Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202
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Post by Confessor on Mar 20, 2021 22:20:09 GMT -5
One thing I do recall, though, is that it made the assertion that the South Vietnam military effort was in some respects unfairly disparaged by Western accounts. Hmmmm...I'm not sure I agree wholly with that. The ARVN (South Vietnamese army) were pretty bloody useless really, and there are a lot of accounts of American military personnel complaining about their lack of discipline and lack of courage under fire -- even prior to the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, when the American military was only there in an "advisory" role. But the ARVN's lack of dedication and discipline only increased as America totally failed to win the "hearts and mind" of the Vietnamese people throughout the late '60s. The trouble is, one of the things that the Americans never understood about the South Vietnamese is that after decades of colonial rule by the French, any foreign presence was intrinsically regarded as being an "invader". Even if they were supposedly there to help. So, there was always an undercurrent of hostility and antipathy towards the U.S. forces, even though they and the ARVN were supposed to be on the same side. This dislike of the Americans was only exacerbated by things like the U.S.-backed coup d'état and assassination of the South Vietnamese Prime Minister Diệm in 1963, and the installation of a succession of ineffective and corrupt Military Generals by the Americans. Most ordinary South Vietnamese folks just regarded these leaders as puppets for the meddling American government (with some justification). So, when the first combat troops came rolling into the country in early 1965, there was a lot of distrust already. We all know the famous footage and photographs of cute Vietnamese school girls with flower garlands greeting the U.S. troops (sent there by the South Vietnamese government), but I've also read accounts from those first American soldiers in-country recalling the scowls thrown at them and obvious hatred displayed by the villagers they passed on the road to Da Nang Air Base. And this was in March 1965! Long before the s*it really hit the fan. So, I can sort of see both sides of it. But then again, let's not forget that the U.S. were there to help the South Vietnamese people in their fight against Communism, after all. And regardless of what you may think of that policy, I think that it's fair to say that an awful lot of U.S. soldiers truly believed in that mission at the time (albeit naively). So, I can definitely understand why the Americans would grow frustrated and angry with the ARVN's ineffectiveness and lack of commitment to the cause.
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Post by berkley on Mar 21, 2021 0:03:52 GMT -5
Well, it's been so may years - decades! - since I watched that series that I can't in all honesty defend its POV - or criticise it either, for that matter. I might not even be remembering or representing it accurately.
I think it's totally normal and expectable that any people would react with fear and suspicion towards large numbers of foreign-looking people speaking a different language suddenly taking a foothold in their land, even if they weren't soldiers bearing arms - how would they not?! The strange thing to me is that the Americans wouldn't have anticipated this as a matter of course.
I'm aware of the implications of the statement I just made in regard to modern-day ideas about racism and immigration into western, "white" countries. I'm not siding with anti-immgrant rght-wing demagogues but acknowledging that those cynical, power-seeking mqnipulators are exloitiing a perfectly understandable human reaction that pretty much anyone would feel if placed under the right circumstances.
So it blows my mind that the Americans were surprised that the Vietnamese didn't welcome them with open arms. Did they ever stop to think how they would have felt if a Vietnamese or any other foreign armed force had suddenly shown uo on their soil to save them from, I dunno, Mexico? the Black Peril of freed slaves? Canada? OK, now I'm just getting ridiculous.
And it's the fact that all those scenarios are ridiculous that probably partly answers the question of why they were surprised: because very thought of America - as in the USA, not the American continents - being invaded, or of having large numbers of foreign forces and military bases on ts soil, even if those of allies - is totally outside their experience and therefore unthinkable.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 21, 2021 16:33:31 GMT -5
A couple of points re the Vietnam War. The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was passed unanimously in the House, but not in the Senate. Democrats Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska voted against the resolution. The circumstances surrounding the attack on the USS Maddox were at best confusing, and at worst, close to contrived. The supposed second attack, on the Maddox and the Turner Joy, never happened. I'm relying here on both the infamous Pentagon Papers and the US Naval Institute. The "attacks" were actually the results of "overeager sonar operators" and poor equipment performance. The Turner Joy had not detected any torpedoes during the entire encounter, and Herrick determined that the Maddox's operators were probably hearing the ship's propellers reflecting off her rudder during sharp turns.12 The destroyer's main gun director was never able to lock onto any targets because, as the operator surmised, the radar was detecting the stormy sea's wave tops.
The full story is here: www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2008/february/truth-about-tonkinThe CIA had been "involved" in Vietnam for many years, trying to stir the pot against Ho and his followers. You can lay the blame at the feet of many people and ideas, from the Domino Theory to American military and security interests in Southeast Asia, to concerns that supplies of resources like rubber and tin in Malaysia and elsewhere would be endangered if Vietnam "fell" to the forces of Ho. (This is yet another reminder that there is more irony than iron in the world, as the protection and acquisition of vital resources had been one reason for the creation of Imperial Japan's "East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"in the 1930s.) Here's the timeline, drawn from declassified CIA files: nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB284/index.htmSorry. Didn't want to turn this into a CSPAN presentation, but every reason cited for American"involvement"in Southeast Asia, a euphemism for the unparalleled destruction wrought upon the peoples of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia by the United States, is steeped in hypocrisy and untruth. As berkley says above, of course we were largely regarded as invaders and conquerors. Southeast Asia was no more than a region on a Risk game board for our military and Departments of Defense and State to indulge themselves. Napalm; Agent Orange; free-fire zones; the My Lai Massacre; Operation Phoenix(a CIA operation that executed without trial as many as 20,000 "suspected Communists);" seven million tons of bombs dropped, over twice the tonnage we dropped in both the European and Pacific Theatres in the Second World War; untold millions of civilian casualties. It was an orgy of death and ruin. But you know who loved it? Military contractors. They had never done better.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 24, 2021 18:27:23 GMT -5
The general consensus of the ARVN was that the leadership was poor, but that the troops would fight under good leaders. Success was better in the more specialized groups, like the Luc Luong Dac Biet, who were counter-insurgency specialists, trained directly by Special forces to mimic their role. They generally had a higher class of leadership and proved quite effective, as did the Vietnamese Ranger groups. The Montagnard peoples, who came from the mountainous regions, and were ethnically different from the Vietnamese, were well respected by US and Australian advisors. They were highly motivated; but, as an ethnic minority, they had been highly oppressed by the Vietnamese as a whole, and didn't care about South vs North, as they often saw all Vietnamese as their enemy. Same with the Nung peoples, who were ethnically of Thai and Chinese descent.
The average peasant in the villages just wanted to live in peace, raise a family, grow crops, whatever and had one group after another disrupt their lives. To them, anyone outside their village was suspect and the less they seemed like them, the less they were welcome. It's a pretty common story throughout the world. With the cities, you did have geographic differences between the people in places like Saigon and Hanoi, and North and south, in general, due to regional histories; but, the North had a more unified government that had fought a strong guerrilla war against the Japanese and then the French, while the South was often viewed as complicit, or at least complacent. Certainly, the corrupt leadership and the series of coups brought it no stature, as the people in the cities of the South were just as likely to protest the Republic of Vietnam Government as demonize the North.
One of the real strengths of the Burns documentary is the participation of people who were in the regular armies of both states, as well as those who were part of the Viet Cong cells. It illustrates well the perspectives of the groups, at those times, showing where they had been wrong and where their enemy had underestimated them.
From a military strategy standpoint, Vietnam was a clash of mindsets. the US Army was completely built around the concepts of large set piece warfare, where seizing enemy territory is the objective. They focused on high tech weapons and the ability to deliver huge amounts of ordinance on a target. The Vietnamese were used to fighting the Japanese and French in a running fight, hitting them and withdrawing, moving large amounts of men and equipment under hidden jungle trails, then popping up and surprising a garrison force in a large attack, then withdrawing. This kept their enemies under constant harassment, while they probed them for weaknesses and then exploited those weaknesses. US response was to engage the Vietnamese in force and could often win the day, but they fought for ground that they then abandoned and the North Vietnamese would re-enter when they withdrew. It was like a battlefield game of whack-a-mole. They then started looking for a way of measuring success on the battlefield and latched onto bodycounts, which became a wholly ridiculous concept, as numbers were rarely accurate and they obscured the fact that nothing was really being achieved. VC activity continued in "rear" areas, while regulars sought to isolate and attack US and allied forces, just as they had the French and Japanese. From interviews, the soldiers they really feared were the South Korean troops, the Australian special forces units and US Special Forces, as they would play the same game with the VC and North Vietnamese regulars, creating chaos in their safe havens and disrupting their leadership and supply lines. The Australians, especially, would maintain contact with VC and other enemies for extended periods of time, as they were better schooled in jungle warfare. Even US special forces units didn't pursue the VC deeply, after combat events, depending on the aggressiveness of the A-Team or other special forces presence. The Australians would track the VC movements for days, sometimes, moving in to counter-ambush and proved very effective.
The US continued to train with a World War 2 mindset up into my day, during the first Gulf War. US military strategy still hinged upon fighting a large scale war on two fronts, rather than more small scale actions in a limited region. Army units were still very much built around those large scale battles, rather than more mobile and multi-mission units. That thinking changed by the 90s, though the same groupthink of winning conflicts through technological might still clouds a lot of their strategy in regions where they are actively conducting operations. They have been more focused on urban environments, due to the fighting in Iraq; but, they are still more and more dependent on drones and satellites for intel, which can often lead to false assumptions when exploited by a cunning enemy. During the US involvement in the Balkan fighting, the Serbs used to confound NATO intel by using decoys for things like artillery, by disguising things like logs as artillery pieces, much like the deception tactics employed in North Africa and the UK, during WW2. The Russians and the Chinese militaries were quite adept at using deception to mislead their enemies into traps.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 4, 2021 16:23:50 GMT -5
Wasn't sure if this belonged here or in the book thread, but it seems more historical than anything else, so... The NegroW.E.B. Du Bois, 1915 (2001 reprint edition) Du Bois was one of the premier American intellectuals of the late 19th and 20th centuries. He's probably best known for his renowned collection of essays, The Souls of Black Folk, which many of us came across in college (often being assigned to read only a few chapters rather than the whole thing - that was the case for me, and I have to admit that I only read it cover to cover long after my student days - same with another notable book of essays, Darkwater*). At the time of its publication, The Negro was very likely the first synthesis of contemporary scholarship (history, archeology, anthropology) concerning Africa and Black people in general. Du Bois wrote it is a sort of counterpoint to prevailing views in America, but also Europe, about the 'ahistorical' nature of Africa and its peoples - and even though much of the history he recounts has been superseded or just greatly supplemented by subsequent scholarship, his summary of African history is still useful. And, unfortunately, his conclusion about how little is known about the continent's rich history is in many ways still valid today: "It is a curious commentary on modern prejudice that most of this splendid history of civilization and uplift is unknown to-day, and men confidently assert that Negroes have no history." The last few chapters of the book, in which Du Bois mainly focused on the slave trade and the Americas (with, obviously, a focus on the US), are the strongest, and its fascinating that back in 1915 he had a very ahead-of-his time perspective on imperialism and colonialism - at times I had the impression he was commenting on late 20th century or even modern global politics. This is well worth reading, and it's very readable - it reads more like a long essay than some dry, musty 19th century work of historiography. * Darkwater is additionally interesting in that the last chapter is basically an example of an early science fiction story.
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Post by berkley on Apr 5, 2021 17:27:33 GMT -5
I already had The Souls of Black Folk on my to-read list but I thnk this is the first time I've heard about this one. I like reading older non-fiction books - history, science, etc - even if the info or ideas are outmoded. It's interesting to see how these things have changed over time.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 9, 2021 12:56:43 GMT -5
Ancient lost city in Egypt announced near the Valley of the Kings. The 3,000 year old city appears to have been founded by Amenhotep III.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 9, 2021 19:06:24 GMT -5
Ancient lost city in Egypt announced near the Valley of the Kings. The 3,000 year old city appears to have been founded by Amenhotep III. What if they are wrong and it is actually a very large marble maze?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 9, 2021 19:19:15 GMT -5
The Nazis have found Tanis!
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Post by foxley on Apr 9, 2021 20:34:59 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the work of anarchist folk singer David Rovics. One of his songs is " Battle of Blair Mountain", which is based on a real event: the largest labor uprising in United States history and the largest armed uprising since the American Civil War. Although I pride myself on having a decent knowledge of American history, I had never heard of this, so I was wondering if this event if well-known (or known at all) in the US? 'Coz in Australia, this would have become part of our national identity, like the Eureka Stockade.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 0:17:01 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the work of anarchist folk singer David Rovics. One of his songs is " Battle of Blair Mountain", which is based on a real event: the largest labor uprising in United States history and the largest armed uprising since the American Civil War. Although I pride myself on having a decent knowledge of American history, I had never heard of this, so I was wondering if this event if well-known (or known at all) in the US? 'Coz in Australia, this would have become part of our national identity, like the Eureka Stockade. When I was teaching US History about 20 years ago, this was not something that made any of the text books I used, though other labor uprisings and major strikes were covered, so I'd be inclined to say, no not that well known as it probably didn't make it pass the content police who decides what gets into textbooks based on where their key high sales regions are. -M
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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 10, 2021 4:46:05 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the work of anarchist folk singer David Rovics. One of his songs is " Battle of Blair Mountain", which is based on a real event: the largest labor uprising in United States history and the largest armed uprising since the American Civil War. Although I pride myself on having a decent knowledge of American history, I had never heard of this, so I was wondering if this event if well-known (or known at all) in the US? 'Coz in Australia, this would have become part of our national identity, like the Eureka Stockade. When I was teaching US History about 20 years ago, this was not something that made any of the text books I used, though other labor uprisings and major strikes were covered, so I'd be inclined to say, no not that well known as it probably didn't make it pass the content police who decides what gets into textbooks based on where their key high sales regions are. Yeah, the history of the labor movement in the US from the late 19th and early 20th centuries is absolutely fascinating and criminally overlooked by our (I mean American) educational system. Besides Blair Mountain, other notable events include the Haymarket Massacre in Chicago in 1886 (which is commemorated on May Day - not, significantly, observed as a state holiday in the US) and another miners' uprising in Colorado in 1913/1914 (called the Colorado Coalfield War). I think I'd only read a very little about the Haymarket events in high school - if I'm remembering correctly, it was in one of those separate boxes in a textbook, i.e., like an interesting tidbit or piece of trivia rather than something highly significant. And we never discussed it in class. I only learned about other events once I took more focused US history courses in college or when doing my own reading. There was a movie made in the 1980s, Matewan, about, obviously, the Matewan massacre, which was one component of the larger Blair Mountain events. As I recall, it was a critically acclaimed film, but it didn't have any impact on making the general public more aware of the country's often bloody labor history which, as you noted foxley , should be a part of our national identity and lore.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 10:11:46 GMT -5
When I was teaching US History about 20 years ago, this was not something that made any of the text books I used, though other labor uprisings and major strikes were covered, so I'd be inclined to say, no not that well known as it probably didn't make it pass the content police who decides what gets into textbooks based on where their key high sales regions are. Yeah, the history of the labor movement in the US from the late 19th and early 20th centuries is absolutely fascinating and criminally overlooked by our (I mean American) educational system. Besides Blair Mountain, other notable events include the Haymarket Massacre in Chicago in 1886 (which is commemorated on May Day - not, significantly, observed as a state holiday in the US) and another miners' uprising in Colorado in 1913/1914 (called the Colorado Coalfield War). I think I'd only read a very little about the Haymarket events in high school - if I'm remembering correctly, it was in one of those separate boxes in a textbook, i.e., like an interesting tidbit or piece of trivia rather than something highly significant. And we never discussed it in class. I only learned about other events once I took more focused US history courses in college or when doing my own reading. There was a movie made in the 1980s, Matewan, about, obviously, the Matewan massacre, which was one component of the larger Blair Mountain events. As I recall, it was a critically acclaimed film, but it didn't have any impact on making the general public more aware of the country's often bloody labor history which, as you noted foxley , should be a part of our national identity and lore. Haymarket Square is the one I most often saw in textbooks and the one I usually used as the default example of Labor Unrest (along with the Pullman Strikes) when I covered the topic. I have a feeling it is in a sense like the Tulsa Race Massacre in that it is going to take including it in some kind of pop culture vehicle (Watchman an Lovecraft Country both had references to it) to raise the awareness of the event in a general sense. And that is a sad condemnation of the curriculum and textbooks that are par for the course in the American educational system. But both are more concerned with what is palatable and sellable than with what is important for people to know. -M
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 10, 2021 15:41:46 GMT -5
Isn't the Haymarket affair the one in which Caleb Hammer's brother was killed?
Who said comic-books aren't educational!!!
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 10, 2021 19:47:30 GMT -5
In general, the Labor Movement gets a pass in most textbooks, or is covered as a general thing, dispensed with in a few paragraphs. Similarly, things like the Grange Movement, women's suffrage, the muckrakers, and Socialism are pretty under represented topics in US textbooks or demonized, in some cases. It has gotten worse in more recent decades, as special interest (read political) groups have worked to dominate school boards and other groups who make decisions on textbooks used and test questions within school systems, weeding out topics they deem either too volatile or subversive. For instance, a textbook might mention the Triangle Factory Fire, but minimize it as a touchpoint for the International Ladies Garment Workers Union. There was at least one tv movie done on the subject, in the late 1970s or very early 80s. Given the decline of Labor in the Reagan Years and after, its importance in American history also declined as a textbook subject.
A good source, in general, for these kinds of topics is Howard Zinn's A Peoples History of the United States, which delves into numerous topics ignored or minimized in mainstream history texts. Of course, that led to political counter-points, like A Patriot's History of the United States, by Larry Schweikart and Michael Allen, which presents a very neo-conservative perspective on history.
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