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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 19:35:57 GMT -5
Once upon a time, about the biggest argument I would hear in my local comic shop would be about who would win in a Superman vs Hulk battle. But over the last few years, the vitriol within the community has got out of hand to the point its turning me off from comics in general.
I know change has been responsible for most of it but even so, why does it have to turn into "us vs them" or some type of pissing contest? And why do people assume if I like "x" that means I don't like "y". It all does my head in.
The other day in a shop I was talking to a mate and mentioned that I never really cared for a certain hero, that happens to be really popular. Well some folks across from me mumbled, "Another f**king social justice warrior b**tch". First off, how do they make that sort of correlation if me not liking a comic book character and it making me a SJW? Second, why would you say something so mean in public? Third, why should everyone like the same characters anyway? Just because I don't like what you like has no bearing on my character or yours.
I don't know. I've been reading comics since the 70's and collecting sine the 80's but I have to tell you, I'm thinking about throwing the towel in. FFS, we ought to be ONE community even with our differences. This us vs them crap needs to stop.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 20, 2017 19:54:55 GMT -5
Once upon a time, about the biggest argument I would hear in my local comic shop would be about who would win in a Superman vs Hulk battle. But over the last few years, the vitriol within the community has got out of hand to the point its turning me off from comics in general. I know change has been responsible for most of it but even so, why does it have to turn into "us vs them" or some type of pissing contest? And why do people assume if I like "x" that means I don't like "y". It all does my head in. The other day in a shop I was talking to a mate and mentioned that I never really cared for a certain hero, that happens to be really popular. Well some folks across from me mumbled, "Another f**king social justice warrior b**tch". First off, how do they make that sort of correlation if me not liking a comic book character and it making me a SJW? Second, why would you say something so mean in public? Third, why should everyone like the same characters anyway? Just because I don't like what you like has no bearing on my character or yours. I don't know. I've been reading comics since the 70's and collecting sine the 80's but I have to tell you, I'm thinking about throwing the towel in. FFS, we ought to be ONE community even with our differences. This us vs them crap needs to stop. I left it behind years ago; but that was due to general disinterest in what was being published, rather than people at my local shop. In person, I found things to be fairly cordial and never had problems with anyone in that environment. I've seen more venom online; but that is from typical cowards who use anonymity to elevate themselves by bringing others down. I can handle that bunch pretty easily; but, don't waste much time in their environments. I stopped going to the imdb boards for comic book movies, as they had more trolls than a Norwegian folk pageant. Everyone wanted to make everything DC vs Marvel, oblivious to the fact that the comic companies don't run the studios adapting their characters. They may be part of the same conglomerate; but, the publishing people have F-all say in the movies. They may give notes; but, the movie people tend to ignore them. Now, I'm assuming, based on your screen name and the "b***** comment" that you are female. So, that probably lends an element for which I have no experience. I'm a white Anglo-Saxon male and grew up in a small town, without real cliques in school. So, I've never had to face misogyny, racism, anti-semitism, or other prejudices, apart from stupid comments by younger idiots, when I was an adult and I just shook my head at them and walked away, or did a Cyrano and taunted them with their lack of creativity. Why someone would say that is probably because they have trouble with the opposite sex and felt threatened by someone disagreeing with them (again, assuming you are female). These days, it seems people have to have their tastes validated and someone not liking what they like makes them feel insecure and they lash out. Look at the state of politics and general discussions. Again, the internet lowers the discourse, due to lack of immediate consequences. My best advice is try not to let idiots like that bother you and recognize that it is their own insecurity at play, and focus on what you like. Again, I can't speak to the environment of your shop. If it is becoming oppressive, try an alternate, if available, or stick with communities like this. There are enough alternatives for getting comics that a shop that tolerates that kind of behavior doesn't have to be a factor. My best general advice is be true to yourself and others will respond well to that; at least, the ones who really matter. Jack-asses like that don't matter and they know it. That's why they lash out.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 21, 2017 8:15:48 GMT -5
Once upon a time, about the biggest argument I would hear in my local comic shop would be about who would win in a Superman vs Hulk battle. But over the last few years, the vitriol within the community has got out of hand to the point its turning me off from comics in general. I know change has been responsible for most of it but even so, why does it have to turn into "us vs them" or some type of pissing contest? And why do people assume if I like "x" that means I don't like "y". It all does my head in. We have seen an increase in polarization in recent years; personally I am convinced that it is due to the current prevalence of social media as the primary theatre for discussion. Since we mostly discuss in what is essentially an anonymous fashion, many people abandon simple civility and revert to the most basic animalistic instincts, turning everything into, as you note, a pissing contest. They want to prove they're right, period, and are interested in what others say only insofar as it provides support for their own position or gives them something to attack. We see people insulting each other over politics, over religion, over science, over nutrition, and of course over comics (because naturally, the matter of whether Thor can beat Squirrel Girl is worth calling someone a #?%$). I agree. I would add that these people are probably cowards. If they feel they must insult you, they should have the fortitude to do it in your face and not mumbling something from the relative safety of their group of buddies. Seeing that they don't, and prefer sotto voce insults to the elemental courtesy of asking "oh, and why might it be that you do not care for character XYZ, which I personally view as a pinnacle of the comic-book field?", I would dismiss whatever they say as the irrelevant background noise of a humanity that counts way too many individuals. There as in politics or everywhere else for that matter.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 21, 2017 8:27:07 GMT -5
@willow
First off, I'm sorry to hear you had to experience that. As the father of two younger (tweenish) girls, I know that there are segments of society that are hostile to females and I worry for them, particularly my older daughter, who is a self-proclaimed geek with a deep love for Harry Potter, Doctor Who, comic books, Magic The Gathering, and Rick Riordan novels.
As for why they did it, it's pretty much because people suck. They care only about their thoughts, their wants, and their desires, and everyone else is wrong and stupid for not agreeing with them.
The SJW comment is perplexing, although it is without context from your post (not a criticism, just an observation), so I don't know what you said about this character or the overall topic. Regardless of that, it's just another example of a small, ignorant mind that cannot handle being challenged, particularly by a female. You womenfolk are supposed to be barefoot, pregnant, and baking pies, don't you know, not out in the real world having your own thoughts and opinions on things?
As I tell my girls all the time, just be confident in who you are. Like the things you like, do the things you want, and don't let the bastards bring you down (OK, I don't say the last part in quite those exact terms, because my wife would get really pissed at me if I did).
And if you find you need a safe place to talk about comics, that's why we're here. It's pretty chill and tolerant, although I advise against bringing up the topic of bananas, as it is possibly the one thing that could tear this site apart.
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Post by Randle-El on Sept 21, 2017 9:54:03 GMT -5
We have seen an increase in polarization in recent years; personally I am convinced that it is due to the current prevalence of social media as the primary theatre for discussion. Since we mostly discuss in what is essentially an anonymous fashion, many people abandon simple civility and revert to the most basic animalistic instincts, turning everything into, as you note, a pissing contest. They want to prove they're right, period, and are interested in what others say only insofar as it provides support for their own position or gives them something to attack. We see people insulting each other over politics, over religion, over science, over nutrition, and naturally over comics (because naturally, the matter of whether Thor can beat Squirrel Girl is worth calling some a #?%$). I think this a huge factor, and one of the reasons I largely avoid discussing politics or religion in online forums. I'll do those things plenty offline, but no more online political or religious debates for me. Heck, even apart from those topics, if I need to talk with someone about something that is even remotely sensitive or could be misread, I call them to speak with them in person. Online communication is missing too many physical social cues that disarm confrontational situations (eye contact, a smile, posture, tone of voice, facial expressions), and without them I find people often interpret online comments in the worst possible light, esp. in the area of politics or social issues. All we see is text and an opinion we disagree with, not a person with complex motives and reasons for believing what they do. I try to remember that behind every opinion, no matter how toxic it seems to me, is a person who has a story, who has reasons for believing what they do. You don't have to agree with the opinions, you don't even have to agree with the reasons, but you can at least try to make an attempt to understand why they got where they are. Because if I'm honest with myself, I can't say that I'm so inherently righteous or moral that I wouldn't have arrived at the same position if I had the experiences that other person did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 10:20:14 GMT -5
I try not to engage any discussion in my LCS concerning any Superhero and Villain as far who does what and who will win in any fight at all - I keep my opinion to myself and only myself.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 21, 2017 11:14:27 GMT -5
Keep in mind that anyone who uses the term "SJW" or "Social Justice Warrior" unironically is almost universally as pathetic little twerp with zero social skills who needs to be thumped upside the head until they can form a cogent thought.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 21, 2017 12:10:15 GMT -5
Keep in mind that anyone who uses the term "SJW" or "Social Justice Warrior" unironically is almost universally as pathetic little twerp with zero social skills who needs to be thumped upside the head until they can form a cogent thought. Hey, I use SJW unironically! (I may also be a pathetic twerp who deserves to be hit on the head, but that's a different matter). I think it's a fine word to describe individuals who tear their shirt when they decide that something innocuous must henceforth be considered a hate crime, and who insist that you're a fascist if you don't agree. Someone like a certain local politician who, two weeks ago, had a Mattise-like mural modified because it was somehow "an offence to women". (Clothes were painted over the characters). Banning clapping and whooping from public events because it excludes deaf people is acting like an SJW. Encouraging outrage against non-Mexican ladies selling burritos because they're guilty of cultural appropriation is acting like a SJW. As there is no readily available term to describe individuals who behave in such a fashion, SJW has its uses. Naturally, like "Nazi", it will often be used willy-nilly and inappropriately. Calling a vegetarian a SJW is as silly as calling a Trump supporter a Nazi. Calling someone who refuses to use the N word a SJW is as silly as calling someone who holds the door for a lady a sexist. Not everyone who expresses progressive ideas is a SJW; no more than everyone who expresses conservative ideas is a fascist. SJW is also fairly amusing as far as derogatory terms go, because of its quasi-oxymoronic combination of the terms "social justice" and "warrior", which seem to go as well together as "Brutal" and "Buddhism".
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Post by berkley on Sept 21, 2017 12:34:41 GMT -5
Keep in mind that anyone who uses the term "SJW" or "Social Justice Warrior" unironically is almost universally as pathetic little twerp with zero social skills who needs to be thumped upside the head until they can form a cogent thought. Hey, I use SJW unironically! (I may also be a pathetic twerp who deserves to be hit on the head, but that's a different matter). I think it's a fine word to describe individuals who tear their shirt when they decide that something innocuous must henceforth be considered a hate crime, and who insist that you're a fascist if you don't agree. Someone like a certain local politician who, two weeks ago, had a Mattise-like mural modified because it was somehow "an offence to women". (Clothes were painted over the characters). Banning clapping and whooping from public events because it excludes deaf people is acting like an SJW. Encouraging outrage against non-Mexican ladies selling burritos because they're guilty of cultural appropriation is acting like a SJW. As there is no readily available term to describe individuals who behave in such a fashion, SJW has its uses. Naturally, like "Nazi", it will often be used willy-nilly and inappropriately. Calling a vegetarian a SJW is as silly as calling a Trump supporter a Nazi. Calling someone who refuses to use the N word a SJW is as silly as calling someone who holds the door for a lady a sexist. Not everyone who expresses progressive ideas is a SJW; no more than everyone who expresses conservative ideas is a fascist. SJW is also fairly amusing as far as derogatory terms go, because of its quasi-oxymoronic combination the terms "social justice" and "warrior" that seem to go as well together as "Brutal" and "Buddhism". I sense a new comic book character in the making: Bill the Brutal Buddhist. Or maybe just The Brutal Buddhist, if it's a superhero series.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 21, 2017 12:43:46 GMT -5
Keep in mind that anyone who uses the term "SJW" or "Social Justice Warrior" unironically is almost universally as pathetic little twerp with zero social skills who needs to be thumped upside the head until they can form a cogent thought. Hey, I use SJW unironically! (I may also be a pathetic twerp who deserves to be hit on the head, but that's a different matter). I think it's a fine word to describe individuals who tear their shirt when they decide that something innocuous must henceforth be considered a hate crime, and who insist that you're a fascist if you don't agree. Someone like a certain local politician who, two weeks ago, had a Mattise-like mural modified because it was somehow "an offence to women". (Clothes were painted over the characters). Banning clapping and whooping from public events because it excludes deaf people is acting like an SJW. Encouraging outrage against non-Mexican ladies selling burritos because they're guilty of cultural appropriation is acting like a SJW. As there is no readily available term to describe individuals who behave in such a fashion, SJW has its uses. Naturally, like "Nazi", it will often be used willy-nilly and inappropriately. Calling a vegetarian a SJW is as silly as calling a Trump supporter a Nazi. Calling someone who refuses to use the N word a SJW is as silly as calling someone who holds the door for a lady a sexist. Not everyone who expresses progressive ideas is a SJW; no more than everyone who expresses conservative ideas is a fascist. SJW is also fairly amusing as far as derogatory terms go, because of its quasi-oxymoronic combination of the terms "social justice" and "warrior", which seem to go as well together as "Brutal" and "Buddhism". Remind me to thump you next time we see each other. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I find the term to be pretty much exactly like "Politically Correct." A term that means pretty much, I disagree with that person, but can't actually articulate why. I'll add that I'm perplexed as to when being in favor of social justice became a problem. I thought that's what we were supposed to strive for. The fact that there are dumbasses who say stupid stuff doesn't change that. I also have a hard time with promoting the use that has largely grown out of the alt-right/Men's Rights/gamergate ilk.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 21, 2017 13:11:50 GMT -5
Hey, I use SJW unironically! (I may also be a pathetic twerp who deserves to be hit on the head, but that's a different matter). I think it's a fine word to describe individuals who tear their shirt when they decide that something innocuous must henceforth be considered a hate crime, and who insist that you're a fascist if you don't agree. Someone like a certain local politician who, two weeks ago, had a Mattise-like mural modified because it was somehow "an offence to women". (Clothes were painted over the characters). Banning clapping and whooping from public events because it excludes deaf people is acting like an SJW. Encouraging outrage against non-Mexican ladies selling burritos because they're guilty of cultural appropriation is acting like a SJW. As there is no readily available term to describe individuals who behave in such a fashion, SJW has its uses. Naturally, like "Nazi", it will often be used willy-nilly and inappropriately. Calling a vegetarian a SJW is as silly as calling a Trump supporter a Nazi. Calling someone who refuses to use the N word a SJW is as silly as calling someone who holds the door for a lady a sexist. Not everyone who expresses progressive ideas is a SJW; no more than everyone who expresses conservative ideas is a fascist. SJW is also fairly amusing as far as derogatory terms go, because of its quasi-oxymoronic combination of the terms "social justice" and "warrior", which seem to go as well together as "Brutal" and "Buddhism". Remind me to thump you next time we see each other. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I find the term to be pretty much exactly like "Politically Correct." A term that means pretty much, I disagree with that person, but can't actually articulate why. I'll add that I'm perplexed as to when being in favor of social justice became a problem. I thought that's what we were supposed to strive for. The fact that there are dumbasses who say stupid stuff doesn't change that. I also have a hard time with promoting the use that has largely grown out of the alt-right/Men's Rights/gamergate ilk. It never did, but when certain ideas are pushed too far, they become their own opposite. The USSR was supposed to further a system in which workers would finally be free, but it turned into a very repressive regime when it forgot common sense. Extremism in anything leads to bad results. Preventing Caucasians from serving burritos is not social justice, I'm sure you'll agree. Making sure Americans of Mexican origin are not discriminated against by the government is social justice. Forbidding people to applaud after a public presentation because it might offend deaf people is not social justice. Making sure deaf people have access to information that is usually transmitted by sound waves is social justice. Calling a referee "blind" because he missed something on the tennis court is not an insult to the blind, and insisting that no one use the term "blind" is not social justice. Not using the N word, because of its strongly negative historical and social connotation, is social justice (or at least good manners). The vast majority of us can agree on where to trace the line between what is and what is not social justice, and the blurry zone between the two is kind of narrow (and should be open to discussion rather than immediate condemnation by either side). The main problem with pushing what is originally a progressive agenda too far is that it often backfires in the end. When a conservative group expresses its interest in more responsible government spending, in increased personal freedom, in respect for law-and-order, most people tend to agree or at least see the point. But if the same group adds that same-sex marriage is a sin and should be banned, that women who underwent abortions should go to jail or that immigration should be limited to White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, most of us will forget all about the sensible points and focus on the nonsense (and rightly so, I'd say). The same goes for the left. If important leftist advocacy groups start making the use of dozens of new gender pronouns and five different toilets as important as abortion rights and gay marriage, the majority of the population will say "s%$# this" and turn its back on the left. Which means things that actually promote social justice will get canned. I am thoroughly convinced that such a reaction explains a lot of the votes that Trump got in 2016. The ones I could engage in a civil discussion with were generally not enthused about the man, and disliked many points on his agenda. However, they were fed up with what they perceived as a Left gone wild. (I'd say that they were factually wrong about many things, but facts are not very relevant nowadays when we talk about perceptions).
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 21, 2017 13:13:22 GMT -5
Hey, I use SJW unironically! (I may also be a pathetic twerp who deserves to be hit on the head, but that's a different matter). I think it's a fine word to describe individuals who tear their shirt when they decide that something innocuous must henceforth be considered a hate crime, and who insist that you're a fascist if you don't agree. Someone like a certain local politician who, two weeks ago, had a Mattise-like mural modified because it was somehow "an offence to women". (Clothes were painted over the characters). Banning clapping and whooping from public events because it excludes deaf people is acting like an SJW. Encouraging outrage against non-Mexican ladies selling burritos because they're guilty of cultural appropriation is acting like a SJW. As there is no readily available term to describe individuals who behave in such a fashion, SJW has its uses. Naturally, like "Nazi", it will often be used willy-nilly and inappropriately. Calling a vegetarian a SJW is as silly as calling a Trump supporter a Nazi. Calling someone who refuses to use the N word a SJW is as silly as calling someone who holds the door for a lady a sexist. Not everyone who expresses progressive ideas is a SJW; no more than everyone who expresses conservative ideas is a fascist. SJW is also fairly amusing as far as derogatory terms go, because of its quasi-oxymoronic combination of the terms "social justice" and "warrior", which seem to go as well together as "Brutal" and "Buddhism". Remind me to thump you next time we see each other. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I find the term to be pretty much exactly like " Politically Correct." A term that means pretty much, I disagree with that person, but can't actually articulate why. I'll add that I'm perplexed as to when being in favor of social justice became a problem. I thought that's what we were supposed to strive for. The fact that there are dumbasses who say stupid stuff doesn't change that. I also have a hard time with promoting the use that has largely grown out of the alt-right/Men's Rights/gamergate ilk. I think both terms have two sides to them, while there are many times that when these terms are used I find myself shaking my head there are times where I find their use to be accurate. For instance, I shake my head when people say removing a copy of Tintin in the Congo from the children's section of a library is political correctness gone mad, but I think the use has merit when criticizing a local politician for spending money on replacing all the town's sewer covers because the have the word "manhole" stamped on them. And the same goes for SJW.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 14:51:58 GMT -5
I left it behind years ago; but that was due to general disinterest in what was being published, rather than people at my local shop. In person, I found things to be fairly cordial and never had problems with anyone in that environment. I've seen more venom online; but that is from typical cowards who use anonymity to elevate themselves by bringing others down. I can handle that bunch pretty easily; but, don't waste much time in their environments. I stopped going to the imdb boards for comic book movies, as they had more trolls than a Norwegian folk pageant. Everyone wanted to make everything DC vs Marvel, oblivious to the fact that the comic companies don't run the studios adapting their characters. They may be part of the same conglomerate; but, the publishing people have F-all say in the movies. They may give notes; but, the movie people tend to ignore them. Now, I'm assuming, based on your screen name and the "b***** comment" that you are female. So, that probably lends an element for which I have no experience. I'm a white Anglo-Saxon male and grew up in a small town, without real cliques in school. So, I've never had to face misogyny, racism, anti-semitism, or other prejudices, apart from stupid comments by younger idiots, when I was an adult and I just shook my head at them and walked away, or did a Cyrano and taunted them with their lack of creativity. - Yes I am and was with another woman when the incedent happened. Also, in a woman owned shop. The people making the comment were two lads on their 20's.Why someone would say that is probably because they have trouble with the opposite sex and felt threatened by someone disagreeing with them (again, assuming you are female). These days, it seems people have to have their tastes validated and someone not liking what they like makes them feel insecure and they lash out. Look at the state of politics and general discussions. Again, the internet lowers the discourse, due to lack of immediate consequences. My best advice is try not to let idiots like that bother you and recognize that it is their own insecurity at play, and focus on what you like. Again, I can't speak to the environment of your shop. If it is becoming oppressive, try an alternate, if available, or stick with communities like this. There are enough alternatives for getting comics that a shop that tolerates that kind of behavior doesn't have to be a fact My best general advice is be true to yourself and others will respond well to that; at least, the ones who really matter. Jack-asses like that don't matter and they know it. That's why they lash out. - The remark in question consisted of me telling my mate that I preferred the "blue Batman" of the 70's and early 80's because the new one is too broody and dark for my tastes. Just a comment in passing really as we looked over the racks. I can only assume this person disagreed with my assessment but even so, what a reaction.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 21, 2017 15:25:08 GMT -5
Calling a referee "blind" because he missed something on the tennis court is not an insult to the blind, and insisting that no one use the term "blind" is not social justice. The vast majority of us can agree on where to trace the line between what is and what is not social justice, and the blurry zone between the two is kind of narrow (and should be open to discussion rather than immediate condemnation by either side). I am going to play devil's advocate. Is calling an umpire "retarded", because he blew an obvious safe call at the plate, an insult to those with developmental disabilities, and is insisting that no one use the term "retarded" being a SJW? How about saying something is "gay"? Is that an insult to homosexual people when it is being used to describe something that is believed to be lame, and is insisting people not to say that being a SJW? Is calling a athlete "stupid" because he screwed up an insult to those of lower intellect, and is asking no one use that term being a SJW? How would you react if you were at a sports bar, enjoying some poutine and a Molson while watching the Canadiens, and you used the term "blind" when Carey Price lets in his fifth goal of the game in just the middle of the second period, only to see a blind person at the next table, well within earshot, having a bite to eat with friends? If they appeared to be hurt, would you apologize, or would you expect them to brush it off because you weren't really trying to insult them but rather just making fun of a goalie that was having a bad night? And why is "blind" OK, but "retarded" or "gay" (and maybe even "stupid") not, as they are all the result of genetics (with the understanding that blindness can occur due to injury or illness later on in life)? My point is, I don't know if it's safe to say that we can agree on where that line is. Everyone comes from a different experiential background, so what you believe is not insulting because it is not something you've had to deal with may be highly offensive to someone else who has had it impact their life.
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Post by Jesse on Sept 21, 2017 16:21:34 GMT -5
I simply don't deal with it and ignore it. I have no time in my life nor patience for negativity. It's absolutely silly how seriously some people take their funny books. That being said it's probably easier to ignore those types of people while avoiding social media in general. I made the mistake of reading the comments section on YouTube and Instagram before and will likely never do so again.
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