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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:00:37 GMT -5
I could argue that Hellboy hasn't grown despite it's quality because too much of the money spent within the industry is spent on the Marvel & DC lines (i.e those 20 versions of Batman or whatever you mention) and the clinging of the customer base to those stagnant characters and lines, leaving no room for growth of many books outside those lines, and the fact that Diamond thrives on the profits from those lines from DC and Marvel being sold on a non-returnable basis so unsatisfied customers are stuck with product they don't like or can't sell, and that Diamond has no incentive to broaden the market and potential audience for books like Hellboy as long as the status quo of selling the Marvle & DC lines to shopowners rather than end customers benefits them because of their monopoly and their restrictive business practices. I might also argue (though I don't know that I necessarily believe it) that Hellboy's growth was limited by diluting the brand and following the Marvel/DC model of trying to turn one story in one book into a line of books trying to gobble up market share that way. -M I don't think you can make that leap with anything really approaching any real degree of certainty. You can lead a horse to water for certain, but can you make it drink? I don't always like having to buy more than one series, or even more than one comic, to get a whole story and you and many here on this board don't like that style either...but there are other boards online full of people who believe differently and just positing that sales were larger back before this kind of writing became popular (and we liked those stories better) doesn't mean that change is necessarily a substantial part of the sales problem that the industry is facing. Part of the problem? Sure, I think that could be argued. But such a large part that if it were to go away that the industry would be substantially revived? No, I just don't see anything that would convince me of that being the case. Well let me ask you this-what types of comics are growing and which comics have become evergreen sellers? It's not monthly books featuring these long standing characters in ongoing stagnated stories. It's not trades collecting those stories appearing in monthlies?. Some of it is standalone stories that have beginning middle and end featuring some of those characters (Batman: DKR, Killing Joke, etc. fro example) but most of it is stuff outside that type of book. These other types of books have legs on the shelves, remain in print and have long term sales and growth. They keep finding new audiences. Those ongoing books clung to by the hardcore audience keep shrinking, not growing, and not finding new audiences. Even attempts to use those clung to characters in styles of books that are succeeding (ex. The Season One books from Marvel, the Marvel OGNs like Infinity Relativity etc. and the DC Earth One OGNS) have not shown the growth and long term potential sales and ability to stay in print and gain new audiences that other books in that style do. So it's not just the format or style that is responsible for the growth and the ability to find new audiences. Is an industry better off embracing the kinds of books that find new audiences and demonstrate growth or clinging to types of books that once had large audiences but have had shrinking audiences and declining sales for over 2 decades despite numerous attempts to revitalize those books (and despite the popularity of those characters in other mediums)? If it were my money, I know which way I would go. But it's not my money, so I get no say. I just watch as an outsider and see attempt after attempt to keep using those characters to revitalize sales fail, and wonder when they might actually learn form their mistakes instead of repeating their failures. -M |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 25, 2017 21:12:02 GMT -5
I don't think you can make that leap with anything really approaching any real degree of certainty. You can lead a horse to water for certain, but can you make it drink? I don't always like having to buy more than one series, or even more than one comic, to get a whole story and you and many here on this board don't like that style either...but there are other boards online full of people who believe differently and just positing that sales were larger back before this kind of writing became popular (and we liked those stories better) doesn't mean that change is necessarily a substantial part of the sales problem that the industry is facing. Part of the problem? Sure, I think that could be argued. But such a large part that if it were to go away that the industry would be substantially revived? No, I just don't see anything that would convince me of that being the case. Well let me ask you this-what types of comics are growing and which comics have become evergreen sellers? It's not monthly books featuring these long standing characters in ongoing stagnated stories. It's not trades collecting those stories appearing in monthlies?. Some of it is standalone stories that have beginning middle and end featuring some of those characters (Batman: DKR, Killing Joke, etc. fro example) but most of it is stuff outside that type of book. These other types of books have legs on the shelves, remain in print and have long term sales and growth. They keep finding new audiences. Those ongoing books clung to by the hardcore audience keep shrinking, not growing, and not finding new audiences. Even attempts to use those clung to characters in styles of books that are succeeding (ex. The Season One books from Marvel, the Marvel OGNs like Infinity Relativity etc. and the DC Earth One OGNS) have not shown the growth and long term potential sales and ability to stay in print and gain new audiences that other books in that style do. So it's not just the format or style that is responsible for the growth and the ability to find new audiences. Is an industry better off embracing the kinds of books that find new audiences and demonstrate growth or clinging to types of books that once had large audiences but have had shrinking audiences and declining sales for over 2 decades despite numerous attempts to revitalize those books (and despite the popularity of those characters in other mediums)? If it were my money, I know which way I would go. But it's not my money, so I get no say. I just watch as an outsider and see attempt after attempt to keep using those characters to revitalize sales fail, and wonder when they might actually learn form their mistakes instead of repeating their failures. -M Are they finding significantly larger audiences as to point to them as a solution though? Or are those sales made up largely of the same audience that's also enjoying the continuing adventures of Superman? I buy Saga, and the Walking Dead in trade for instance but am also really enjoying Supersons and Superman and I bet I'm not alone. I don't think you can definitively say it is the former, which makes the argument that the industry would be better off following in that style very difficult to believe. Call me a pessimist, but I think the industry is a serious niche form of entertainment and it's continued viability has more to do with the unknowable whims of culture than anything that can be substantially bettered by either a change in format, genre or style. As I said, Manga has an incredible variety of all three of those elements and yet it continues to decline in sales so why would the American comic industry be any different? |
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Post by Spike-X on Jul 25, 2017 21:35:05 GMT -5
The thing is even if the publishing houses of Marvel and DC were to collapse, the characters and trademarks would still belong to Disney and WB, so the characters would remain locked up. The copyrights might fall to public domain, but the trademarks (which is what you need to really put new products featuring those characters and using their likeness/names) will remain with the corporate rights holders as long as they continue to use the characters in some medium. The best possible outcome for the industry would be for audiences to move on from the stagnated characters clutched onto by Marvel & DC and their corporate bosses and to embrace a new wave of stories and characters and support these with their dollars. But the audiences don't, so the viability of the industry to grow and change is limited by people clutching to the creations of the past rather than supporting the new and creative. -M Or maybe they're not clutching but actually enjoying what they're reading? No, you're wrong. How could people possibly enjoy comics that I don't enjoy reading myself? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:42:09 GMT -5
Well let me ask you this-what types of comics are growing and which comics have become evergreen sellers? It's not monthly books featuring these long standing characters in ongoing stagnated stories. It's not trades collecting those stories appearing in monthlies?. Some of it is standalone stories that have beginning middle and end featuring some of those characters (Batman: DKR, Killing Joke, etc. fro example) but most of it is stuff outside that type of book. These other types of books have legs on the shelves, remain in print and have long term sales and growth. They keep finding new audiences. Those ongoing books clung to by the hardcore audience keep shrinking, not growing, and not finding new audiences. Even attempts to use those clung to characters in styles of books that are succeeding (ex. The Season One books from Marvel, the Marvel OGNs like Infinity Relativity etc. and the DC Earth One OGNS) have not shown the growth and long term potential sales and ability to stay in print and gain new audiences that other books in that style do. So it's not just the format or style that is responsible for the growth and the ability to find new audiences. Is an industry better off embracing the kinds of books that find new audiences and demonstrate growth or clinging to types of books that once had large audiences but have had shrinking audiences and declining sales for over 2 decades despite numerous attempts to revitalize those books (and despite the popularity of those characters in other mediums)? If it were my money, I know which way I would go. But it's not my money, so I get no say. I just watch as an outsider and see attempt after attempt to keep using those characters to revitalize sales fail, and wonder when they might actually learn form their mistakes instead of repeating their failures. -M Are they finding significantly larger audiences as to point to them as a solution though? Or are those sales made up largely of the same audience that's also enjoying the continuing adventures of Superman? I buy Saga, and the Walking Dead in trade for instance but am also really enjoying Supersons and Superman and I bet I'm not alone. I don't think you can definitively say it is the former, which makes the argument that the industry would be better off following in that style very difficult to believe. Call me a pessimist, but I think the industry is a serious niche form of entertainment and it's continued viability has more to do with the unknowable whims of culture than anything that can be substantially bettered by either a change in format, genre or style. As I said, Manga has an incredible variety of all three of those elements and yet it continues to decline in sales so why would the American comic industry be any different? The growth and the status of books as evergreen sellers though has nothing to do with the Diamond direct market, it is in the book trade and places like Amazon where it is finding new audiences and achieving growth and those markets give two sh*ts about the continuing adventures of Superman. They might buy a really "good" done in one Superman story or collection of they like Superman (something like All Star Superman or Superman Red Son) but are not the market that will support or care about a monthly book featuring the neverending story of Superman. If you look at growth markets for comics-Europe for instance where a new Asterix volumes has millions in preorders, you can see potential growth for comics in the book trade here, where it is currently growing and achieving some level of sustained sales, just not monthly ongoing books or trade collections of those. Major booksellers are buying into the graphic novel market and finding sales success, but they are not using stagnant ongoing characters, looking for monthly floppy sales or dependent on Diamond's limited scope of niche destination shops for their sales. If the industry is going to find success and growth (and that's a huge if, there's no guarantee they will) it will be in finding a way to tap that market because it has growth potential. The Diamond direct market does not. But the product that has defined the Diamond direct market is not one that has a chance in succeeding outside of it any more either, so if they are going to tap that market they need to create products that can sell there. They may crash and burn, but they could succeed. If they keep on keeping on with what they are doing, the will continue to die the slow death they have been dying for decades now. Lee and Didio finally recognized something different needs to be done, but they might have too much of an emic point of view being inside the direct market of the industry for too long to really see viable paths out of it. Most American comic fans have the same emic view issues, they can't see a comics market outside the monthly super-hero comics that have been the industry staple for the past half-century, but what was once the fuel for the growth and success of the industry in the 20th century has become the albatross holding back the growth of the industry in the 21st century. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:48:12 GMT -5
Or maybe they're not clutching but actually enjoying what they're reading? No, you're wrong. How could people possibly enjoy comics that I don't enjoy reading myself? I still like a lot of modern monthly comics and super-hero fare, and I am sure there are lots of people that do, and thats good for them, the question is are there enough of those people to sustain an industry? Sales trends and indicators don't seem to give a positive answer for that. It's not about what I like or don't like, it's about what the industry needs to do to find sustainable sales and new audiences so they can remain viable. If super-hero monthlies could still achieve that one of the countless attempts to revitalize the industry with them would have shown some indications of success, but they haven't. Sales still trend downwards and despite bumps for #1s and variants covers, attrition still shows a loss of customers rather than growth in the direct market. My like or dislike has nothing to do with the success or growth potential of the market. I'd love to see a healthy market where sales on monthly books featuring these characters were thriving. But they're not despite those characters being more popular than at any point in the last half century via success in other mediums. -M |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 26, 2017 8:00:59 GMT -5
Are they finding significantly larger audiences as to point to them as a solution though? Or are those sales made up largely of the same audience that's also enjoying the continuing adventures of Superman? I buy Saga, and the Walking Dead in trade for instance but am also really enjoying Supersons and Superman and I bet I'm not alone. I don't think you can definitively say it is the former, which makes the argument that the industry would be better off following in that style very difficult to believe. Call me a pessimist, but I think the industry is a serious niche form of entertainment and it's continued viability has more to do with the unknowable whims of culture than anything that can be substantially bettered by either a change in format, genre or style. As I said, Manga has an incredible variety of all three of those elements and yet it continues to decline in sales so why would the American comic industry be any different? The growth and the status of books as evergreen sellers though has nothing to do with the Diamond direct market, it is in the book trade and places like Amazon where it is finding new audiences and achieving growth and those markets give two sh*ts about the continuing adventures of Superman. They might buy a really "good" done in one Superman story or collection of they like Superman (something like All Star Superman or Superman Red Son) but are not the market that will support or care about a monthly book featuring the neverending story of Superman. If you look at growth markets for comics-Europe for instance where a new Asterix volumes has millions in preorders, you can see potential growth for comics in the book trade here, where it is currently growing and achieving some level of sustained sales, just not monthly ongoing books or trade collections of those. Major booksellers are buying into the graphic novel market and finding sales success, but they are not using stagnant ongoing characters, looking for monthly floppy sales or dependent on Diamond's limited scope of niche destination shops for their sales. If the industry is going to find success and growth (and that's a huge if, there's no guarantee they will) it will be in finding a way to tap that market because it has growth potential. The Diamond direct market does not. But the product that has defined the Diamond direct market is not one that has a chance in succeeding outside of it any more either, so if they are going to tap that market they need to create products that can sell there. They may crash and burn, but they could succeed. If they keep on keeping on with what they are doing, the will continue to die the slow death they have been dying for decades now. Lee and Didio finally recognized something different needs to be done, but they might have too much of an emic point of view being inside the direct market of the industry for too long to really see viable paths out of it. Most American comic fans have the same emic view issues, they can't see a comics market outside the monthly super-hero comics that have been the industry staple for the past half-century, but what was once the fuel for the growth and success of the industry in the 20th century has become the albatross holding back the growth of the industry in the 21st century. -M Again, though are those sales outside of diamond made up of an actually different audience? I tend to buy my trades on Amazon or Barnes and Noble because they are cheaper...and again I'm not alone so does breaking outside of the Diamond distribution really a sign for health and growth for the industry or is it just more of the same audience buying through another channel? I don't think you've presented any evidence to say that it's really reaching a substantially new audience so I don't think you can point to the style and substance of the monthlies and say this is why the industry is dwindling when there are much larger cultural factors at work than that. |
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Post by hondobrode on Jul 26, 2017 10:19:28 GMT -5
I've heard the doom and gloom of comics, like newspaper, for years.
Using old metrics, yes, circulation is down, like across most media, simply because there is more competition and more channels and models.
Comics have survived and will survive.
Will they continue to change with the times and experiment ?
Yes
Will we ever see the grand old sales model or circulation figures of the Golden Age ? I highly doubt it.
I've heard this same thing for non-subscriber radio (AM or FM radio), and network tv as well.
They've all survived, different from before, but alive.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 26, 2017 12:18:51 GMT -5
Here's an idea for DC, to improve their performance: a change in management. It seems the current one isn't getting the job done. Maybe they should try someone else.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 27, 2017 0:35:57 GMT -5
Here's an idea for DC, to improve their performance: a change in management. It seems the current one isn't getting the job done. Maybe they should try someone else. Yeah, I'm a little puzzled at the job security of the current Marvel and DC regimes. In times past, with a few exceptions of course, line-wide declines in sales usually led to an EIC getting terminated, yet Lee/DiDio seem entrenched to the point that they can't seem to fail. It seems like a similar situation with Quesada/Alonzo. I get that John's is basically heading the movie/TV division, so he's safe as long as those keep on being a success. Either DC Entertainment simply gives the comics publishing division more leeway nowadays, since it's no longer their bread and butter, or those guys are great at politics and have friends entrenched in the right places. |
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 29, 2017 13:24:05 GMT -5
There is a lot that I find wrong with this statement. DC was not perfect during the 90's, but I can maybe think of a meager handful of mainline titles that decided to go full on dark besides the numerous Batman titles. Even then, the company was probably at it's absolute peak during the late 90's to early 00's
Marvel's the one going back to how chaotic it was as a company during the 90's
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 1, 2017 0:40:31 GMT -5
I think Marvel and DC have been in denial about what they have traditionally done best: inventive all-age comics. That's what Stan and Jack did and I'd even argue that something like Miller's Daredevil would fall under that umbrella, at least by today's standards. Watchmen and DKR's were exceptions that should have never been the rule, but too little too late, as they say.
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Post by Spike-X on Aug 2, 2017 3:46:30 GMT -5
Well, just when you think it's all downhill for DC, they announce something new and innovative - Superman Year One, to be written by none other than that rising star of the comics scene, Frank Miller. Yes, finally DC will be giving us a look at the criminally under-explored early days of Superman's career in the cape and tights, something never before attempted in the character's nearly eighty year history.
Boy, I bet all the people who think DC are just constantly re-doing the same thing over and over instead of coming up with something new and different sure feel silly now, huh?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 2, 2017 15:12:12 GMT -5
Well, just when you think it's all downhill for DC, they announce something new and innovative - Superman Year One, to be written by none other than that rising star of the comics scene, Frank Miller. Yes, finally DC will be giving us a look at the criminally under-explored early days of Superman's career in the cape and tights, something never before attempted in the character's nearly eighty year history. My first reaction was "again?" - I had a flashback to Superman: the secret years, which is essentially Superman year one and had Frank Miller covers. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 2, 2017 15:53:59 GMT -5
Well, just when you think it's all downhill for DC, they announce something new and innovative - Superman Year One, to be written by none other than that rising star of the comics scene, Frank Miller. Yes, finally DC will be giving us a look at the criminally under-explored early days of Superman's career in the cape and tights, something never before attempted in the character's nearly eighty year history. My first reaction was "again?" - I had a flashback to Superman: the secret years, which is essentially Superman year one and had Frank Miller covers. You'll seldom go wrong telling super-hero fans the same story again and again and again and... |
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Post by earl on Aug 4, 2017 7:48:02 GMT -5
Comics I think are doing fine, I just think the Marvel/DC superhero axis is starting to finally tip over. Newer comic readers are not getting hooked on those characters, they are getting into other types of comics out there. Local stores around here seem to get rid of more and more back issues and stock more trades too. I think their numbers would even look worse if they took out the excess retailers often buy to get limited cover issues.
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