they move on to another book, and their fans follow, and so sales drop under whoever replaces them. Well that's just part of the direct market currently being essentially a zero sum game. A gain on one title is matched by a loss on other titles as customers flock to the "ooh new and shiny" book but don't have a budget to add books without cutting somewhere else. This leads to the big publishers worried about who has the biggest piece of the existing pie and re-slicing the pie every few months with launches of new #1s, events or variants rather than looking for ways to grow the pie, because growing the pie requires investment (and a corporate owner willing to make such an investment) and a customer base willing to change its buying habits, and neither of those currently exist in the market. So it remains a zero sum game. That said, I'l give DC a few points for trying recently-the development of the Ink and Zoom lines to court young readers outside the direct market, the idea behind the Black Label line (rather than its execution) in an attempt to produce books that could become evergreen sellers in the book trade rather new releases with 2 week windows of sales, putting marketing money behind the New Age of Heroes launch complete with TV spots, and yet none of that moved the needle in the direct market customer base. New Age of Heroes flopped hard in the direct market, Black Label got derailed by the batwang reaction and Ink and Zoom releases are just now hitting the market way too long after they were announced at the national librarians convention so any anticipation for them fizzled because they weren't ready to reach the marketplace to capitalize on the buzz the announcement created. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 14:35:27 GMT -5
Marvel UK's titles had a habit of changing their names, but keeping the numbering. Spider-Man Comics Weekly, which I began in 1973, ran for an eerie 666 issues. It changed its name many times (e.g. becoming Super Spider-Man TV Comic at one point). So it had high numbers under its belt. At one point, it became a joint Spidey/Hulk comic. Look at the cover for the 376th issue: I think that's very clever, how they almost did a stealth renumbering. It retained the original numbering - and 376 is impressive - but has the words "1st Great New Look Issue". So whilst not a reboot/renumbering as such, there's something about those words that appears to be inviting new readers to jump on board. Or invite lapsed readers back. Maybe.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,870
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Post by shaxper on Jan 15, 2019 14:51:06 GMT -5
FWIW I used to have a Batman obsession. I owned every issue from #110 up. Didn't matter if I hated the creative team; I continued to buy the book. I knew it was ridiculous, but I didn't really feel like I could stop. Then they reset the series to #1. I cancelled my pull after the first issue and have never looked back.
On the one hand, I agree that renumbering is a business decision and that is where the market is at right now.
On the other, I absolutely agree that larger numbers implied a small part of a greater legacy. I used to truly believe Batman#457 was 1/457th of a continuous, ongoing saga (which, of course, wasn't actually true -- but the illusion was appealing).
So I personally pulled up my stakes and walked out on the modern comic book industry. I will still pick up an odd book or two based upon recommendations or content, but the age of countless #1 issues is an absolute turn-off for me, suggesting no sense of permanence/legacy, and so the companies that do this are no longer receiving my money.
And really, renumbering is indicative of a larger phenomenon where past legacy really doesn't matter at all. Everything restarts with a new creative team. You can keep restarting at #1 because what happened in the previous volume won't matter in a year's time, and what happens in the current volume won't matter in two. It's a world of disposable stories and disposable runs, and that flies in the face of everything I find magical about comic books.
To quote myself from a long while back:
So the comic industry has lost me. Maybe that doesn't really matter to them, but I think that's the true crux of this discussion: if you don't like it, you don't buy it. If enough people do that, the renumberings will cease to be profitable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 14:54:47 GMT -5
...but the age of countless #1 issues is an absolute turn-off for me, suggesting no sense of permanence/legacy, and so the companies that do this are no longer receiving my money. And really, renumbering is indicative of a larger phenomenon where past legacy really doesn't matter at all. Everything restarts with a new creative team. You can keep restarting at #1 because what happened in the previous volume won't matter in a year's time, and what happens in the current volume won't matter in two. It's a world of disposable stories and disposable runs, and that flies in the face of everything I find magical about comic books.Very true! You put it well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 14:55:51 GMT -5
Marvel tried something like that a few years back, as part of their Marvel Now initiative, when a series had the start of a new story arc or a new creative team, they kept the numbering but put a big #1 on the cover to indicate a fresh start or jumping on point, and it failed miserably int he marketplace. They got a small sales bump as retailers ordered more, but end customers did not buy in and it pissed off a lot of retailers who cut Marvel orders across the board and ended up a net loss in sales for Marvel. Here's an example of one of those covers... It's issue 24, but with the big #1 marketing trade dress. -M
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