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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 22, 2021 15:27:48 GMT -5
(...) Which is not to say that the book was without redeeming value. Even not so good Lansdale is generally pretty good. And it was definitely nice to see that, at least Hap, was coming to the conclusion that maybe they're "too old for this shit." Which does raise and issue, if you're of a mind to think about it. The early novels, Savage Season, in particular, were very rooted in their time. Leonard was a Vietnam vet. Hap had done time for failing to report to the draft. So, unless the new novels are set somewhat in the past or there's some kind of time compression the boys are at least in their late 60s. So...they're too old for this shit. Mostly I just let it slide...but it pokes at a guy's subconscious. (...) Yeah, he can't very well claim there's a sliding time-scale like in the Marvel U. That's one thing I like about Max Allan Collins' approach to Quarry when he started writing novels featuring the character in the mid-'00s after an almost 20 year break: he just sets them in various points in the Quarry's past in the 1970s or 1980s.
That would make a lot more sense. And you can kind of intellectually think that Lansdale is doing that, but then there's the fact that everyone is carrying a cell phone, which still really kind of puts you into the late 2000s to early 2010s. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 23, 2021 2:11:05 GMT -5
I've always admired Rex Stout's approach to this problem in his Nero Wolfe books, which lasted from the 1930s to the 1970s: he kept the main recurring characters at the same age throughout, roughly speaking: I think Wolfe was in his 50s and Goodwin probably mid-30s or perhaps a little younger in some of the earlier books. I think most of the regular supportng cast - Cramer, Lily Rowan, Saul Panzer, etc - would be included in this unspoken time capsule as well. But the surrounding environment evolved in more or less real time, including not only technology, culture, politics, social issues, etc, but also, in at least one instance, a character who came back as a middle-aged or elderly person after having appeared as a young man in one of the early books.
I really like that Stout didn't feel any need to give an in-story explanation of this - for example, by having the unaging characters drink an elixir of immortality or something. Anything along those lines would have been totally out of place in what in every other respect was a down to earth, though very cleverly written, detective series set in our everyday contemporary world.
I think this was a very bold and not at all obvious thing to do, and also quite insightful, in that it tacitly acknowledges that Wolfe and Goodwin were sort of iconic, larger than life figures - just like, say, James Bond or Tarzan. And I thnk that other long, successful series that perhaps in some cases may have carried on for far more years than the creator had originally thought likely might benefit from the same approach.
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 23, 2021 7:05:35 GMT -5
I've always admired Rex Stout's approach to this problem in his Nero Wolfe books, which lasted from the 1930s to the 1970s: he kept the main recurring characters at the same age throughout, roughly speaking: I think Wolfe was in his 50s and Goodwin probably mid-30s or perhaps a little younger in some of the earlier books. I think most of the regular supportng cast - Cramer, Lily Rowan, Saul Panzer, etc - would be included in this unspoken time capsule as well. But the surrounding environment evolved in more or less real time, including not only technology, culture, politics, social issues, etc, but also, in at least one instance, a character who came back as a middle-aged or elderly person after having appeared as a young man in one of the early books. I really like that Stout didn't feel any need to give an in-story explanation of this - for example, by having the unaging characters drink an elixir of immortality or something. Anything along those lines would have been totally out of place in what in every other respect was a down to earth, though very cleverly written, detective series set in our everyday contemporary world. I think this was a very bold and not at all obvious thing to do, and also quite insightful, in that it tacitly acknowledges that Wolfe and Goodwin were sort of iconic, larger than life figures - just like, say, James Bond or Tarzan. And I thnk that other long, successful series that perhaps in some cases may have carried on for far more years than the creator had originally thought likely might benefit from the same approach. I didn’t realize that Stout did this in the Nero Wolfe stories. It’s similar to what Universal did with Sherlock Holmes during World War Two and, as you point out, what has been common practice with Tarzan and now with the Bond movies. IIRC, it happened to Zorro in one of his serials, too. It wouldn’t work as easily with Conan, though. 😏 |
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Post by Calamas on Sept 23, 2021 11:23:18 GMT -5
The aging process is something every author has to deal with, particularly once he realizes that he’s going to be here for a while. Someone here is currently working their way through the 87th Precinct series (Sincere apologies for not identifying by name and addressing directly but my life the last couple of years has pretty much relegated me to Lurker status, and my attention span has followed suit.) This series starts very much in real time but at some point Hunter realized that he had to start retarding the aging process. I’m not spoiling anything by saying that in a series that spanned almost fifty years you see the birth of Carella’s kids but they will not emerge out the other side of their teens.
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Post by berkley on Sept 23, 2021 14:02:05 GMT -5
I've always admired Rex Stout's approach to this problem in his Nero Wolfe books, which lasted from the 1930s to the 1970s: he kept the main recurring characters at the same age throughout, roughly speaking: I think Wolfe was in his 50s and Goodwin probably mid-30s or perhaps a little younger in some of the earlier books. I think most of the regular supportng cast - Cramer, Lily Rowan, Saul Panzer, etc - would be included in this unspoken time capsule as well. But the surrounding environment evolved in more or less real time, including not only technology, culture, politics, social issues, etc, but also, in at least one instance, a character who came back as a middle-aged or elderly person after having appeared as a young man in one of the early books. I really like that Stout didn't feel any need to give an in-story explanation of this - for example, by having the unaging characters drink an elixir of immortality or something. Anything along those lines would have been totally out of place in what in every other respect was a down to earth, though very cleverly written, detective series set in our everyday contemporary world. I think this was a very bold and not at all obvious thing to do, and also quite insightful, in that it tacitly acknowledges that Wolfe and Goodwin were sort of iconic, larger than life figures - just like, say, James Bond or Tarzan. And I thnk that other long, successful series that perhaps in some cases may have carried on for far more years than the creator had originally thought likely might benefit from the same approach. I didn’t realize that Stout did this in the Nero Wolfe stories. It’s similar to what Universal did with Sherlock Holmes during World War Two and, as you point out, what has been common practice with Tarzan and now with the Bond movies. IIRC, it happened to Zorro in one of his serials, too. It wouldn’t work as easily with Conan, though. 😏 No, it's part of Conan's story that he ages and becomes a king later in life, that he was a thief when younger, etc, and you dn't want to lose that arc.
But also, REH didn't write him over many decades; and even if he had done, as part of the fantasy genre there was no need to age him in real time as the the series progressed, or to take an alternate approach and shift his time-line forward - "Shoot, I've been writing these Conan stories for 50 years, I'd better start saying his Cimmerian tribe was wiped out by the Vanaheim in their border raids, not by the Aesir, whose attacks took place much earlier, as everybody knows!"
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 23, 2021 14:09:20 GMT -5
I didn’t realize that Stout did this in the Nero Wolfe stories. It’s similar to what Universal did with Sherlock Holmes during World War Two and, as you point out, what has been common practice with Tarzan and now with the Bond movies. IIRC, it happened to Zorro in one of his serials, too. It wouldn’t work as easily with Conan, though. 😏 No, it's part of Conan's story that he ages and becomes a king later in life, that he was a thief when younger, etc, and you dn't want to lose that arc.
But also, REH didn't write him over many decades; and even if he had done, as part of the fantasy genre there was no need to age him in real time as the the series progressed, or to take an alternate approach and shift his time-line forward - "Shoot, I've been writing these Conan stories for 50 years, I'd better start saying his Cimmerian tribe was wiped out by the Vanaheim in their border raids, not by the Aesir, whose attacks took place much earlier, as everybody knows!"
Well, I was thinking more about Conan with a cellphone or fighting alongside the Howlers.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 15:58:30 GMT -5
I mentioned in the comics purchased thread, I picked up a bunch of Hard Case Crime volumes yesterday at HPB, and a few other miscellaneous books... three Donald Westlake volumes:  Three Quarry books by Max Allan Collins  and a trio of other miscellany, my first 87th Precinct pick up and a pair of later Destroyer volumes  But two questions-are the 87th Precinct novels episodic enough you can read them in any order if you don't have the entire series (like say Hardy Boys mysteries or even Doc Savage novels), or do they have a tight enough interior continuity that reading them in order is a must? I'm intrigued by them, but I don't want to get a pile of them before actually sampling some, and I am wondering if I need ot track down the first book, or can giv ethe one I got a read to sample, and not be lost. And secondly, does anyone have a good link for a reading order on the Quarry books by Collins? -M |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Sept 23, 2021 17:22:56 GMT -5
(...) And secondly, does anyone have a good link for a reading order on the Quarry books by Collins? (...) Sure, just go to the Wikipedia entry for Max Allan Collins and scroll down a bit to the "Selected bibliography" section - the Quarry books are listed first, and in the order of publication, which is the probably the correct reading order. So basically, in the case of the books you purchased, the reading order based on publication date would be Last Quarry, First Quarry and then Quarry in the Middle. However, in terms of the chronology of the main character's life, it would be First, Middle and Last, which seems more logical. Now, I'm a bit pedantic, so I did indeed read them in order of publication, but honestly you can pick any one of them up in any order - there's no real tight continuity, because after the first five, Collins sort of skipped around chronologically. However, if you can get a hold of the first two (Quarry and Quarry's List), I would suggest reading those before any of the others.
By the way, you're going to take those godawful price tags off of those covers, aren't you? My hand involuntarily reached for the screen to tear them off...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 21:27:46 GMT -5
(...) And secondly, does anyone have a good link for a reading order on the Quarry books by Collins? (...) Sure, just go to the Wikipedia entry for Max Allan Collins and scroll down a bit to the "Selected bibliography" section - the Quarry books are listed first, and in the order of publication, which is the probably the correct reading order. So basically, in the case of the books you purchased, the reading order based on publication date would be Last Quarry, First Quarry and then Quarry in the Middle. However, in terms of the chronology of the main character's life, it would be First, Middle and Last, which seems more logical. Now, I'm a bit pedantic, so I did indeed read them in order of publication, but honestly you can pick any one of them up in any order - there's no real tight continuity, because after the first five, Collins sort of skipped around chronologically. However, if you can get a hold of the first two (Quarry and Quarry's List), I would suggest reading those before any of the others. By the way, you're going to take those godawful price tags off of those covers, aren't you? My hand involuntarily reached for the screen to tear them off...
They came off as soon as I finished taking the pics. I debated peeling them before I took the pic, but sometimes I like to keep track of what I paid for things so the pics saved the prices for posterity. -M |
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Post by Calamas on Sept 24, 2021 14:45:47 GMT -5
I mentioned in the comics purchased thread, I picked up a bunch of Hard Case Crime volumes yesterday at HPB, and a few other miscellaneous books... three Donald Westlake volumes: Three Quarry books by Max Allan Collins and a trio of other miscellany, my first 87th Precinct pick up and a pair of later Destroyer volumes But two questions-are the 87th Precinct novels episodic enough you can read them in any order if you don't have the entire series (like say Hardy Boys mysteries or even Doc Savage novels), or do they have a tight enough interior continuity that reading them in order is a must? I'm intrigued by them, but I don't want to get a pile of them before actually sampling some, and I am wondering if I need ot track down the first book, or can giv ethe one I got a read to sample, and not be lost. And secondly, does anyone have a good link for a reading order on the Quarry books by Collins? -M I read the early 87th Precinct novels as I found them (Pre-Internet days) and I had no trouble figuring things out. Lady, Lady, I Did It, # 14 in the series, is important to a regular character. Not a great novel but containing one of the most devastating scenes I ever read. It’s not until later in the series, maybe the mid-40s, that carryover plotlines emerge. 361--which I still hope to read--with its cold, emotionless lead character, helped turn Westlake into a comic novelist. From his introduction to a collection called Levine: 
The Hunter, of course, refers to the first Parker novel he wrote as Richard Stark. |
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Post by berkley on Sept 24, 2021 21:05:03 GMT -5
I mentioned in the comics purchased thread, I picked up a bunch of Hard Case Crime volumes yesterday at HPB, and a few other miscellaneous books... and a trio of other miscellany, my first 87th Precinct pick up and a pair of later Destroyer volumes -M
Have you read any of those later Destroyers? I've been picking up various entries in the series over the last few years whenever I see one cheap. I read two or three of the earlier ones when I was a kid in the 70s so I have an idea what they were like at that time, but I'm wondering if the quality is maintained pretty well all the way through the series or does it tail off after a certain point?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2021 5:08:02 GMT -5
I mentioned in the comics purchased thread, I picked up a bunch of Hard Case Crime volumes yesterday at HPB, and a few other miscellaneous books... and a trio of other miscellany, my first 87th Precinct pick up and a pair of later Destroyer volumes -M Have you read any of those later Destroyers? I've been picking up various entries in the series over the last few years whenever I see one cheap. I read two or three of the earlier ones when I was a kid in the 70s so I have an idea what they were like at that time, but I'm wondering if the quality is maintained pretty well all the way through the series or does it tail off after a certain point?
Not yet. I've focused mostly on the first 25 or so, but I found those two on the cheap so decided to give them a go. -M |
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Post by berkley on Sept 25, 2021 18:20:57 GMT -5
Have you read any of those later Destroyers? I've been picking up various entries in the series over the last few years whenever I see one cheap. I read two or three of the earlier ones when I was a kid in the 70s so I have an idea what they were like at that time, but I'm wondering if the quality is maintained pretty well all the way through the series or does it tail off after a certain point?
Not yet. I've focused mostly on the first 25 or so, but I found those two on the cheap so decided to give them a go. -M
That's more or less what I've been doing too, though my arbitrary cut-off was a little farther along, around #40 or the end of the 1970s. I have picked up a few later ones, when I've see them cheap, but haven't gone out of my way to look for them - except for #100, which is supposed to be an important entry in the series.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 25, 2021 21:45:46 GMT -5
I've been reading the 87th precinct books in order (it's me reading them, Calamas, now and then), but I recently decided to read the ones I have, and I think you'll be fine. Wikipedia has a character list if you want to know who's who and it's not clear... the book that Calamas mentioned will get spoiled for you if you look at that list, but otherwise you'll be fine.
ore
The ones I read so far are pretty much happening in real time(the first 13 came out in 5 years), but I assumed it changes and he either doesn't progress further tech wise or just starts ignoring that.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 25, 2021 21:47:01 GMT -5
Black Sun
Rebecca Roanhorse
I broke the rule to read this for book club... the all important one.. the Martin/Rothfuss Rule. No more reading modern fantasy and sci fi until the series is complete (or at least a storyline is complete).
I have no idea if the next book for this one will come out on time or not, of course, but this book is why I've made that rule for myself. This is a great beginning to an epic fantasy, but it is just a bare beginning... don't let the page count fool you... there's a good 50 blank chapter bumper pages in there.. not to mention all the formatting spaces.. there's probably only 300 pages of story, and that shows.
There is some great character development, but the world building is terrible... we're given a vague outline that there are 4 clans that are united? ruled? conquered? by a priesthood... and to make that happen the priests killed a bunch of one clan. But why? Who are the good guys? I have no idea after reading the entire first book.
Did I mention it's not clear if two of the 3 point of view characters are alive or dead? That's not an ending, that's a gimmicky, annoying cliffhanger to try to get people excited for the next one.
While I would like to see what happens and if the story goes anywhere, I won't be reading it until the series is complete.
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