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Post by tarkintino on Oct 19, 2020 18:47:56 GMT -5
When if ever did Spidey Jump the Shark? Temporary shark-jumping with the original clone stories. Initially, Lee wanted Gwen to be resurrected after the torrential backlash they received for killing her, but Conway, et al., ended up using a plot that even in 2020 is just nonsensical. Thankfully, the title corrected course after that lengthy detour. About the annual: always a favorite, with the focus on Peter's feelings of being "lost" in never knowing about his parents, with their background naturally bringing him into the larger Marvel world--then sending him back to his usual state just as naturally. I loved how the Red Skull both complimented, then dressed down Spider-Man in this exchange: Spider-Man: "I've heard about you--read about you--ever since I can remember! But from all of the accounts of how dangerous you are, I'd have guessed you'd be ten feet tall--and about as broad as the Hulk!"Red Skull: "And I would have thought that you would be far more formidable-looking yourself, Spider-Man! Why, compared to my accursed arch-enemy Captain America, you're no more than a spindly scarecrow!"In just a few lines of dialogue, the Marvel Universe expanded a bit by establishing that its Timely/Atlas past was (in-universe) history exposed to just about anyone--including young Peter Parker ( "...ever since I can remember!"). That, and if a villain on the level of the Red Skull knows who Spider-Man is, one can imagine other, larger villain groups would, too. Oh, and the "spindly scarecrow" comparison barb also reminded the reader that yes, Cap is a big guy. With this kind of great drama, it was no wonder why The Amazing Spider-Man overtook the Fantastic Four as Marvel's top seller. The character was at the height of his powers--and was not finished growing. Wonderful.
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Post by chadwilliam on Oct 19, 2020 20:05:02 GMT -5
I don't know if Stan Lee ever could "jump the shark" with Spider-Man, but the idea that Peter Parker's parents were spies who crossed paths with The Red Skull sounds like the sort of misstep he, in very rare instances, made with the character. ie. Lee originally envisioned The Green Goblin as a statue which came to life under demonic influence, I believe, before Ditko intervened and came up with something more down to Earth. Spider-Man battling aliens in his second issue doesn't feel quite right for the character (shared universe or not) also, but I guess it was early days and all characters undergo a sort of period where they fumble around in the dark for what they are before things settle into place. A Sydney Greenstreet inspired Vulture was reworked by Ditko as perhaps another instance where Lee overlooked how incongruous a girthful flying villain might look. In other words, it seems like Lee could get carried away once in a while (and who can blame him when you're playing in the Marvel Universe?) and he'd have a Ditko or a Kirby to rein him in. I suspect that this Annual gives you some indication of what sort of plots Lee might have come up without such a partnership (and I'd say the same for six-armed Spider-Man too, down the road).
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Post by String on Oct 25, 2020 11:11:04 GMT -5
The story was reprinted in Marvel Tales #264-5, with rather wonky new covers by Brian Stelfreeze. Wow, it took two issues to reprint this? The reprint of ASM Annual #1 in MT #150 only needed one issue. Did they reprint the bonus parts as well? I have yet to read this annual but knowing current publishing trends, yeah, I could see this a multi-part event. Of course, you'd need quite a few one-shot editions, at least two showing how this reveal/event affect Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen. Probably another one-shot showing his parents' actual encounter with Red Skull from the past, maybe even a tie-in with a Captain America one-shot with how all of this affects him. There's plenty of money to made here for sure.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 25, 2020 12:36:01 GMT -5
The story was reprinted in Marvel Tales #264-5, with rather wonky new covers by Brian Stelfreeze. Wow, it took two issues to reprint this? The reprint of ASM Annual #1 in MT #150 only needed one issue. Did they reprint the bonus parts as well? MT #150 was a so-called double size issue, whereas #264-5 were standard size. I don't think any of the bonus material from Annual #5 was reprinted, but the bonus stuff from Annual #1 turned up in other issues. GCD's notes for MT #150 say: "Story is reprinted in wrong place in continuity (several villains aren't introduced until future issues) In this reprint, alterations are made to the dialogue and artwork so that Spider-Man no longer grounds himself before facing Electro. Aunt May bemoans missing The Dukes of Hazzard (while kidnapped). The Beverly Hillbillies in the original."
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 25, 2020 12:45:28 GMT -5
In several interviews he gave in the 1990s, John Romita revealed that from the moment he replaced Steve Ditko on Spider-Man, he was the "de facto editor" on the book. HE wrote the stories, with his editor occasionally "course-correcting" (I.E., being a "back-seat driver") when it came to certain things. ("Make Gwen nicer." "Make Gwen prettier." Have Pete & Gwen get serious." "Make MJ UGLIER." heh) Man, did Stan Lee steal your bike or shag with your wife or something? We get it. You don't like Stan Lee. But this constant bashing and belittling of his contributions to Marvel's Silver Age output is starting to get repetitive and also a little obsessive sounding. It's also wildly exaggerated, frankly. I know that Ditko, Romita and Kirby did a lot of the heavy lifting story telling-wise, but they didn't do it all. Not by a long shot. You also never produce any reliable sources to support your accusations. I mean, it's up to you what you post, of course, but it's puzzling to me why you'd spend so much time typing negative stuff about Lee. All. The. Time. If by "wrote the story" you mean that they worked off a plot given by Lee, then I understand. I don't believe they came up with the plot and after drawing it, they gave it to Lee just to dialogue. No, I don't believe that.
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 25, 2020 13:10:12 GMT -5
Man, did Stan Lee steal your bike or shag with your wife or something? We get it. You don't like Stan Lee. But this constant bashing and belittling of his contributions to Marvel's Silver Age output is starting to get repetitive and also a little obsessive sounding. It's also wildly exaggerated, frankly. I know that Ditko, Romita and Kirby did a lot of the heavy lifting story telling-wise, but they didn't do it all. Not by a long shot. You also never produce any reliable sources to support your accusations. I mean, it's up to you what you post, of course, but it's puzzling to me why you'd spend so much time typing negative stuff about Lee. All. The. Time. If by "wrote the story" you mean that they worked off a plot given by Lee, then I understand. I don't believe they came up with the plot and after drawing it, they gave it to Lee just to dialogue. No, I don't believe that. No, and if someone actually read how the story process was not an across-the-board working experience, then such accusations against Lee would not be repeated. I've said he was not the "mastermind" some latter-day Marvel fans have bought into, but without him, its difficult to say the Silver Age of Marvel--and its future--would have happened at all.
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Post by beccabear67 on Oct 26, 2020 15:33:17 GMT -5
I guess I knew of the parents as spies thing from a '90s minus 1 Flashback comic. It had an adventure of the Parkers in one title (Romita Sr.!). Another showed Uncle Ben as having a collection of '40s Marvel comics a young Peter found. I wasn't sure how canonical these things were, I guess they are/were? Orphan main characters are a staple of children's literature, having them having been spies seems a bit more unique (and yet contributed to the de-uniquing of the Spider-verse where so many of the cast just happen to be extraordinary in some way).
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 26, 2020 18:31:43 GMT -5
There's a LOT here, but the entire thing is worth reading.
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Post by Farrar on Nov 4, 2020 21:09:52 GMT -5
I love this annual a lot too: great, pluse pounding story from Stan Lee, lovely artwork from Larry Lieber and Mike Esposito, who are both doing their best John Romita impression here. GCD says "John Romita wrote that he worked very closely, page by page, with Larry Lieber, in laying out the story and assisting with the pencils, on this issue." In several interviews he gave in the 1990s, John Romita revealed that from the moment he replaced Steve Ditko on Spider-Man, he was the "de facto editor" on the book. …. Even when other artists were recruited (Don Heck, Larry Lieber, Jim Mooney, John Buscema, Gil Kane, Jim Starlin!), Romita was the driving force behind the stories. He once complained that the system he worked out with Buscema was actually FAR MORE time-consuming than if he'd just done the damned pages HIMSELF. (" THIS is supposed to save me time?", he apparently once asked. Romita Sr. was certainly Stan's right-hand man in 1960s Marvel. Romita had done some work for Stan during the Atlas days (including a couple of issues of the 1950s revival of Captain America); the story goes that in the mid-1950s Stan sent young John to see Stan's favorite artist Joe Maneely for tips, and Joe showed John how to depict bone structure by feathering the cheekbone area. Ever since I read that, I always make it a point to examine the cheekbones in Maneely's and Romita's art . Anyway to get Romita to come to Marvel in the mid-1960s, Stan gave in to one of Romita's concessions: that John be allowed to work at the office, as Romita was worried he wouldn't be able to concentrate at home (most freelancers worked at home during that era). Of course at that time the Marvel "office" was a cramped room, with people like Roy Thomas and few others (usually people who did production stuff including M. Severin, Verpooten, Trimpe later on) in it. Stan, who was a long-time staff employee of Martin Goodman's, had his own office. But this meant that Romita was right there on hand at the Marvel office to help Stan and help he did. Romita was more than an inker (Avengers) and then penciler (DD, ASM). He did a ton of art corrections, or should I say art changes, for Stan, who was always looking over all the completed art and when Lee wanted changes--for story clarity, for example --there was Romita, available to "correct" the art. And Romita continued to do this extra work even when he took over the penciling of ASM. Romita and Stan got along, Stan trusted him, Romita knew what Stan wanted. Romita was notoriously and self-admittedly, painstakingly "slow" when doing full pencils so Stan had him do layouts for others (this also freed Romita up to more of the production work on other artists completed work)...but as prof011 said, when Romita did layouts for Spidey "to save time" but he would often go back over the penciler's work and touch it up, or finish it, or ink it--so he was doing more work on Spidey, not less! But Romita's Spidey was the house look, and it was worth its weight in gold. As Marvel grew and Stan's corporate duties and responsibilities increased, Romita eventually stood in for Stan for ASM story conferences and was the one who liaised with ASM artists such as Heck, Gil Kane, and others. Spidey was Romita's book, even when he stopped doing full pencils for it. Romita was put on staff (as opposed to being freelance) after a while. Some books I like that detail John Romita's contributions at Marvel during this time (mid-late '60s, and also later) are TwoMorrow's John Romita and All That Jazz; The Romita Legacy by Tom Spurgeon; and The Art of John Romita. These provide a lot of background and first-hand reminiscences.
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 5, 2020 7:45:34 GMT -5
GCD says "John Romita wrote that he worked very closely, page by page, with Larry Lieber, in laying out the story and assisting with the pencils, on this issue." In several interviews he gave in the 1990s, John Romita revealed that from the moment he replaced Steve Ditko on Spider-Man, he was the "de facto editor" on the book. …. Even when other artists were recruited (Don Heck, Larry Lieber, Jim Mooney, John Buscema, Gil Kane, Jim Starlin!), Romita was the driving force behind the stories. He once complained that the system he worked out with Buscema was actually FAR MORE time-consuming than if he'd just done the damned pages HIMSELF. (" THIS is supposed to save me time?", he apparently once asked. Romita Sr. was certainly Stan's right-hand man in 1960s Marvel. Romita had done some work for Stan during the Atlas days (including a couple of issues of the 1950s revival of Captain America); the story goes that in the mid-1950s Stan sent young John to see Stan's favorite artist Joe Maneely for tips, and Joe showed John how to depict bone structure by feathering the cheekbone area. Ever since I read that, I always make it a point to examine the cheekbones in Maneely's and Romita's art . Anyway to get Romita to come to Marvel in the mid-1960s, Stan gave in to one of Romita's concessions: that John be allowed to work at the office, as Romita was worried he wouldn't be able to concentrate at home (most freelancers worked at home during that era). Of course at that time the Marvel "office" was a cramped room, with people like Roy Thomas and few others (usually people who did production stuff including M. Severin, Verpooten, Trimpe later on) in it. Stan, who was a long-time staff employee of Martin Goodman's, had his own office. But this meant that Romita was right there on hand at the Marvel office to help Stan and help he did. Romita was more than an inker (Avengers) and then penciler (DD, ASM). He did a ton of art corrections, or should I say art changes, for Stan, who was always looking over all the completed art and when Lee wanted changes--for story clarity, for example --there was Romita, available to "correct" the art. And Romita continued to do this extra work even when he took over the penciling of ASM. Romita and Stan got along, Stan trusted him, Romita knew what Stan wanted. Romita was notoriously and self-admittedly, painstakingly "slow" when doing full pencils so Stan had him do layouts for others (this also freed Romita up to more of the production work on other artists completed work)...but as prof011 said, when Romita did layouts for Spidey "to save time" but he would often go back over the penciler's work and touch it up, or finish it, or ink it--so he was doing more work on Spidey, not less! But Romita's Spidey was the house look, and it was worth its weight in gold. As Marvel grew and Stan's corporate duties and responsibilities increased, Romita eventually stood in for Stan for ASM story conferences and was the one who liaised with ASM artists such as Heck, Gil Kane, and others. Spidey was Romita's book, even when he stopped doing full pencils for it. Romita was put on staff (as opposed to being freelance) after a while. Some books I like that detail John Romita's contributions at Marvel during this time (mid-late '60s, and also later) are TwoMorrow's John Romita and All That Jazz; The Romita Legacy by Tom Spurgeon; and The Art of John Romita. These provide a lot of background and first-hand reminiscences. Romita has more of an influence than some might know. In the Romita birthday thread, I posted the following--Romita's recalling his first meeting with Stan Lee:
David Anthony Kraft: "Do you remember the first time you met Stan?"
Romita: "Yeah. I went up to the Empire State Building and we discussed stories. He left a big impression on me--and he was very encouraging. I did about three or four stories for him which were just average beginner stories, after which I did one with a lot of elaborate technique. He went crazy, loved it. He said it was so realistic and strong.
I must have made a dozen enemies among the other freelance artists because he had asked them to work that way too, and it took twice as long. He asked them all to embellish their artwork with this elaborate technique--with all the tones, light and shade. It was murder."
--FOOM #18, June 1977
So, we all know that by the time of Marvel's Silver Age, Kirby became the house style other artists were told to emulate (in their varied ways), but it seems Lee wanted his artists to draw the Romita way during the Atlas/early Marvel years. Of course, Romita would not be the only realism-oriented artist at the company, as John Severin (Rawhide Kid), Russ Heath and Carl Burgos (Two-Gun Kid) were also pushing the monthly comic in that direction, but Lee seemed to have turned an artistic preference page once he saw Romita's work. That, coupled with just how much he was in on shaping Marvel art and creating stories shows that if 1960s / early 70s Marvel had a top five of consistently influential talents, Romita was on that list.
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