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Post by kurrgomaul on Jul 31, 2018 7:57:24 GMT -5
Comedy Central's Jim Jeffries show did a piece on the growing anti-diversity movement in the comics community and interviews Richard Meyer (from the diversity in comics Youtube channel) and pardon me for my french but he is just as much a big a scumbag as I always imagine him. he hates...pretty much all female superheros. doesn't like different races or LGBT either. he is the alt-right of comics. on his Youtube channel his subscribers is one big echo chamber because most of them are racists & sexists too who are blaming "SJWs" for Marvel's poor quarterly sales (HMMMM...maybe the sales are actually because they are cancelling those so-called sjw comics like America! and Gwenpool???). they even harass the women at Marvel who are making comics. I am glad Jim Jeffries got him on his show to expose just what kind a guy he is and Jim Jeffries and his elite team of female and people of color comic fans totally smash Richard Meyer rhetoric. as the woman dressed as Harley Quinn says it best Richard Meyer is "a garbage person". Diversity is not the issue in comics it is the bigots in the comics community who are turning casual readers away and in many cases are actively preventing casual readers from enjoying comics.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 31, 2018 10:09:38 GMT -5
Christ, that was really hard to watch. Not just because of Jim Jeffries' views, but everybody else in the video seemed like a dumbass, while the host, whoever he is, is such a smarmy, self-satisfied %@#£, that any reasonable person would surely delight in giving him a much deserved smack in the mouth.
As for the subject in hand, this is probably gonna be controversial, but the thing about the backlash against diversity in comics from certain comic fans (and I'm not including misogynistic nutjobs like Jeffries in this BTW) is that, actually, when it comes to already established characters, I can totally understand where those people are coming from. I don't read any current Marvel or DC anymore, but if I was still reading Spider-Man (who is my all-time favourite superhero) and Marvel decided to either change Peter Parker's gender via some kind of magical shenanigans or have another person -- man or woman -- take over the role, I would definitely lose interest in the comics. Because it's no longer the same character I enjoyed reading about.
You can't simply change vital aspects of a character or change the person behind the mask and expect fans to carry on reading as if nothing's happened. Some fans will continue with the new direction, sure, but it makes total sense to me that a lot will also resent the change. That does not automatically make those fans racists or misogynists. It just makes them passionate about a given character, and naturally they would feel aggrieved by fundamental changes to that character. Especially if they suspect that those changes have been wrought by a writer and/or publisher for no other reason than to generate publicity or to be seen as being fashionable, rather than as something that actually needed to be done for any story driven reason.
Increased diversity in comics is a brilliant idea -- especially when it comes to increasing the number of people of colour or ethnic minorities in lead roles in comics -- but I feel it needs to be done by creating some really kick-ass new characters, which all fans, regardless of their gender or racial heritage, will enjoy.
Shoehorning racial or sexual minorities into already existing straight Caucasian characters is always gonna breed resentment, I think. It would be a surprise to me if it didn't.
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Post by The Captain on Jul 31, 2018 10:11:16 GMT -5
The thing about "diversity and bigotry" in comics is if you don't like something or are against it (for whatever reason), just don't buy it.
Take Marvel's "America" book, starring a college-age, Latina, lesbian lead character. Not necessarily the kind of book I'm looking to read, but I don't have to. I also don't have to badmouth it, harass the creators of it, or insist Marvel cancel it; I can just ignore it, like I do with 99% of Marvel's other current output. It's not a difficult concept to understand.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Jul 31, 2018 10:18:07 GMT -5
The thing about "diversity and bigotry" in comics is if you don't like something or are against it (for whatever reason), just don't buy it. Absolutely right, although I think you're forgetting that some fans don't like having their favourite fictional character fundamentally changed, and are obviously going to resent that. Which is fair enough because nobody likes having their favourite thing taken away from them. But isn't people stopping buying the comics also this part of the argument? That increased diversity is hurting comic sales. I'm not saying that I believe that, but sales declining on books with increased diversity in them is part of what those aggrieved fans are complaining about, I think. I also don't have to badmouth it, harass the creators of it, or insist Marvel cancel it; I can just ignore it, like I do with 99% of Marvel's other current output. It's not a difficult concept to understand. Yeah, harassing or bullying real people over decisions made about fictional characters is nuts. |
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 31, 2018 14:01:58 GMT -5
Yeah, the taking an existing character and changing them when done badly is just lame to me too. They actually did it right with Green Lantern and Iron Man in the past in a way that didn't throw out the original guys. I suppose I can see somebody could feel angry if they are throwing out characters they identified with by replacing them or by killing them off like I felt when they killed Supergirl in 1985. Having gone back and read the protean replacement for her I felt like that was an 'imposter' and not what I wanted or should be offered. The old Ms. Marvel now being Captain and there being a new and different Ms. Marvel added is doing it right I think. The new Mr. Terrific where the old one was a pretty minor character and ended so long ago also seems like the way to go. I don't like the female Dr. Who in other media though... that seems totally out of left field and a desperate gimmick to get attention mainly. The Master changing sex was out of the blue also, but they are a secondary character that doesn't fundamentally alter the foundation title character. Iceman coming out of the closet could be done right; he was confused over a relationship in the old New Defenders comics with the Cloud character I remember.
I'm tired of the extremes on both ends, the internet seems to have handed a megaphone over or unleashed an ID in a lot of maybe otherwise mild mannered types (guilty here). 'Manufacturing outrage'... are any of us totally immune to being played and pitted against someone else by such things? Wild pendulum swings are not my idea of balance, nor fist shaking crowds of the self-righteous who demonize an enemy.
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Post by The Captain on Jul 31, 2018 15:10:02 GMT -5
Yeah, the taking an existing character and changing them when done badly is just lame to me too. They actually did it right with Green Lantern and Iron Man in the past in a way that didn't throw out the original guys. I suppose I can see somebody could feel angry if they are throwing out characters they identified with by replacing them or by killing them off like I felt when they killed Supergirl in 1985. Having gone back and read the protean replacement for her I felt like that was an 'imposter' and not what I wanted or should be offered. The old Ms. Marvel now being Captain and there being a new and different Ms. Marvel added is doing it right I think. The new Mr. Terrific where the old one was a pretty minor character and ended so long ago also seems like the way to go. I don't like the female Dr. Who in other media though... that seems totally out of left field and a desperate gimmick to get attention mainly. The Master changing sex was out of the blue also, but they are a secondary character that doesn't fundamentally alter the foundation title character. Iceman coming out of the closet could be done right; he was confused over a relationship in the old New Defenders comics with the Cloud character I remember. I'm tired of the extremes on both ends, the internet seems to have handed a megaphone over or unleashed an ID in a lot of maybe otherwise mild mannered types (guilty here). 'Manufacturing outrage'... are any of us totally immune to being played and pitted against someone else by such things? Wild pendulum swings are not my idea of balance, nor fist shaking crowds of the self-righteous who demonize an enemy. Actually, having The Master gender-swap laid the groundwork for them being able to have the 13th Doctor do the same. It's a race of regenerating aliens who turn out differently every time they die, so unless they specifically established that males can only regenerate male and females can only regenerate female, they haven't done anything that violates canon, so it really isn't out of left field or a gimmick. The nice thing about it is, if it doesn't work out, they can always swap back for the 14th Doctor and it is still an organic change within the character mythology that has been created. As to the first point you made in your post, I agree with you. The character of Tony Stark never changed, only that the person wearing the Iron Man suit did, and that is why it was reasonable; the story dictated the change to Rhodey, not the idea of selling more books because of having a black Iron Man. In addition, I have no issue with something like Marvel having Julie Power grow up to be a lesbian, as she was introduced as a child without an established sexuality and it is perfectly reasonable that she could grow up to like girls. Now, if the next issue of Amazing Spider-Man came out and all of a sudden Peter Parker was chasing guys instead of MJ, that is a fundamental change to established canon and could be rightly complained about, because there would be no basis in anything written for almost 60 years to defend that kind of move. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 31, 2018 17:03:48 GMT -5
Yeah, the taking an existing character and changing them when done badly is just lame to me too. They actually did it right with Green Lantern and Iron Man in the past in a way that didn't throw out the original guys. I suppose I can see somebody could feel angry if they are throwing out characters they identified with by replacing them or by killing them off like I felt when they killed Supergirl in 1985. Having gone back and read the protean replacement for her I felt like that was an 'imposter' and not what I wanted or should be offered. The old Ms. Marvel now being Captain and there being a new and different Ms. Marvel added is doing it right I think. The new Mr. Terrific where the old one was a pretty minor character and ended so long ago also seems like the way to go. I don't like the female Dr. Who in other media though... that seems totally out of left field and a desperate gimmick to get attention mainly. The Master changing sex was out of the blue also, but they are a secondary character that doesn't fundamentally alter the foundation title character. Iceman coming out of the closet could be done right; he was confused over a relationship in the old New Defenders comics with the Cloud character I remember. I'm tired of the extremes on both ends, the internet seems to have handed a megaphone over or unleashed an ID in a lot of maybe otherwise mild mannered types (guilty here). 'Manufacturing outrage'... are any of us totally immune to being played and pitted against someone else by such things? Wild pendulum swings are not my idea of balance, nor fist shaking crowds of the self-righteous who demonize an enemy. Actually, having The Master gender-swap laid the groundwork for them being able to have the 13th Doctor do the same. It's a race of regenerating aliens who turn out differently every time they die, so unless they specifically established that males can only regenerate male and females can only regenerate female, they haven't done anything that violates canon, so it really isn't out of left field or a gimmick. The nice thing about it is, if it doesn't work out, they can always swap back for the 14th Doctor and it is still an organic change within the character mythology that has been created. As to the first point you made in your post, I agree with you. The character of Tony Stark never changed, only that the person wearing the Iron Man suit did, and that is why it was reasonable; the story dictated the change to Rhodey, not the idea of selling more books because of having a black Iron Man. In addition, I have no issue with something like Marvel having Julie Power grow up to be a lesbian, as she was introduced as a child without an established sexuality and it is perfectly reasonable that she could grow up to like girls. Now, if the next issue of Amazing Spider-Man came out and all of a sudden Peter Parker was chasing guys instead of MJ, that is a fundamental change to established canon and could be rightly complained about, because there would be no basis in anything written for almost 60 years to defend that kind of move.**Cough cough** Bobby Drake **cough cough**! |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 31, 2018 17:33:21 GMT -5
I think this issue is not diversity, but they way diversity is used.... Marvel has to create new characters that add to their shared universe, not change existing ones. Iceman is a great example. Is he so very popular that they needed to capitalize on his fame to have a gay X-Man? Why not either create a new one, use a non-established character that hasn't had anything in his history to contradict, or just move an existing character to the forefront?
It clearly can work when done well (Ms. Marvel is a testament to that), without disrupting anything from the past. I think it's the arbitary and/or forced nature of many of the swaps that people take issue with.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 31, 2018 17:40:25 GMT -5
The problem is that "Real Comic Book Fans™" are a superstitious and cowardly lot who clutch their pearls and get their undies in a wad with anything that threatens the status quo as it was when they were 12.
That Hal Jordan is a flash in the pan. The only real Green Lantern is Alan Scott, consarnit!
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 31, 2018 17:59:31 GMT -5
**Cough cough** Bobby Drake **cough cough**! Bendis shouldn't even be writing comics anymore after that mess. |
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Post by Farrar on Jul 31, 2018 19:00:11 GMT -5
The problem is that "Real Comic Book Fans™" are a superstitious and cowardly lot who clutch their pearls and get their undies in a wad with anything that threatens the status quo as it was when they were 12. That Hal Jordan is a flash in the pan. The only real Green Lantern is Alan Scott, consarnit! LOL, I wrote something like that on another board some years ago (this topic will never go away). "Who is this Johnny-Come-Lately-Storm? Ever'one knows the Human Torch is an android, goshdarnit!" |
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Post by beccabear67 on Jul 31, 2018 20:25:27 GMT -5
I have no idea how they are doing things with Iceman today, but there was a character in the J.M.DeMatteis New Defenders comic in the '80s named Cloud that changed gender back and forth (and appeared nude but for a cloud conveniently placed) and Iceman/Bobby Drake was attracted to and involved with them, had conversations about it with other characters, so you could say that was some start to his coming out. I guess a lot of gay men (especially in past generations) went through trying to be 'normal' and dating women, even marrying and having kids. They were not allowed to marry who they might want to after all. I can't claim to fully understand it but generally I take people at their word about themselves. Also I can't really know the pressures from all sides to conform in the past.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 31, 2018 20:42:02 GMT -5
I have no idea how they are doing things with Iceman today, but there was a character in the J.M.DeMatteis New Defenders comic in the '80s named Cloud that changed gender back and forth (and appeared nude but for a cloud conveniently placed) and Iceman/Bobby Drake was attracted to and involved with them, had conversations about it with other characters, so you could say that was some start to his coming out. I guess a lot of gay men (especially in past generations) went through trying to be 'normal' and dating women, even marrying and having kids. They were not allowed to marry who they might want to after all. I can't claim to fully understand it but generally I take people at their word about themselves. Also I can't really know the pressures from all sides to conform in the past. The worst part about the whole mess was that [expletitive deleted] Jean literally convinced Bobby in the past that he was homosexual. Apparently if you say it enough times you can change someone’s sexuality. Excuse me, my eyes rolled out of my skull. Brb |
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Post by brianf on Jul 31, 2018 21:40:18 GMT -5
I think all of this is silly. comic book characters are fictional - they can be anything any writer wants them to be. "Is it good or is it bad" is really the only question. I personally enjoyed the Slott's Superior Spider-Man (Doc Ock has control of Parker), the issues of Aarons Thor w/ Jane Foster in the role, and Loki as a female (around the Seige event) were also fun. The whole idea that "you can't change an established character" is boring to me. Iceman being gay isn't so weird - some folks get married to the opposite sex and don't actually understand their own sexuality until later in their life. its not as if there's not scores of changes to comic book characters of the years that don't make any sense. I personally have no problem if people don't enjoy these kinds of things - and sure some change for change sake has been done badly (I really did not enjoy those Hydra Cap comics - just not my cuppa) - you don't have to like everything. But you can't deny there are bigots & misogynist using comics to express ugly prejudices. And some of the hateful attacks against creators is just disgusting. Remember the Marvel Milkshake ladies?
I also came across these TWO POSTS by Greg Hatcher that I enjoyed. Peace. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Aug 1, 2018 3:44:05 GMT -5
I'm glad brianf mentioned the milkshake episode and linked Greg Hatcher's recent columns. The unhinged reaction to these occasional changes (which, as brianf points out, are really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things) cannot be emphasized enough - in that sense, the linked clip from the Jim Jefferies Show was actually a pretty tame response. (Edited to add: I found the re-imagining of Killmonger as an officious (white) woman calling the cops on Black Panther barbequing in the park hilarious.)
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