|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 16:19:59 GMT -5
Yes, but the bean counters seem more prevalent now. Only because everything that used to be behind the curtain is out in the open with current technology. It's not that they are more in control, we just see how much influence they have (and always had) now. -M
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 16:23:06 GMT -5
That is true, but then again, there are many facets to consider. Would there have been a bean-counting obsession with renumbering many decades ago, for example?
That seems like a modern phenomena.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 16:23:35 GMT -5
I honestly cannot name how many Marvel trades I've passed up (even at $5 a pop), because I have not idea where they fit in continuity or what order they should be read in. this most frequently happens with X-Men family books, that I'd be happy to pick up trades of, but can never tell what is what, and there is so much re-numbering from #1 and relaunching, that I just gave up in disgust. also has happened with Avengers. I saw this just after reading your post... -M
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 16:25:31 GMT -5
That is true, but then again, there are many facets to consider. Would there have been a bean-counting obsession with renumbering many decades ago, for example? That seems like a modern phenomena. Only because in past decades mail subsciptions were a bigger portion of the sales and postal regulations in the US worked against low numbered titles. You couldn't qualify for cheaper shipping unless you had a certain number of issues of a periodical published, which is why publishers often used old title numbering to start new series. It was still a "bean counter" decision, but the market was different as to what decision they made. -M PS the collector market also hadn't yet been established and their fetishization of #1 issues, that started int he 70s. Look at some of the ads in Bronze Age comics selling comics, things like Heroes World selling sets of #1 issues and marketing them as collector's items. Once sales patterns conformed to the marketing, #1 issues became much more prevalent. Its bean counters reacitng to customer buying patterns. Again comics fans get the comics their buying patterns deserve.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 23, 2018 19:17:24 GMT -5
It’s too bad that people can’t carry tiny computers in their pockets where that could look up what books are collected in what trades.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 19:27:54 GMT -5
It’s too bad that people can’t carry tiny computers in their pockets where that could look up what books are collected in what trades. it's too bad some people judge others who don't have the time/energy/determination to bother looking up something that SHOULD not be complicated.
my phone is to make calls, and if Marvel doesn't want my money? fine with me.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 19:35:48 GMT -5
That's a patronising view, to be honest. I'm glad Bert sees my point of view, though.
I mentioned "homework". Yes, one can check up trades. But, and I'm not the only one who says this, "homework" can be tedious. People want to be able to grab a copy of The Walking Dead. When I resume reading it, I know Vol. 15 is the one I'll be picking up. Easy! No "homework" required.
Life can be busy. My job can be busy. More power to those with the time to do such "homework", but I don't always have the time, nor the inclination. Image Comics makes it easy for me to jump back on board with something like The Walking Dead. Marvel Comics does not.
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Dec 23, 2018 19:47:11 GMT -5
Right. It's not that educated, determined shoppers can't figure out how all the myriad TPB interface with each other. It's that every additional obstacle between the shelf and the cash register drops buyers and results in lower sales. Marvel is re-releasing old work in an "Epic Collection" line which uses the Epic Comics logo for material that was published by Marvel Comics. Confusing! And then they are skipping broad sections. Check out this confusing library of current (and near future) titles: DC on the other hand lets me have:
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Dec 23, 2018 20:05:02 GMT -5
I do research on things that I want to know about( where TPB's fit in continuity) but maybe I'm just an ultra geek with too much time on his hands. I don't really want to have to do homework for anything. Back in the day, comics had footnotes referring to previous events and issue numbers just in case you wanted to buy a back issue. It would be nice if we could go back to that time.
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Dec 23, 2018 20:09:44 GMT -5
Right. It's not that educated, determined shoppers can't figure out how all the myriad TPB interface with each other. It's that every additional obstacle between the shelf and the cash register drops buyers and results in lower sales. Marvel is re-releasing old work in an "Epic Collection" line which uses the Epic Comics logo for material that was published by Marvel Comics. Confusing! And then they are skipping broad sections. Check out this confusing library of current (and near future) titles: And the titles attached to the epic books are random titles. I don't think the original stories had those titles. In the FF Epic book " All in the family" I have no clue what issues they are, And I have the entire run in one form or another.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 20:21:16 GMT -5
Rberman's post sums up the difference between DC and Marvel. I'd buy those DC trades, you know!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 21:27:03 GMT -5
That's a patronising view, to be honest. I'm glad Bert sees my point of view, though. I mentioned "homework". Yes, one can check up trades. But, and I'm not the only one who says this, "homework" can be tedious. People want to be able to grab a copy of The Walking Dead. When I resume reading it, I know Vol. 15 is the one I'll be picking up. Easy! No "homework" required. Life can be busy. My job can be busy. More power to those with the time to do such "homework", but I don't always have the time, nor the inclination. Image Comics makes it easy for me to jump back on board with something like The Walking Dead. Marvel Comics does not. And which series has increased it's numbers when most series have decreasing numbers. The Walking Dead. Maybe Kirkman does know what fans want long term rather than short term sales. And he has made it easy for readers to catch up without doing "homework".
Again I understand the points you are making. And totally agree with them.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 21:33:27 GMT -5
MRP will be along any minute with his lecture about how we as consumers cause the constant renumbering by buying #1s (Which is 100% true). @taxidriver1980 you were warned....
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 23:20:28 GMT -5
Right. It's not that educated, determined shoppers can't figure out how all the myriad TPB interface with each other. It's that every additional obstacle between the shelf and the cash register drops buyers and results in lower sales. Marvel is re-releasing old work in an "Epic Collection" line which uses the Epic Comics logo for material that was published by Marvel Comics. Confusing! And then they are skipping broad sections. Check out this confusing library of current (and near future) titles: You know what potential customers like even less than doing homework? Trying to find a a niche specialty shop that carries a product they don't even know they want yet and will never see unless they make that special trip, oh and even if they manage to find and drive to such a shop, chances are they will be told you would have had to special order it three months before it was released to get a copy. But yeah, numbering is why new customers aren't buying in to comics. And comic fans (lapsed or current), who will track 80 years of stories to find the exact panel that explains why hype man's uniform was green in this story rather than blue without it just being a colorist error bit explaining it's narrative purpose or can name 112 different types of kryptonite and what they do then say they don't like to do homework to be able to read new comics? I find that a bit surreal. The problem isn't numbering or homework, the simple core of the problem is the industry going all in on the direct market and the hardcore fan customer base 30+ years ago without a feeder mechanism to continue to make comics available to new readers and now that they've gone 2+ generations without bringing in new readers to replenish their customer base while the hardcore base has aged out, died off, checked out because of career, kids, or other real life things becoming higher priority, and other matters of natural attrition to a fanbase, they no longer have the infrastructure in place or the catalog of material or formats that can reach and appeal to new customers in the current 21st century marketplace and there isn't a large enough remnant of the hardcore customer base to make any growth possible. They aren't reaching new potential customers for numbering to be an obstacle. They may be alienating existing customers, but there aren't enough existing customers for any kind of sustainable growth, it's now all about getting a larger slice of a shrinking pie and flooding the market with as much product of any quality to milk as much revenue as you can from the existing customer base. And there isn't enough of a viable future in print for them to make the kind of capital investment necessary to creating the new type infrastructure needed to reach new customer sand the markets they exist in. Comics in general are undergoing a huge surge in sales to new customers, just not direct market comics. Things like Dog Boy, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, the Raina Telgmeier books are seeing massive sales and sustainable growth, but they rarely sell in comic shops, they sell at Target, Wal*Mart, grocery stores, Amazon, etc. and they sell because they are in a format that appeals to modern readers, in a market that is accessible to them, priced so they are in the impulse buy sticker price range, and provide a complete entertainment experience for the reader without having to do anything else by buy and read the book. Comics are a niche product sold in dinosaur formats, in retail ghettos where new customers don't go unless they are already regular comics purchasers and which do not exist at all in large areas of the United States (approximately 5000 retail Diamond accounts spread out over 50 states, and not evenly spread out either-there are 23 Diamond retail accounts within a 45 minute drive of me all within 2 metropolitan areas within 1 state, meaning there are other areas with zero retail accounts present to sell to potential customers). Numbering is not the reason they are not selling to new or lapsed customers. It's not even in the top 100 obstacles for achieving sales growth the industry is facing. It's a byproduct of abandoning the mass market to appeal to the hardcore fanboy customer base for sure, but fixing numbering issues wouldn't even produce a register-able uptick in sales for the industry because all those potential customers who never see comics now, would never see comics with the so called numbering issues fixed. And you can't sell product to customers who never see it no matter how it's numbered. -M
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Dec 24, 2018 0:27:54 GMT -5
There's no question that accessibility is key. When the product is in front of the faces of potential consumers often, they have the opportunity to walk down the stages of Prochaska's Transtheoretical Model of change. This was something I noticed during my last trip to Disney World. There's like fifty different oportunities to say "yes" or "no" to buying a themed T-shirt between the time you park your car and the time you board your first ride. Similarly, having comic book spinner racks in every grocery story, pharmacy, and gas station in America (I never lived in an urban center with newstands, but there too, when they were a thing) made a difference. But we've talked before about the fall of print media, especially periodicals, in America.
Another thing that Dog Man has that Spider-man and Batman lack is simplicity. There's only what, five or six books in the Dog Man series? Continuity is negligible between them, let alone having to worry that between Dogman #3 and #4, you'd better seek out Wimpy Kid #8. And Dog Man has no stories whose plots turn on some detail from a volume published thirty years ago. Yet even such negligible continuity as Dog Man has is made accessible: Dog Man and Cat Kid (2018) begins with an eight page recap of the series' basic conceits, which they can afford to do in a 250 page story. It's not trying to stick with the dinosaur format of the monthly serial. Novels used to be serialized also, but that market shifted to publishing the whole book in just a few (preferably just one) volumes, because it makes so much more sense, especially with modern decompression.
Is there anyone here who prefers to read a six issue arc in 22 page installments a month apart? When you discover a new-to-you series that has many issues already, do you discipline yourself to read only one a month to simulate the original publication experience? Or do you rather consider the publication history a matter of regrettable necessity rather than an integral part of the subsequent reading experience?
The same dynamic has come to television as well in the age of streaming media. When did the age of the TV mini-series begin? I remember early 80s TV events like Masada, The Blue and the Grey, The Thorn Birds, etc. which split the difference between films (a complete story told in two hours) and a season of TV (mostly stand-alone episodes dribbled out a week at a time, 22 weeks of the year). They were longer than an episode or a movie but completed the viewing experience within one week, minimizing both the need for and the acceptance of repetition for the sake of new viewers. Now streaming services drop entire (but much shorter) seasons all at once.
Meanwhile, as magazines composed of seperate articles migrate to the web, they are no longer wedded to a weekly or monthly publication cycle in a different sense; they make a point of having new content every day or even every hour to draw repeat visits. There are plenty of web comic strips out there taking advantage of this format, which never went away from daily newspapers, though the circulation of those is way down too.
|
|