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Post by Calidore on Sept 16, 2024 18:23:53 GMT -5
As a Clavell reader, What do you think? And obviously I'd like to hear from anyone else who's read Clavell or who has thoughts on any of these things as well. I definitely can't say I'm a Clavell reader; I read Shogun a long time ago out of curiosity and found it fine, and I think I also read King Rat because it seemed like it might have Stalag 17 vibes, but I don't remember anything about it now.
I remember being kinda disappointed that the huge battle Shogun had been building up to was simply summarized in a paragraph at the end. Then reading Musashi much later, that begins in the aftermath of that same battle, with young Miyamoto Musashi waking up on the battlefield. I thought it was funny that that the two novels bookend this historically significant engagement, but neither actually relates it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 16, 2024 21:37:10 GMT -5
King Rat is about a POW camp, in Singapore, with a mixture of European prisoners. The POV is a British RAF officer, but "The King" is an American corporal, who is a scrounger and black market dealer and pretty much controls the camp. I haven't read it, but saw the film, with George Segal as King. King's fortunes change, after the camp is liberated, upon the Japanese surrender. The "rat" part refers to King selling rat meat to prisoners, as "mouse-deer."
I was tempted to read Shogun, but the page count and the parts of the mini-series that lagged kind of dissuaded me.
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Post by berkley on Sept 16, 2024 23:34:52 GMT -5
King Rat is about a POW camp, in Singapore, with a mixture of European prisoners. The POV is a British RAF officer, but "The King" is an American corporal, who is a scrounger and black market dealer and pretty much controls the camp. I haven't read it, but saw the film, with George Segal as King. King's fortunes change, after the camp is liberated, upon the Japanese surrender. The "rat" part refers to King selling rat meat to prisoners, as "mouse-deer."
Ah, that helps, actually. From skimming the back cover, I had been left with the idea that King Rat was the protagonist - which didn't encourage me to read the book.
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Post by berkley on Sept 16, 2024 23:35:22 GMT -5
Apologies if I've brought this up before: I remembering this same question occurring to me another time when Clavell's name came up but can't recall if I followed through (a thread search says no, but it might have been someplace other than the Books thread).
Anyway: many times when I hear about Clavell's books I feel like I'd like to read them some time. But when I look at them I find myself turned off by one specific element: the western European or American hero that many of them seem to feature. Just recently, for example, I was about to buy King Rat at a local used bookstore but when I picked it up and started reading the blurb on the back cover, it made such a point of the hero being of western origin that it bugged me. I understand that it's perfectly natural to have a western protagonist in a book of popular adventure fiction that's being marketed to a western audience, but that back cover made me fear that King Rat was going a step further: not having a western protagonist just in order to appeal to the western reader, but to send a message of western superiority, whether on an individual or cultural level or both at once. From some of the things I vaguely remember hearing about Clavell's books, I'm hoping this impression is mistaken - perhaps the result of some bad advertising copy from the publishers that misrepresents the tone of Clavell's novel. As a Clavell reader, What do you think? And obviously I'd like to hear from anyone else who's read Clavell or who has thoughts on any of these things as well. I haven't read King Rat but I believe it was loosely based on Clavell's own experiences in a Japanese POW camp so you can't really blame the guy for using a Western protagonist when it was basically autobiographical. Shogun and several of his other books featured Westerners as the hero but personally that's never bothered me that much. I'm sure there are Japanese books and movies that do the same thing having a Japanese hero come to the west and set everyone straight.
There are prominent Asian characters in each of Clavell's novels, particularly Shogun where almost all the other main characters are Japanese. If it's the story of a Westerner encountering a foreign culture for the first time, the protagonist, by definition, has to be a Westerner. Clavell plays fast and loose with some elements of Japanese history but overall, I found it a very enjoyable novel.
Like I said, I can accept that having a western protagonist is a natural thing to do when writing books directed towards a western audience. What I don't like to see is when they make that western protagonist a hero at the expense of the people who live in the part of the world he's visiting. I don't know if Clavell does that or not since I haven't yet tried any books, but something on the back cover of King Rat made me fear he might go a little too far in that direction for my taste. However, from codystarbuck's description, I now see that I was misinterpreting that back cover blurb, so I think I will give King Rat a try once of these days.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 17, 2024 6:00:07 GMT -5
The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and ClayMichael Chabon, 2000  Finally got around to reading this one, which has been sitting on my ‘to read’ pile (also known as the shelf of shame) for a bit too long. I felt particularly guilty about not getting to it sooner, given the subject matter. For those who may not be familiar: the titular characters, Josef ‘Joe’ Kavalier and Sammy Clay (born Samuel Klayman) are – at the start – two very young cousins in New York in 1939 who create what would end up becoming one of the more iconic characters of comics’ golden age, the Escapist. The novel goes on to detail the next roughly 15 years of their lives (i.e., up to 1954 and the infamous Senate hearings on juvenile delinquency and the supposed contributions of comics thereto). Their story is told against the back-drop of that era, in which the Holocaust (the first section deals with Joe’s escape from Nazi-occupied Prague) and World War II loom large, and touches on the hard-scrabble lives of comics writers and artists as they deal with deadlines, unscrupulous publishers and their own artistic frustrations. This is a very weighty and well-written book, but I honestly found big chunks of it a slog to read – I think many sections are a tad overwritten and wordy. Even so, I’d still recommend it, because the basic story and its main characters (which, besides Joe and Sammy, include the love of Joe’s life, Rosa Saks, who ends up playing a big part in both of their lives) are really interesting. And there are even occasional touches of humor, like my favorite line in the book: “Bacon is not actually pork. There are words in the Talmud to that effect.” I really enjoyed the book, but I agree that it slogs at times. A few things that made a lasting impressions were... - The real world comics creators who make a brief appearance (is this a Roman à clef?) Kavalier sharing a crate with the golem to escape Prague, although it is never named and he doesn't seem to realize what it is; - The origin story of Luna Moth, which perfectly captured the spirit of 1940s super-hero comics; - The Antarctic episode, which made no sense at all, but all in the right ways. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 17, 2024 8:01:31 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the book, but I agree that it slogs at times. A few things that made a lasting impressions were... - The real world comics creators who make a brief appearance (is this a Roman à clef?) (...) - The origin story of Luna Moth, which perfectly captured the spirit of 1940s super-hero comics; - The Antarctic episode, which made no sense at all, but all in the right ways. To be honest, initially I found the cameos by actual comics guys a bit off-putting, until I read in the acknowledgements that Chabon had in fact spoken to several of them while conducting research for the book, including Stan Lee and Gil Kane (who both had 'speaking parts'), so I saw it as sort of a nice hat-tip.
As for Joe's wartime experience in Antarctica, I thought it made sense (given some of his later actions), but this was one of the sections that I thought could have been seriously cut down - like, in fact, that entire first part of the book that covers Joe's life in Prague and his eventual flight from the city and then Europe. Not that I found anything wrong with any individual part of it, but it just went on too long (it's almost like an entirely separate novella). I think it could, or probably should, have been much shorter. The best parts to me are those that focus on Joe, Sammy and Rosa in New York, and their relationships (both mutual and with others), as well as the 1940s/early 1950s comic-book scene.
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Post by Calidore on Sept 17, 2024 11:00:20 GMT -5
King Rat is about a POW camp, in Singapore, with a mixture of European prisoners. The POV is a British RAF officer, but "The King" is an American corporal, who is a scrounger and black market dealer and pretty much controls the camp. I haven't read it, but saw the film, with George Segal as King. King's fortunes change, after the camp is liberated, upon the Japanese surrender. The "rat" part refers to King selling rat meat to prisoners, as "mouse-deer." I was tempted to read Shogun, but the page count and the parts of the mini-series that lagged kind of dissuaded me. It's big, but I don't remember being bored. I finished it at least. I'd say that if it's the kind of thing you like, you'll probably like it. |
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Post by Calidore on Sept 17, 2024 11:02:59 GMT -5
I haven't read King Rat but I believe it was loosely based on Clavell's own experiences in a Japanese POW camp so you can't really blame the guy for using a Western protagonist when it was basically autobiographical. Shogun and several of his other books featured Westerners as the hero but personally that's never bothered me that much. I'm sure there are Japanese books and movies that do the same thing having a Japanese hero come to the west and set everyone straight.
There are prominent Asian characters in each of Clavell's novels, particularly Shogun where almost all the other main characters are Japanese. If it's the story of a Westerner encountering a foreign culture for the first time, the protagonist, by definition, has to be a Westerner. Clavell plays fast and loose with some elements of Japanese history but overall, I found it a very enjoyable novel.
Like I said, I can accept that having a western protagonist is a natural thing to do when writing books directed towards a western audience. What I don't like to see is when they make that western protagonist a hero at the expense of the people who live in the part of the world he's visiting. I don't know if Clavell does that or not since I haven't yet tried any books, but something on the back cover of King Rat made me fear he might go a little too far in that direction for my taste. However, from codystarbuck's description, I now see that I was misinterpreting that back cover blurb, so I think I will give King Rat a try once of these days.
It's really a fish out of water story, and I believe Clavell based his protagonist on a real historical person. Clavell is also respectful and did lots of research; Ian Fleming's You Only Live Twice this isn't.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 17, 2024 11:06:11 GMT -5
I never got around to reading Shogun, though I loved the mini-series back in 1980. It wasn't that the size was daunting, as I read a number of Michener opus' during that time period. I just never got around to it. I wouldn't mind reading it, I just can't justify dedicating the time to a book that big at this point in my life. Maybe after retirement.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 17, 2024 11:32:03 GMT -5
I have since read books as big as Shogun, but never really got the itch to read it or Clavell's other stuff. I took a class in Japanese history, in college, and that probably fed more of my interest in that whole period, than the mini-series did, good as it was.
In regards to Chabon, I highly recommend his Gentlemen of the Road. For one, it is shorter; but, it's also more of an adventure tale and a sort of pastiche of Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories. It features two Jewish swordsmen: Amram, a huge Abyssinian, and Zelikman, a Frankish physician, with a thin blade he calls Scalpel. They get embroiled in a plot to restore a Khazar prince to the throne. The characters very much share the personalities of Leiber's rogues, but with an emphasis on Jewish history and folklore, particularly the legends of the Khazars. He emersed himself in romantic adventure fiction and swashbuckling adventure, before writing it, citing Dumas, Leiber, George MacDonald Fraser and Michael Moorcock. Those were all favorites of mine and this quickly became one, too, about 3 pages into the first story.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 17, 2024 17:13:56 GMT -5
I have since read books as big as Shogun, but never really got the itch to read it or Clavell's other stuff. I took a class in Japanese history, in college, and that probably fed more of my interest in that whole period, than the mini-series did, good as it was. In regards to Chabon, I highly recommend his Gentlemen of the Road. For one, it is shorter; but, it's also more of an adventure tale and a sort of pastiche of Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories. It features two Jewish swordsmen: Amram, a huge Abyssinian, and Zelikman, a Frankish physician, with a thin blade he calls Scalpel. They get embroiled in a plot to restore a Khazar prince to the throne. The characters very much share the personalities of Leiber's rogues, but with an emphasis on Jewish history and folklore, particularly the legends of the Khazars. He emersed himself in romantic adventure fiction and swashbuckling adventure, before writing it, citing Dumas, Leiber, George MacDonald Fraser and Michael Moorcock. Those were all favorites of mine and this quickly became one, too, about 3 pages into the first story. Never heard of it, but I'll definitely look it up! |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 17, 2024 19:03:30 GMT -5
I have since read books as big as Shogun, but never really got the itch to read it or Clavell's other stuff. I took a class in Japanese history, in college, and that probably fed more of my interest in that whole period, than the mini-series did, good as it was. In regards to Chabon, I highly recommend his Gentlemen of the Road. For one, it is shorter; but, it's also more of an adventure tale and a sort of pastiche of Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories. It features two Jewish swordsmen: Amram, a huge Abyssinian, and Zelikman, a Frankish physician, with a thin blade he calls Scalpel. They get embroiled in a plot to restore a Khazar prince to the throne. The characters very much share the personalities of Leiber's rogues, but with an emphasis on Jewish history and folklore, particularly the legends of the Khazars. He emersed himself in romantic adventure fiction and swashbuckling adventure, before writing it, citing Dumas, Leiber, George MacDonald Fraser and Michael Moorcock. Those were all favorites of mine and this quickly became one, too, about 3 pages into the first story. Never heard of it, but I'll definitely look it up! Yeah, it kind of slipped under the radar. Too genre for the Pulitzer crowd, I guess. Same with The Final Solution, his Sherlock Holmes pastiche, which followed Kavalier and Clay and preceded Gentlemen of the Road. There is also The Yiddish Policeman's Union, a hardboiled mystery, set in an alternate Alaska, which was set up as a Jewish homeland, after the collapse of Israel, in 1948. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 17, 2024 19:40:46 GMT -5
I liked that one; I'm usually a big fan of alternate reality stories that sound plausible. Robert Harris's Fatherland was a bit like that.
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 17, 2024 19:46:10 GMT -5
King Rat is about a POW camp, in Singapore, with a mixture of European prisoners. The POV is a British RAF officer, but "The King" is an American corporal, who is a scrounger and black market dealer and pretty much controls the camp. I haven't read it, but saw the film, with George Segal as King. King's fortunes change, after the camp is liberated, upon the Japanese surrender. The "rat" part refers to King selling rat meat to prisoners, as "mouse-deer." I was tempted to read Shogun, but the page count and the parts of the mini-series that lagged kind of dissuaded me. Are you talking about the recent mini-series or the original with Richard Chamberlin? I thought the original was much better and was much truer to the novel. The book is incredibly long and has some slow parts, particularly at the beginning. But if you enjoy samurai-related stories, particularly a slightly romanticized version of the samurai, I'd say it's definitely worth a read. |
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Post by Yasotay on Sept 17, 2024 19:55:23 GMT -5
I haven't read King Rat but I believe it was loosely based on Clavell's own experiences in a Japanese POW camp so you can't really blame the guy for using a Western protagonist when it was basically autobiographical. Shogun and several of his other books featured Westerners as the hero but personally that's never bothered me that much. I'm sure there are Japanese books and movies that do the same thing having a Japanese hero come to the west and set everyone straight.
There are prominent Asian characters in each of Clavell's novels, particularly Shogun where almost all the other main characters are Japanese. If it's the story of a Westerner encountering a foreign culture for the first time, the protagonist, by definition, has to be a Westerner. Clavell plays fast and loose with some elements of Japanese history but overall, I found it a very enjoyable novel.
Like I said, I can accept that having a western protagonist is a natural thing to do when writing books directed towards a western audience. What I don't like to see is when they make that western protagonist a hero at the expense of the people who live in the part of the world he's visiting. I don't know if Clavell does that or not since I haven't yet tried any books, but something on the back cover of King Rat made me fear he might go a little too far in that direction for my taste. However, from codystarbuck's description, I now see that I was misinterpreting that back cover blurb, so I think I will give King Rat a try once of these days.
Given King Rat is about Westerners in a Japanese POW camp, I can see building up the hero at the expense of the Japanese. As for Shogun, I don't know if you'd say that or not. The main character is certainly the hero and saves some of the Japanese on a few occasions. But they also teach him a thing or two about Japanese culture. Personally, if you take it for fiction rather than history, I found it fairly balanced and definitely enjoyable. |
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