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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 5, 2019 14:46:33 GMT -5
You will put in the work for something that you think is worth the trouble. The Comic industry is at its lowest sale per unit in its history. In the 80's , almost all the Marvel books were selling 100K or over. Not now. print runs were over 100K, actual sales were often less, and unsold copies were mostly returnable still. And those sales were spread over the direct and mass market, not just in the direct (though direct had the higher percentage of sales and mass only had returnability, so who knows how many of those sold in direct were reaching final customers and not sitting in back issue bins of comic shops). Let's take off the rose colored nostalgia glasses when looking a tthe past and see how it was not how we think we remember it was. -M If you look at it in a relative sense, then they are in even worse shape now.Anyway you look at it, more units were sold back then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 14:50:15 GMT -5
print runs were over 100K, actual sales were often less, and unsold copies were mostly returnable still. And those sales were spread over the direct and mass market, not just in the direct (though direct had the higher percentage of sales and mass only had returnability, so who knows how many of those sold in direct were reaching final customers and not sitting in back issue bins of comic shops). Let's take off the rose colored nostalgia glasses when looking a tthe past and see how it was not how we think we remember it was. -M If you look at it in a relative sense, then they are in even worse shape now.Anyway you look at it, more units were sold back then. More units sure, but at a smaller margin and producing less revenue per unit. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 15:47:46 GMT -5
Not a valid comparison at all. How so? You are looking for a single installment within a serialized series? What's different? -M Read my earlier posts. I don't wish to repeat myself.
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Post by rberman on Jan 5, 2019 15:58:29 GMT -5
Most casual viewers looking to watch an unfamiliar TV show are not looking for a particular episode; the main draw will probably be the characters more generally. With any modern show, it will be natural to start with the first episode, or the first episode of the earliest available series, or the first episode of the current series. TV shows generally are structured to make those natural starting points these days.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 16:31:39 GMT -5
Most casual viewers looking to watch an unfamiliar TV show are not looking for a particular episode; the main draw will probably be the characters more generally. With any modern show, it will be natural to start with the first episode, or the first episode of the earliest available series, or the first episode of the current series. TV shows generally are structured to make those natural starting points these days. Exactly, hence why it was not a valid comparison. There isn't the "homework" involved, not like working out which Darth Vader volume to buy. I know the episode titles of any TV shows I am interested in, plus modern TV is about starting at the beginning. For shows that are casual, and don't follow an arc, one can easily find an episode. I am not interested in comparing apples and oranges.
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Post by earl on Jan 5, 2019 16:37:58 GMT -5
The funny thing about the renumbering when I got back into reading comics 13-14 years ago was that there was issues of titles that did not exist in the old days like Thor #1, since it's 'classic' numbering was based off Journey Into Mystery.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 18:16:03 GMT -5
I don't mind high issue numbers.
But I despise decimal numbering...issues like 17.1, 17.2, 17.3 which are suddenly shoehorned between 17 and 18.
It happened with some of the Amazing Spidey books and I know I'm missing something, somewhere.
Why did they do that?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 9, 2019 0:42:26 GMT -5
Not a valid comparison at all. You will put in the work for something that you think is worth the trouble. The Comic industry is at its lowest sale per unit in its history. In the 80's , almost all the Marvel books were selling 100K or over. Not now. And every barrier to entry drives away some percentage of your customer base. That's just business 101. And, magically, when you put up a plethora of barriers to entry you end up with the lowest sales of all time? Gosh! Marvel's revenue through comic shops is clearly much less than it was a few years ago, unless the diamond numbers are completely fabricated. Everyone who works in comics retail seems to get this. “I just think people are easily looking at those number one’s as jumping off points as opposed to jumping on points,” said Hendrick. “I can’t really blame them.”
An, MRP, are you seriously arguing that the current system of comics numbering and production is a good thing? That customers should take their free time to do research in order to read about Spider-man punching the Green Goblin? I can not imagine that is what you are arguing, yet that is for sure what it looks like you are arguing. IS that what you are arguing? Is this something you want to keep arguing? I am perplexed.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 9, 2019 0:46:25 GMT -5
I don't mind high issue numbers.
But I despise decimal numbering...issues like 17.1, 17.2, 17.3 which are suddenly shoehorned between 17 and 18.
It happened with some of the Amazing Spidey books and I know I'm missing something, somewhere.
Why did they do that? Oh, it got worse than that. I swear they were using unreal numbers, like 17.X. This is one of those things where, when the human race is extinct and the giant mutant groundhogs have taken over, they will look at how we numbered our comics and say "Yeah, they probably deserved it."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 2:07:55 GMT -5
You will put in the work for something that you think is worth the trouble. The Comic industry is at its lowest sale per unit in its history. In the 80's , almost all the Marvel books were selling 100K or over. Not now. And every barrier to entry drives away some percentage of your customer base. That's just business 101. And, magically, when you put up a plethora of barriers to entry you end up with the lowest sales of all time? Gosh! Marvel's revenue through comic shops is clearly much less than it was a few years ago, unless the diamond numbers are completely fabricated. Everyone who works in comics retail seems to get this. “I just think people are easily looking at those number one’s as jumping off points as opposed to jumping on points,” said Hendrick. “I can’t really blame them.”
An, MRP, are you seriously arguing that the current system of comics numbering and production is a good thing? That customers should take their free time to do research in order to read about Spider-man punching the Green Goblin? I can not imagine that is what you are arguing, yet that is for sure what it looks like you are arguing. IS that what you are arguing? Is this something you want to keep arguing? I am perplexed. I am not saying it's a good thing. I am saying it is irrelevant. It's like complaining about the sting of pulling off the band aid when the wound it was covering is still bleeding out. It simply is what it is, and even if they had kept the old numbering system, the industry would be in the same place as it is now. The monthly periodical format, no matter how it is numbered, has been left behind by the marketplace for reasons other than the trade dress or issue tracking system being used. Arguing about numbering is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. IT was the big direct market publishers reacting tot he buying habits of the direct market customer base without looking critically why sales were slumping and why new customers were not replacing those lost by natural attrition and deciding the best course of action is to double down on their existing customer base and trying to milk as much revenue from them as they could through new #1s, events, variants, and increased frequency of shipping issues rather than looking at why the audience and consumer base for monthly periodicals was shrinking while super-hero audiences in other formats and mediums were exploding. I'm saying changes in numbering is not the reason the industry is in such poor shape, it is a symptom of the things that ail the industry and the regressive thinking that has led it to this position. The industry made it's bed by catering to hardcore fanboy customers and their fetishization of certain types of products and is now laying in it. They aliented and withdrew formt he mass audience, and now, when they desperately need an influx of new customers, they do not have a format for their product or a method of delivering content that appeals to an audience that is hungry for super-hero stories because they are clinging to dinosaur notions of formatting and types of content. I do not think comics will fail or disappear, or that Marvel and DC will cease operations under their corporate ownership, but I do think the direct market can fade away to irrelevance as the newsstand market did previously and that comics will have to find a new format and market for their products to reach audiences. The market needs to evolve as it has always done. The direct market is simply a phase in the evolution of the market for comics, not its final or ultimate form. It has served its purpose, but it needs to continue to evolve to adapt to a changing marketplace and a changing audience. How comics are numbered is an insignificant matter in that conversation and blaming it for the loss of audience is only perpetuating the short-sighted viewpoints that have led to the industry reaching this point. The comic industry needs to look forward and see where the market is going to find its path to growth, not look back at what was successful decades past when nothing in the marketplace is the way it was when those methods were successful. So no, I don't think the current numbering system is good, I don't think continuing to publish serialized stories in a periodical format that has no place in the current mass market and little appeal to customers in that market no matter how it is numbered is a good thing. When your subject matter is the hottest ticket in mass pop culture, but your product holds zero appeal to that market, you need to change your product to survive, not just how it is tracked in the trade dress (i.e. numbering, volumes, etc.). But many of the decision makers at the publishers, and most of the customer base, long for a time that never existed except in the rose colored memories of nostalgia and want to blame changing things form how they were for the problems facing the current industry instead of understanding that the problem is that things haven't changed enough. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 6:01:15 GMT -5
Regarding barriers, that is the point I was making in the various posts within this thread.
I enjoyed the Aquaman movie. I have read little of Black Manta and Ocean Master. Now I want to read more of them. I know what to look for and where. I look forward to reading some Black Manta and Ocean Master tales.
As a long-time fan, I wonder, could there be people experiencing Aquaman for the first time - and who also want to track down his exploits in comic form?
If it is a person who has ONLY seen the films, but who now wants to check out the comics, that should be as easy as possible. So, let's imagine they go into their LCS and ask for an Aquaman trade featuring Black Manta and/or Ocean Master. And let's imagine they are given one. And that they enjoy it. But now imagine that they try and follow it but the confusion discussed in this topic leads to them dropping the books.
I'm not saying that would happen (or is happening with Aquaman trades), just that they could happen.
"Hmmm, I enjoyed that last Aquaman trade - Volume 3 - but what's the next one? I've lost track of the volume numbers. Hang on, why is there another Volume 1? Does it tie in to the last volume I read?"
Hypothetical (possibly), but not impossible. I've experienced it. I've had casual readers online asking me for advice on numbering. It's a barrier the industry could and should do without.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 9, 2019 10:48:39 GMT -5
First off, history has shown us that movies have virtually no effect on comics sales. They certainly have no effect on comic shop sales.
The more likely scenario is that movie-goer either runs into Barnes & Noble or...much more likely...pulls up Amazon to look for an Aquaman book. At that point, they may well be confused. But they are likely, if they buy at all, to just pick up whatever the best-seller is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 15:54:35 GMT -5
If publishers wanted to capitalize on movies to generate sales, they would be well served to have a kiosk that sells trades or have them available at the concession stand in the theatres themselves. Or have some kind of pop up store in the theatre on the first few weeks of a movie's release (DC has done some larger scale pop up stores in places like the National Mall in Washington DC and at South by Southwest Festival last year, and Valiant paid retailers to have booths at Lolopalooza dates a few years back to sell Valiant books, but nothing coordinated with releases in other media). But a movie goer is highly unlikely to take the time to research (many here have said they don't want to take time to do any research and it is a barrier so having to research where you can buy stuff is a huge barrier that precedes any other possible barrier) where they could find comics to buy, take the time to drive there, and then find, the retailer probably doesn't have much available in stock because he buys everything on a returnable basis and 80% of his buy in is done at a volume to sell through in the first week after its release so he can afford to pay the next Diamond shipment because it is non-returnable and 90% of his customer traffic is regulars who only but the current week's releases.
I will give DC this much-their Wal Mart exclusive 100 page giants are in a place where people can get them, offer a lot of content for the $5 price tag (3 reprinted comics and 1 12 page original comic) and are filled with house ads that basically say if you like X feature in this book, you can find more in these trades...showing a picture of the first volume of both the new 52 version and the rebirth volume and listing future volumes in each series by title and providing the Comic Shop Locator info in the ad as an option (as well as suggesting online booksellers without mentioning names) as ways to find the books. It's baby steps and very likely far too little far too late, but it is the kind of thing the industry should have been doing to bring in new generations of readers long, long ago. They've lost at least 2, and by now possibly 3 generations of potential new readers by not being readily available to them when they were young readers, which is why sales are historically low now as there has not been a flow of new customers to replace the attrition of old customers that has always been there.
The industry made a decision to leave behind the inefficient newsstand that didn't want them because of low profitability on sales of comics and double down on the guaranteed revenue of the direct market and retailers and customers who did. But it was a decision that was short sighted. Customers aren't leaving comics now at a significantly higher rate then they did in the Silver Age or Bronze Age or in the 90s, but they are coming in at a significantly lower rate than they did in those eras because there is no infrastructure in place any longer for people to actually discover comic books themselves unless they overcame the barriers of knowing where to find them and were able to get there (remember comic shops do not exist in large swaths of the country so there are large areas, typically rural, where kids have zero chance to discover comics at all, and even in places where the do exist, you have to be looking for comics to discover them. So customer attrition stayed fairly constant while customer influx declined, because the direct market provided no mechanism to bring in new readers. And now 25-30 years on, we are seeing the effects of some old customers leaving for 30 years without a steady supply of new customers to replace them that had existed in the comic marketplace until they went into the direct market ghetto. The result is the historically low sale of units we see now, not something that occurred overnight or because of reboots, numbering issues, variant covers, etc. but something that was an unintended consequence (but not unpredictable if one had looked at at actual sales patterns of customer attrition) of the creation of direct market exclusivity and the focus on the existing customer base of hardcore comic fans.
Yes, there are barriers to new readers getting into comics. Numbering however, doesn't even make the list of top 25 barriers. And changing numbering to satisfy the preferences of hardcore fans is going to do jack-all to remedy the barriers that have kept 2-3 generations of new readers form buying into comics. Comics are actually in an amazing growth period right now. The big book publishers are adding graphic novel imprints and experiencing rapid sales growth in the book market selling those graphic novels. What's not seeing any growth are direct market super-hero comics sold in serialized periodical or even serialized book format (whether older material or current), even when those books are available in the mass market. Some super-hero books have become evergreen sellers in the mass market and have enjoyed good and steady sales for years. They tend to be standalone stories (Watchmen, Dark Knight, Batman Year One) or series with a distinct beginning, middle and END (Sandman, Preacher) or working towards a distinct end (Saga, Walking Dead) rather than never-ending stories of any type no matter how formatted, packaged, numbered or sold.
Looking at numbering in the face of all the other barriers and market forces working against the way direct market publishers try to sell their products to customers that have to be solved before numbering even becomes a barrier to sales is quite frankly unproductive. The problem is that for the types of changes to be made that will solve some of the issues requires an infrastructure that the direct market doesn't provide and and doesn't currently exist, and neither Disney nor Warner wants to make the kind of capital investment needed to create such an infrastructure (mostly likely because they don't see enough future revenue resulting form print sales and Disney at least sees an out of licensing material out to other publishers and focusing on being a content creator rather than a publisher). I mean if Disney were serious about making a dent into the mass market with their Marvel books-why aren't Marvel Comics available for sale in Disney stores or the gift/souvenir shops at their resorts and hotels?-other Marvel products are, including kids and young reader prose books but not actual Marvel Comics or trades).
So number them any way you want, it won't make a damn bit of difference to sales long term unless you solve all the other problems that act as barriers to sales and attracting new readers.
-M
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Post by rberman on Jan 9, 2019 16:48:12 GMT -5
I mean if Disney were serious about making a dent into the mass market with their Marvel books-why aren't Marvel Comics available for sale in Disney stores or the gift/souvenir shops at their resorts and hotels?-other Marvel products are, including kids and young reader prose books but not actual Marvel Comics or trades). Everything you said in your post is fundamentally correct, and I would add that simply being on a media that involves turning pages pushes against strong trends in Western culture over the last 20-40 years and is akin to wondering what we can do to save the market in wax cylinder recordings. Though Disney clearly has no major interest in promoting Marvel comics as a form of media consumption, they do have racks of Star Wars related comic books at the Star Wars attractions of both Disneyland and Disney World. Also, at Universal Studios' Islands of Adventure theme park in Orlando, the Marvel Comics section of the park has a store with a wall of current unbagged Marvel floppies and trade paperbacks, curling in the Florida humidity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 17:09:20 GMT -5
I'm not saying high issue numbers are the only barrier, merely that they are one barrier. And any barriers that one can get rid of can never be a bad thing, surely?
I appreciate the fact that, as mrp stated, large swaths of the country don't have a comic store. The UK is small compared to the US, but even here, there are towns which would be many, many miles from a comic store such as Forbidden Planet. And without new readers spontaneously discovering a Superman or Spider-Man book, it does seem grim.
But any barriers that could be got rid of should be got rid of, in my opinion.
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