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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2018 11:42:52 GMT -5
However, things like the Enigma machine being recovered by an American crew in the film U- 571 are the kind of invention that kill a historical film for me. Or Marcus Aurelius being murdered by Commodus in Gladiator. I just go “WAIIIIIIT A MINUTE, THAT’S NOT WHAT HAPPENED AT ALL” and have a hard time taking the rest of the story seriously. Same here, and that really BOTHERED ME in a big way and that's KILLED the movie right there and that's why I haven't seen U-571 after it was released in 2000. Me and my buddies was talking about the Enigma machine and we all were shocked seeing the inaccuracies of it and all that. The Gladiator movie regarding Marcus Aurelius -- my dear friend and I were talking about it after the movie and it's hits us LIKE A TON OF BRICKS and he wasn't murdered at all. I'm a history bluff myself ... and these things makes me ILL when these things happen. I wished FILMMAKERS do a better job researching the movie before they spend MILLIONS making the darn film for the whole world ... including two and more HISTORY BLUFFS here in this forum. CASE CLOSED!
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 19, 2018 23:15:01 GMT -5
I’d rather have a historical film or biopic be as authentic as possible, but as long as they’re not presented as documentaries I’m quite willing to overlook storytelling decisions that twist facts a little or that rely on a few invented events... provided that the end result still reflects what really happened. The dialog between King George VI and his elocution coach in The King’s Speech, for example, can be totally made up for all I care.However, things like the Enigma machine being recovered by an American crew in the film U- 571 are the kind of invention that kill a historical film for me. Or Marcus Aurelius being murdered by Commodus in Gladiator. I just go “WAIIIIIIT A MINUTE, THAT’S NOT WHAT HAPPENED AT ALL” and have a hard time taking the rest of the story seriously.I am more lenient for historical films set in semi-legendary times... In the TV series Vikings, for example, we are meant to accept that two hundred years of history occurred during one generation, with the same people doing pretty much everything we heard about. I give the series a pass because while it’s hardly set in as obscure an era as that of King Arthur, there is still a lot of uncertainty aboutnwhat really happened and what is just folklore. In such a case, I will be content with verisimilitude if real accuracy is not possible. Agree on the dialogue, RR, but with one caveat... that it captures the essence of their relationship and it is not a reinvention of it. By happenstance, I caught a bit of The King's Speech the other night after having seen it when it came out, and those scenes seemed real. But... I know nothing more about the subject (no pun intended) than the movie gave me. What you're describing in your second paragraph is what quickly put me off a series that was highly recommended to me: The Queen. It quickly became clear that each episode was structured to turn E2 into the not-so-subtle hero of an array of pivotal events in British and world history. Once my BS-detector went off, I looked up some of the events depicted and realized that the writers were straining mightily, as the cliche goes, to retro-fit fact into historical fiction. One good example: the "Killer Fog" that afflicted London during WW2. I just want to tell these writers to either write a work of fiction (a la Foyle's War), with invented characters encountering the problems and crises of a particular time, or tell the real story compellingly enough to make the truth interesting. Both of those may be more difficult to accomplish, however. I'm also with you that it's easier to accept the combining of characters, the compression of time and place, and invented or inferred dialogue in stories set a comfortable distance from our time. Full disclosure, though: I love Shakespeare's history plays, and he never let a few hundred facts get in the way of a ripping yarn.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 20, 2018 0:01:51 GMT -5
I’d rather have a historical film or biopic be as authentic as possible, but as long as they’re not presented as documentaries I’m quite willing to overlook storytelling decisions that twist facts a little or that rely on a few invented events... provided that the end result still reflects what really happened. The dialog between King George VI and his elocution coach in The King’s Speech, for example, can be totally made up for all I care. However, things like the Enigma machine being recovered by an American crew in the film U- 571 are the kind of invention that kill a historical film for me. Or Marcus Aurelius being murdered by Commodus in Gladiator. I just go “WAIIIIIIT A MINUTE, THAT’S NOT WHAT HAPPENED AT ALL” and have a hard time taking the rest of the story seriously. I am more lenient for historical films set in semi-legendary times... In the TV series Vikings, for example, we are meant to accept that two hundred years of history occurred during one generation, with the same people doing pretty much everything we heard about. I give the series a pass because while it’s hardly set in as obscure an era as that of King Arthur, there is still a lot of uncertainty aboutnwhat really happened and what is just folklore. In such a case, I will be content with verisimilitude if real accuracy is not possible. That's interesting, see I LOVED Gladiator.. I never viewed it as any sort of history, just a cool movie set in Ancient Rome.. I never cared about the accuracy, since that wasn't the point. Same with Vikings... sure, I was aware the character were real people, but I was treating it like King Arthur.. a legend semi-based on the truth. I feel like that's totally different from a story from a (relatively) modern event where the exact details are well known and documented that are simply changed for dramatic effect.
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Post by spoon on Nov 23, 2018 21:15:16 GMT -5
As to the general question, I wouldn't historical inaccuracies so much if I knew people wouldn't assume accuracy and would do their research. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people assume movies based on true stories are accurate and shape their views based on them.
Sometimes the changes from reality shape a narrative. I really enjoy Bonnie and Clyde as a work of art. To some extent, the protagonists are misfits searching for meaning. But they are also portrayed as fighting against "the man" in robbing banks that kicking people out of their homes and farms. But apparently, the targets of their robberies were mostly small stores and gas stations. In other words, they were mostly victimizing small mom and pop operations, not powerful financial institutions. I think it's a great film, but part of it's greatness comes from ignoring the reality of who Bonnie and Clyde were.
I think the propaganda in inaccurate films can shape public opinion in damaging ways. Gone With the Wind is one of the most popular movies of all time, but it's all one of the most political destructive. It's basically includes an assemblage of ridiculous myths that were used to excuse racism of the Civil War and Reconstruction eras but later generations. For quite a while, Southerners and Southern sympathizers were mostly the ones that wrote about the period, and they came up with a lot of BS.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 24, 2018 12:51:08 GMT -5
I think about what a great film Braveheart could have been. But it just gets so many things wrong.
The worst thing is the scene where the king throws the prince's effeminate advisor out of the tower. Not only is it total b.s. because nothing like that ever happened, but it was very disheartening the way the audience cheered! Seriously, Braveheart makes me sick to my stomach.
And The Patriot was well on it way to being one of the best films ever about the American Revolution. Until the filmmakers thought it was necessary to throw in a scene about how kind Francis Marion was to his slaves. He freed them, you see, and he was so nice to them that they all stayed on the plantation and worked for wages.
(I just did a little research to refresh my memory on a film I haven't seen since it first came out. Mel's character is Benjamin Martin, based on Francis Marion and several other historical figures. But the way the film treats slavery is not just inaccurate, it's stupid.)
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 24, 2018 14:42:42 GMT -5
I think about what a great film Braveheart could have been. But it just gets so many things wrong. The worst thing is the scene where the king throws the prince's effeminate advisor out of the tower. Not only is it total b.s. because nothing like that ever happened, but it was very disheartening the way the audience cheered! Seriously, Braveheart makes me sick to my stomach. And The Patriot was well on it way to being one of the best films ever about the American Revolution. Until the filmmakers thought it was necessary to throw in a scene about what how kind Francis Marion was to his slaves. He freed them, you see, and he was so nice to them that they all stayed on the plantation and worked for wages. (I just did a little research to refresh my memory on a film haven't seen since it first came out. Mel's character is Benjamin Martin, based on Francis Marion and several other historical figures. But the way the film treats slavery is not just inaccurate, it's stupid.) Agreed. Marion was a fascinating figure to me because, as a kid, I had devoured the Disney Swamp Fox episodes. When the Gibson movie came out, I was more than ready for an honest appraisal of what Marion had done and who he was, albeit in a bio-pic, especially b/c the Revolution has been underserved as a source for good popular moviemaking. Of course I should have known they'd make a botch of it. The treatment of slavery was the most obvious mistake, but in their effort (need?) to make the British as buffoonish and evil as the villains of the piece, they present the atrocity of the church-burning and various bits with the Cornwallis figure played by Tom Wilkinson that just do not fly at all. It was essentially Braveheart in buckskins and was just as awful a movie.
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Post by String on Nov 24, 2018 15:26:00 GMT -5
How does Kingdom of Heaven by Ridley Scott fair in the area of accuracy?
My wife loves the film and after watching it myself a few times, I am rather impressed by it as it doesn't seem to be a typical Hollywood-ized history epic but then again, my overall knowledge of that period is rather limited.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 24, 2018 17:02:11 GMT -5
I think about what a great film Braveheart could have been. But it just gets so many things wrong. The worst thing is the scene where the king throws the prince's effeminate advisor out of the tower. Not only is it total b.s. because nothing like that ever happened, but it was very disheartening the way the audience cheered! Seriously, Braveheart makes me sick to my stomach. And The Patriot was well on it way to being one of the best films ever about the American Revolution. Until the filmmakers thought it was necessary to throw in a scene about what how kind Francis Marion was to his slaves. He freed them, you see, and he was so nice to them that they all stayed on the plantation and worked for wages. (I just did a little research to refresh my memory on a film haven't seen since it first came out. Mel's character is Benjamin Martin, based on Francis Marion and several other historical figures. But the way the film treats slavery is not just inaccurate, it's stupid.) Agreed. Marion was a fascinating figure to me because, as a kid, I had devoured the Disney Swamp Fox episodes. When the Gibson movie came out, I was more than ready for an honest appraisal of what Marion had done and who he was, albeit in a bio-pic, especially b/c the Revolution has been underserved as a source for good popular moviemaking. Of course I should have known they'd make a botch of it. The treatment of slavery was the most obvious mistake, but in their effort (need?) to make the British as buffoonish and evil as the villains of the piece, they present the atrocity of the church-burning and various bits with the Cornwallis figure played by Tom Wilkinson that just do not fly at all. It was essentially Braveheart in buckskins and was just as awful a movie. The part where the British burnt all those people in the church is a sort-of famous piece of propaganda that was made-up (supposedly by Benjamin Franklin) to pass around in Britain to make the war even more unpopular than it already was with the British public. And there's some real British atrocities they could have used! The British decided to wreak havoc among the Southern states by urging the slaves to flee the plantations and fight with the British. And the slave population answered by rushing to the ports in the thousands. But they didn't serve with the redcoats. They were held captive on prison ships and were thus unable to help the American war effort by their labor. Many died of disease and starvation. But you can see why the filmmakers decided they'd rather use a made-up atrocity against white people. It made the Americans look bad that such a huge number of slaves were so eager to abandon their masters to take a chance with the British
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Post by rberman on Nov 24, 2018 17:36:04 GMT -5
I enjoy movies to the extent that I am ignorant of the reality behind purportedly factual elements which they portray. When I see something that's in my line of work, it's instinctive to think, "No, that's not how we do that," and of course it jerks me out of the movie. But other people seeing the same movie won't have that problem. I don't know much about Queen besides liking the songs on their Greatest Hits, so I could probably enjoy that one just fine.
I am more annoyed with films that take the easy way out by making authority figures (parents, teachers, religious leaders) obstacles rather than assets 95% of the time. I understand that heroes need a challenge to smash up against, but the reflexive anti-authoritatian streak is lazy, cliche, and not really good for us as a culture.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 24, 2018 18:04:14 GMT -5
How does Kingdom of Heaven by Ridley Scott fair in the area of accuracy? My wife loves the film and after watching it myself a few times, I am rather impressed by it as it doesn't seem to be a typical Hollywood-ized history epic but then again, my overall knowledge of that period is rather limited. I like it as a movie... in the same way that I enjoy Michael Curtiz's Charge of the Light Brigade as a movie. It barely makes a brush with the history, though.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 24, 2018 18:35:40 GMT -5
How does Kingdom of Heaven by Ridley Scott fair in the area of accuracy? My wife loves the film and after watching it myself a few times, I am rather impressed by it as it doesn't seem to be a typical Hollywood-ized history epic but then again, my overall knowledge of that period is rather limited. I like it as a movie... in the same way that I enjoy Michael Curtiz's Charge of the Light Brigade as a movie. It barely makes a brush with the history, though. I absolutely love They Died With Their Boots On and I've probably seen it four or five times over the years. But it gets an 'F' for historical accuracy in many important categories.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 24, 2018 19:59:28 GMT -5
I like it as a movie... in the same way that I enjoy Michael Curtiz's Charge of the Light Brigade as a movie. It barely makes a brush with the history, though. I absolutely love They Died With Their Boots On and I've probably seen it four or five times over the years. But it gets an 'F' for historical accuracy in many important categories. Right. About all they got right was that there was a George Armstrong Custer.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 24, 2018 22:07:18 GMT -5
Would anyone say the Passion Of The Christ was an accurate biopic of his arrest/torture/execution?
And why was it so reviled in Hollywood? (even though it was a huge hit)
Asking because I heard Mel is doing a sequel called "Resurrection."
First of all, if you don't believe in the historicity of the Bible, any movie about the Old or New Testament is by definition a fiction. It would be like fact-checking "Clash of the Titans." As for the reaction to it in Hollywood and elsewhere, many thought that Gibson used horror movie tropes to tell his story as violently as possible (shocker only if you've never seen a Mel Gibson movie). However, as I recall, the most damning criticism of the movie was that it reinforced the old story that the Jews were to blame for the death of the Christ. Jesus and his followers, much of the criticism held, were depicted as the only "good Jews." The others were by turns greedy, nasty, physically unattractive and bloodthirsty. Gibson's membership in a sect of Catholics that holds that the Catholic Church lost its way as of Vatican Two, when Pope Paul VI "exonerated" the Jews of being so-called Christ-killers (big of him) and Gibson's oft pronounced opinions of Jews didn't help the impression that he was reviving hateful stereotypes that had long been a staple of anti-Semitism, Passion Plays and various parts of Christian doctrine for centuries. A caveat: I've only watched a scene or two of it in passing; relentless torture presented as veneration isn't my cuppa.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 25, 2018 0:42:33 GMT -5
As to the general question, I wouldn't historical inaccuracies so much if I knew people wouldn't assume accuracy and would do their research. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people assume movies based on true stories are accurate and shape their views based on them. Sometimes the changes from reality shape a narrative. I really enjoy Bonnie and Clyde as a work of art. To some extent, the protagonists are misfits searching for meaning. But they are also portrayed as fighting against "the man" in robbing banks that kicking people out of their homes and farms. But apparently, the targets of their robberies were mostly small stores and gas stations. In other words, they were mostly victimizing small mom and pop operations, not powerful financial institutions. I think it's a great film, but part of it's greatness comes from ignoring the reality of who Bonnie and Clyde were. I think the propaganda in inaccurate films can shape public opinion in damaging ways. Gone With the Wind is one of the most popular movies of all time, but it's all one of the most political destructive. It's basically includes an assemblage of ridiculous myths that were used to excuse racism of the Civil War and Reconstruction eras but later generations. For quite a while, Southerners and Southern sympathizers were mostly the ones that wrote about the period, and they came up with a lot of BS. Interesting about Bonnie & Clyde. It had quite an influence on fashions at the time. I am very conflicted about it myself, have the DVD but not quite in my all time faves list. It definitely is fantasy and manipulative in ways, yet they ultimately meet up with the real fate of the two historical individuals which sort of reedems it, like Thelma and Louise later. Gets them off the hook morally somehow as they pay for their sins in a visually impactful way. I resisted ever making my way through Gone With The Wind, finally did so and didn't hate it so much as I thought, I expected to have to consign it with Birth Of A Nation, one of the most negatively impactful movies on America ever made. Hmm, doesn't the word 'impactful' exist? Autocheck keeps scolding me on it! The again 'autocheck' doesn't seem to exist either. There could be an autocheck for biography films... then they'd at least be choices made rather than ignorance or callousness to fact shown.
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Post by berkley on Nov 25, 2018 2:05:12 GMT -5
I saw Bonnie and Clyde for the first time only a year or two ago when it played at a local cinema here - was too young to see it in the theatres when it came out and never caught it on tv all these years. It is a great looking film - the two leads, the period sets, costumes, the colour cinematography, etc.
It's also the first time in my life I've understood Warren Beatty's on-screen charisma: never had seen him as a young actor before and he was good-looking in a non-standard, almost un-Hollywood way - and also in great shape in a way not so common at that time, when it wasn't routine for actors to hit the gym regularly.
Gibson's a nutcase, as far as I can tell, and I Haven't seen Braveheart, or The Patriot (that title - ugh!), or Passion of the Christ, but of the three, I admit to feeling some curiosity about the last, mainly because I thought it was a cool idea to have the Roman characters speak in an attempted reproduction of ancient Latin and the Israelites or Judaeans in - what, Aramaic or ancient Hebrew? I'd like to hear how that sounded. A friend of mine, not particularly religious as far as I know, but a history buff, said the political stuff was handled pretty well, e.g. the problems facing the Romans in governing an unruly province of what seemed to them dangerous religious fanatics. Gibson's anti-semitism is hard to take, though, especially in the light of subsequent events.
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