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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 13, 2017 23:40:23 GMT -5
For example, it's rather claear that the bulk of members here have been to major conventions, for decades. A safe bet would be that more than half of the members here attented their first 'Con' before 1991 or so.
Since 1991, arguably before 1991, Wiccans have been attending Cons, and have been part of 'our Community'.
On top of that, Norse Pagans (and Norse Neo-Pagans; there's a difference) have been attending Cons and events. I am not referring to any neo-fascists whom sport nordic or saxon runes via tattoos, by the way. Neo Pagans and Neo Fascists are to each other what Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Felarca are to each other. Or Milo vs. William F. Buckley Jr.
These Pagan Folk seem to be a rising demographic in that 'other comic-book-appreciation-digital-community' (yet sadly outnumbered there by faux-pagans).
Their traditions go back to times before King Tut. They had their versions of 'church', as well... Newgrange springs to mind.
They pay taxes. They vote. They break no secular laws, or at least no more than members of Abrahamic Offshoot religions do.
Do not their versions of a 'church' matter, in regards to 'church being important to marriaage'?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 14, 2017 17:14:34 GMT -5
so, wildfire2099, I really want to sociologically discuss plagiarism today, but you've been very respectful and adroit re your points on the topic of marriage, so in mutual respect, no 'gotcha' bullpuckey, I'd like to explore that, but only if YOU wish to. Specifically on the definition of 'church'. I hasten to add a qualifier: I don't 'mosque' vs synagogue vs cathedral; I'm not going PBS/NPR here, at all. I do admit I'll be going a bit anthropological. There are spiritual and metaphysical practices and/or institutions which predate Hebrew/Christian/Muslim. They survive, with few members but members still, in the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK and Ireland. May we discuss them, too, please? Sure.. any religion at all is fine... I use 'church' in the sense of a religious organization, not a building. (I remember a while back there was a movement to get 'Jedi' as an official religion in UK) My point is that the moral objections people have can be totally separated from the legal necessities.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 14, 2017 19:27:28 GMT -5
The French have got it right: all marriages, to be seen as legal, must be performed by a civil servant (usually a mayor or the equivalent). If people also want a religious ceremony, it's their own affair; but the civil marriage is THE one that is recognized by the state.
We have the same thing here in Quebec: when a priest oversees a marriage, he doubles as a civil servant, but the marriage itself is first and foremost a state affair, a legally binding contract between two individuals.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 15, 2017 10:19:54 GMT -5
The French have got it right: all marriages, to be seen as legal, must be performed by a civil servant (usually a mayor or the equivalent). If people also want a religious ceremony, it's their own affair; but the civil marriage is THE one that is recognized by the state. We have the same thing here in Quebec: when a priest oversees a marriage, he doubles as a civil servant, but the marriage itself is first and foremost a state affair, a legally binding contract between two individuals. yes, that's exactly what I was saying.. I didn't realize the French did it that way.. excellent
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Post by LovesGilKane on Jul 19, 2017 0:19:46 GMT -5
This kinda brings us to the topic of 'what is marriage in general'.
Is the focus 'how can we pay the bills together, and maybe enjoy a bit of romance and decent sex?'
Is it primarily romantic, 2 people determined to stay together because of 'the crush feeling' despite stressors of finances and possible sexual incompatibilities?
Or is marriage primarily sexual, while making allowances for sexual compatibility (or not) and 'paying the bills together' (ot not)?
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 19, 2017 9:18:35 GMT -5
I got married because I loved someone and wanted to be sexually exclusive to them, and marriage, as an idea or tradition is a important part because it vocally shows my commitment to her. The legal part of it is just a plus. In that aspect I am old fashioned. But for others that want to be in a committed relationship with someone without marriage, I don't find that any less of a commitment than marriage.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 19, 2017 9:41:51 GMT -5
This kinda brings us to the topic of 'what is marriage in general'. Is the focus 'how can we pay the bills together, and maybe enjoy a bit of romance and decent sex?' Is it primarily romantic, 2 people determined to stay together because of 'the crush feeling' despite stressors of finances and possible sexual incompatibilities? Or is marriage primarily sexual, while making allowances for sexual compatibility (or not) and 'paying the bills together' (ot not)? Whatever it is today, it was clearly born out of a practical view on a biological imperative. The founding of a new family by marriage meant that new babies would be born, carrying the genes of the grandparents. That new family would also take with it part of the material wealth of said grandparents (either immediately or by inheritance), and so it was in everyone's interest to secure the best deal possible on all accounts. The bride and groom must look like they can produce healthy babies and they must have the financial means and/or the personal resources to raise the next generation without everyone ending up dead. If the bride and groom liked each other so much the better, since a harmonious couple is more likely to be successful than one where strife is constant, but as so many arranged marriages showed throughout history, it was not the principal point. As societies became more affluent, individuals became more and more able to make it in life without being dependent on their family. This allowed marriages to be considered by the couple instead of their respective families, but the general idea was usually still to found a family. As with many ancient structures, the initial purpose of this institution has evolved and morphed into something different; reproduction is no longer such an important aspect of marriage (or perhaps I should say "such a universal aspect", since it is still at the core of many cultures' view on the matter). More and more we see marriages which are just about two persons loving each other and vowing to spend their life together. This made the eventual development of same-sex marriage a no-brainer. When kids are desired but direct reproduction is impossible, we see couple adopt children and them their values (if not their genes), thus transposing the primal biological drive into a more moral and intellectual one (but still with the basic idea of raising the next generation). Marriage evolves. Good thing too, because I didn't have to bring five cows to my father-in-law to obtain his permission to marry his daughter!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 19, 2017 10:27:41 GMT -5
A bit of comparative religion: In the recent past, while visiting the backcountry, I came across two churches with their respective roadside billboards. One was an Adventist church, and its message was "The salary of sin is DEATH". The other was an Anglican church and its message was "Strawberry shortcake". If I ever became religious, I know which one I would opt for!
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Post by Rob Allen on Jul 19, 2017 11:22:20 GMT -5
One was an Adventist church, and its message was "The salary of sin is DEATH". Did it really say "salary"? The usual translation of Romans 6:23 is "For the wages of sin is death ..." Maybe the church was in an affluent area.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 19, 2017 12:01:50 GMT -5
One was an Adventist church, and its message was "The salary of sin is DEATH". Did it really say "salary"? The usual translation of Romans 6:23 is "For the wages of sin is death ..." Maybe the church was in an affluent area. I was translating from the French, so the error is mine ("salary" and "wages" are translated by the same word in our gallic language). As for affluence, I wouldn't know... but they didn't offer any cake.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 19, 2017 12:13:07 GMT -5
Did it really say "salary"? The usual translation of Romans 6:23 is "For the wages of sin is death ..." Maybe the church was in an affluent area. I was translating from the French, so the error is mine ("salary" and "wages" are translated by the same word in our gallic language). As for affluence, I wouldn't know... but they didn't offer any cake. How well did that work for Marie Antoinette? Yes I know it's apocryphal.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 19, 2017 12:15:53 GMT -5
I was translating from the French, so the error is mine ("salary" and "wages" are translated by the same word in our gallic language). As for affluence, I wouldn't know... but they didn't offer any cake. How well did that work for Marie Antoinette? Yes I know it's apocryphal. She clearly should have offered cake.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 19, 2017 18:20:27 GMT -5
This kinda brings us to the topic of 'what is marriage in general'. Is the focus 'how can we pay the bills together, and maybe enjoy a bit of romance and decent sex?' Is it primarily romantic, 2 people determined to stay together because of 'the crush feeling' despite stressors of finances and possible sexual incompatibilities? Or is marriage primarily sexual, while making allowances for sexual compatibility (or not) and 'paying the bills together' (ot not) I think that's alot of the issue.. it has changed. Back 500 years ago, the law was centered around religious values, and most people in a given region had the same value set. It made sense to have marriage be the same in a spiritual, religious, and legal sense. There was also certainly an element of the woman being unable to provide for her children without 'forcing' the man to do so for her. Now, we have freedom of religion, separation of church and state, and if not equal rights, at least a society where anyone can make it on their own if they choose. Heck, you can even have a family on your own (through either adoption of artificial means) if you want. In legal terms, I think the focus should be 'person I share my financial and legal life with'. I don't see any reason why religious beliefs should have anything to do with inheritance, health insurance, or child custody. In personal/relgious terms, it should be whatever the two people involved want it to be, as long as both agree and there are no sheninigans going on.
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Post by Spike-X on Jul 19, 2017 19:01:11 GMT -5
A bit of comparative religion: In the recent past, while visiting the backcountry, I came across two churches with their respective roadside billboards. One was an Adventist church, and its message was "The salary of sin is DEATH". The other was an Anglican church and its message was "Strawberry shortcake". If I ever become religious, I know which one I would opt for! So the choice was literally, "Cake...or DEATH?!"
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 19, 2017 19:02:57 GMT -5
An Eddie Izzard fan!
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