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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2014 6:09:25 GMT -5
"After the Galaxy Dies: A Look Beyond Metamorphosis Odyssey with Author/Artist James P. Starlin"originally published in: Epic Illustrated #9 (December 1981) grade: n/a Just quoting key excerpts and commenting on them. This was a pretty informative interview: What I was trying to do with the Metamorphosis Odyssey was sort of bring out some of the stuff that was in my psyche from the Vietnam war...So I had this stuff in my head that I wanted to work out on that, but I knew a Vietnam story was not the way to do it. I started going through and thinking about what the whole thing was basically about. For most Americans, it seemed to me, it was about responsibility of one sort or another and how you would react to it. The responsibility of what you owe your country and the responsibility of what you owe yourself. Taking responsibility for your actions. Things like that. Basically, what I did was try to take a cross-section of Americans and make characters out of the way different people reacted to the situation we had at the time. Like Za. He follows Aknaton blindly. He's like a true patriot. He goes along with it. Whis'par questions everything about the situation and is very critical about her responsibility. Juliet is sort of whisked along with it all, just as Vanth is. Vanth, in his own way, is like the perfect warrior, but he's completely lost in what's going on, sort of bumbling along until suddenly he realizes there's no other alternative, he has to go along with it. Aknaton is the mad planner who gets everything going. He has a definite end involved, but his reasoning is convoluted and different than ours. He seems mad, but in his own little universe, he fits in just right. Interesting, and interesting, as well, that Starlin doesn't even seem to have a grasp on Juliet behind the scenes in this interview. His description of her makes her a totally redundant presence in the series. One of the most famous quotes to come out of the Vietnam war was, "In order to save the village we had to destroy it." That almost seems to be Aknaton's thing. In order to save the galaxy, he has to destroy it. Yes, it's that same type of mentality. Vanth has the other outlook; while he has failed here, he can go on. In fact, Metamorphosis Odyssey is only part one of a three part origin of Vanth...It goes from Metamorphosis Odyssey to The Price to Dreadstar. He had it all worked out already! Well, actually, I've got about a thousand pages of material sort of plotted in my head that continues beyond Dreadstar. Will we ever in the course of all this go back to Za, Juliet, and Whis'par from where they were left at the end of Metamorphosis Odyssey and see what they've made of their godhood or anything like that? At the end of the series, when I finally decide to kill Vanth Dreadstar off, they'll eventually be brought back in. I've got the end all plotted out; now I just have to get the middle in there somewhere. First off, spoiler tags please, Jim. Second, this approach to plotting feels exactly like what Starlin did with Metamorphosis Odyssey. The end was clear and clearly in sight all along, but Starlin seemed to get lost in the middle quite a bit. Secondly, (and don't tell me!) I wonder whether he stuck with this ending. I now know that Peter David took over at some point, so did he stick to the plan, did he decide to end things differently, or did he somehow pick up the series AFTER Vanth's death? Starlin goes on to affirm exactly what mrp had already told us in terms of his distrust in organized religion, stemming all the way back to his elementary school days in a religious school. He then explain that most of his characters were visually based on people he knew, and (to support what was surmised by other posters earlier on):
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2014 6:15:52 GMT -5
The Metamorphosis Odyssey: Book Two -- "The Price" Originally published as a stand alone graphic novel (October 1981)* (*Note: While comic books and comic magazines often featured cover dates months ahead of actual time, this practice is not the same for published books. Thus the indica for this graphic novel provides the publication date of "October 1981," even while the final chapter of the previous storyline concluded in the "December 1981" issue of Epic Illustrated) grade: A While this story begins as a totally different animal than the Metamorphosis Odyssey, starring a tax auditor on a theocratic world of religious sorcerers participating in a larger galactic battle between their "Instrumentality" and another galactic empire known as "The Monarchy," the story quickly transitions into that of Syzygy Darklock, a bishop sorcerer who closely resembles Doctor Strange in appearance and Aknaton/Vanth in terms of destiny. He's ultimately forced to make a massive ethical sacrifice in order to save the galaxy, and this comes after peering into the future and glimpsing his own destiny, much as Aknaton did. Heck, he's even led to all this by a master manipulator who reveals his final plan with the full knowledge that Syzygy will thus destroy him in a moment of rage, nearly exactly as Vanth did to Aknaton. The differences, though, are two fold. For one, Starlin gives a lot more attention to characterization this time. Perhaps it's the format that has allowed him to spend more time on this. Syzygy and his lover are both relatively well developed, and while we learn considerably less about Taurus Killgaren, he comes off as incredibly intriguing (and why is he dressed like Vanth anyway? Does that ever get explained??). For another, the art in this volume is far less ambitious. It's solid throughout, but the panel arrangements are smaller and the art tends to favor talking heads and less striking action. Additionally, there is no color this time around. Is this because of the publisher? And why was this story published through Eclipse anyway? The first and third volumes were published by Marvel and its subsidiary publication, Epic. One other point that seems important to revisit is Starlin's layout of the multiple dimensions of reality. When he described it all at the conclusion of the Metamorphosis Odyssey, I never expected that he'd revisit it so explicitly here, but it appears to be an important foundation for the universe he is building, so I'll be including it in the "Important Details" section. Finally, the major religious questions about "God" that Starlin gave such central attention to in the Metamorphosis Odyssey seem incidentally and anti-climactically solved in this storyline: The Gods are just super powerful beings chilling out on Levels 13 and 14. What a letdown. All in all a very effective story, but it certainly deviates from The Metamorphosis Odyssey in several key ways -- some for better, some for worse. Important Details: - First appearance and origin of Syzygy the Dark (formerly Syzygy Darklock) - First mentions of The Instrumentality and The Monarchy, as well as the history of their 200 year war (still ongoing) - First appearance of Lord Papel, temporal head of The Instrumentality, as well as Cardinal Spydar. - Syzygy becomes Vanth's mentor. - First mention (in the comics) of Vanth now being called Dreadstar. - Syzygy is destined to be destroyed by a "God" - Interesting that Killgaren was unsure whether it was Syzygy or his brother destined to play the great role in bringing about a better future. Will this be revisited? Will it cause Syzygy to doubt himself? Or did his glimpsing the future already remove the potential for such doubt? - First appearance of the Light Cutter II, a ship that Syzygy presumably acquires for Vanth ahead of meeting him. - The fifteen levels of reality (as articulated both in Metamorphosis Odyssey, Chapter XIII and in this volume): Level 1: Existence as we know it. Level 2: atomic, electrical, magnetic, photon, and other forces that we are able to tap Levels 3-9: Mystical planes. Wizards, priests, and other "first levelers" can make use of the forces existing here. Level 8: Apparently, demons reside here as well as on Level 10 (and possibly Level 9 too?), as Slytis (from The Price) is from Level 8, and he was more powerful than Bialgesuard. Starlin told us that demons resided on Level 10 in Chapter XIII of The Metamorphosis Odyssey. Levels 10-12: Demons, spirits, elementals, angels, and dread veil sorcerers. Few first-levelers ever get to this level. Level 10: Contains a reality known as "Nirvana's Gate," only accessible to gods and demons. It contains the Eye of the Gods, an entrance to the 11th level. Bialgesuard takes Syzygy to this level in The Price. Level 11: A level of pure reserve energy stored by "The Gods." This energy has been poisoned so that it is lethal to demons, but Syzygy, with Bialgesuard's help, is able to tap this power in The Price. Levels 13 and 14: "Provinces of The Gods" Level 15: "sole domain of a being of omnipotent force and many names. His plane of power is without end. His is the reality of the infinite." This is the level the Infinity Horn tapped in order to destroy the Milky Way. Minor Details: - Why would Syzygy's brother not believe in spirits and demons when he knows his brother deals with them in his line of work? - I love the occasional appearance of non-human looking characters in background shots (and who knows if Lord Papel is from one of these races or has just been transformed by his cosmic experiences, much as Syzygy ultimately is). One background character on page 2 looks Orsirian, which can't be possible. Perhaps a close cousin of that race? - Page 12: how are those visuals NOT lifted directly from Doctor Strange??? Still, the idea of making a major religion out of such occultism is an intriguing premise. What if such power only came as a result of participating in a large bureaucracy? - I find it interesting that Sister Marian is depicted as somewhat homely and overweight. An interesting and unconventional choice for a love interest. - I LOVE how Starlin draws Taurus Killgaren. At first, he could be confused for Vanth with his attire, but soon there's no question that he's a different and, somehow, more sympathetic looking character on his own self-inflicted deathbed. - Why is Aknaton in Syzygy's glimpse of the future (or is that another Orsirinian?) - There are several odd leaps in time in this story, perhaps due to space constraints. plot synopsis in one sentence: Syzygy Darklock is a bishop for The Instrumentality, a galactic theocratic empire governed by religious sorcerers, he takes a sabbatical from service to solve the mysterious supernatural murder of his brother, the head of The Instrumentality (Lord Papel) allows him to go, hoping he will be killed since he is a potential rival to the head of the government down the road, Szygy contacts the demon who slew his brother and finds that the demon is willing to help him obtain the power necessary to kill his master (Taurus Killgaren) because he mistreated the demon, Syzygy gains the power and is horribly disfigured by it, confronts Killgaren, learns Killgaren set all of this in motion so that Syzygy would be powerful enough to take the next step towards attaining enough power to help bring a better future into being, he glimpses the future and the fact that he will need to mentor Vanth Dreadstar, he learns that he must sacrifice the love of his life (Sister Marian) in order to attain this power, he kills Killgaren in rage (as Killgaren had planned), sacrifices Sister Marian, gets the needed power, meets Vanth, and prays that he will meet Sister Marian in heaven eventually and that she will forgive him.
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2014 6:24:57 GMT -5
The Metamorphosis Odyssey: Book Three -- "Dreadstar"originally published in: Marvel Graphic Novel #3 (1982) grade: A+ It's beginning to dawn on me just how carefully this work must have been watched by its loyal fanbase. Seemingly almost no effort is made to direct readers as to where to go next. The Price, published by a lesser known company, easily could have been overlooked by any but the most loyal of fans, and now, even this Marvel Graphic Novel doesn't conclude with any attempt to promote the upcoming Dreadstar ongoing series. It's mentioned in the preface by Englehart, but nowhere else. As for the story itself, I have to say that this was my favorite installment yet. Metamorphosis Odyssey was more cosmic and tragic, and The Price had a darkness and complexity to it that was all its own, but "Dreadstar" simply makes for an amazing beginning to a story. The conflict and backstory are darn intriguing, and I truly like the character Vanth is beginning to grow into. When we first met Vanth in Epic Illustrated #3, Starlin served up an origin story that felt thoroughly enmeshed in established European hero mythology. The hero Vanth was beginning to grow into on his homeworld, though, was put on the back burner while he got caught up in Aknaton's plans for galaxy annihilation (interestingly, a cause that neither he nor Starlin ever look back upon favorable or even as a necessary evil anymore. It is never condoned, even when it was portrayed as the best of all evils at the time). Now, decades later (from Vanth's perspective), we return to hero mythology in order to continue his progress. The former warrior hanging up his sword and attempting to live a peaceful life as a farmer, ultimately learning that he cannot escape his destiny, certainly isn't a new story, harkening back as far as Beowulf, but Starlin channels it beautifully here. Even if the attack on Caldor felt a bit dramatically convenient for the plotline, it set Vanth on a new course that I found intriguing, fighting a cliche battle between vengeance and heroism, but ending up with a compromise the likes of which I haven't seen before and which aligns so well with the morally complex universe Starlin has crafted. Can there be a right and a wrong in a galaxy as thoroughly corrupted as this one? Does it matter how righteous your actions are or are not when you are responsible for the death of countless googleplexes of peoples, and when you are the universe's tool for bringing down a new kind of injustice as well? It certainly feels good to root for Vanth wih this new direction he has taken, but Starlin has reversed his perspective before and denounced actions we were once led to support. Will he do so again? I suppose the question that remains is how key a character Szyzgy will be in this series? I'm still not convinced The Price was an appropriate chapter in this series, as good as it was. It felt too tangential and not at all critical to understanding what is transpiring and on the horizon. Perhaps this will change when the regular series begins. And, along those lines, Starlin appears obsessed with the relationship between questionable mentor and pliable mentee. Aknaton and Vanth, Szyzgy and Vanth, Vanth and the new King -- it all feels intentionally interconnected. In regards to Vanth and Syzygy's plan, I can't decide whether I think it's awesome in its simplicity (hey politicians and corporations, just take the longview approach) or insulting and too easy. I'll be curious to see how it plays out in the ongoing. Regardless, the idea of two superpowers locked in perpetual war on purpose because it suits the ambitions of powerful corporations that control the leaders is brilliant, original, and (like any good science fiction) not all that far from reality. And this was before the public became interested in Haliburton! Important Details: - First appearance of Oedi (presumably killed in this story, but alive in the next story) - Syzygy explains that, as a youth, Vanth survived being alone in the barren cold on Byfrexia by finding the sword. That is what kept him alive out there. We were previously told (in Epic Illustrated #3) that he had taken "refuge at a holy place known as the Ice Demon's Lantern," and was occasionally seen after that, roaming the hills naked. - In addition to the other powers the sword grants to Vanth, we now learn that it gives him the ability to instantly master new languages, as well as a healing factor that feels disturbingly similar to Wolverine's, healing him quickly and also preventing him from aging. Once again, first with characterization and now with the healing factor, I question who is stealing from who. - After the events of the Metamorphosis Odyssey, Vanth spends approximately 30 years living the life of a farmer on Caldor, a quiet farming colony, along with his partner, Delilah. - He is approached by Syzygy and begins to form a relationship with him, learning knowledge about the past and present from him, as well as advanced sciences and some basic sorcery. - The Monarchy sends a regiment of fighters to wipe out Caldor, incorrectly perceiving it to be a threat based upon 80 year old reports. Everyone is killed except Vanth. - Vanth then enlists in the Monarchy's military and builds up his career for two years in order to gain trust and ultimately be admitted to the central complex of the Monarchy, where he immediately murders the king in cold vengeance and then enacts a plan he devised with Syzygy to end the war and make the galaxy a better place, partially by manipulating the new king. - Upon joining the Royal military, Vanth begins referring to himself primarily as Dreadstar. Minor Details: - Starlin must really like drawing cat people. First Bialgesuard in The Price and now "The People" of Caldor. - Wasn't Caldor a chain of box stores? Yup. Just checked on Wikipedia. And they were firmly established by 1982. - We're back to using color again (and it looks great). Once more, why was The Price handled so differently than the first and third books, being published by Eclipse and in black and white? - Syzygy's hut looks like it was lifted directly from Star Wars. I half expect Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru to be waiting inside. - When Vanth lifts his sword for the first time in flashback, it looks EXACTLY like He-Man lifting his sword in Masters of the Universe. Both works were first released in 1982. Once again, who is copying who? - Heck, Syzygy has a passing resemblance to Skeletor. Just sayin'... - When Vanth finds the crucified remains of his 50+ year old mate, her body is in far too good shape. I don't know how many fifty year old women Starlin had seen topless at the time (and I'm not claiming I have!) but there's such a thing as sagging. - I love the minor detail thrown in that, when Vanth directs the Royal Navy, they push back the enemy with almost no casualties expect for the First Nova Squadron (the one that wiped out Caldor) which is completely obliterated. He's a brilliant and cruel son of a bitch. - After a soldier gives Vanth an update on his most recent battle, the soldier asks "Will that be all, sir," and Vanth replies "No...not...quite" and the scene then changes. What was that about? All in all a flawless execution. I don't have a single bone to pick with this story (which is a VERY rare thing for me to say about any comic). It provided a story that was every bit as entertaining, thought provoking, and powerful as it had the potential to be, and Starlin's artwork was gorgeous as well. Though I plan to make this thread a secondary priority at this point (that had been the plan all along) I'm truly excited to read the ongoing Dreadstar series now.
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2014 6:34:08 GMT -5
"Dreadstar"originally published in: Epic Illustrated #15 (December 1982) grade: B+ It's wonderful to see this series in all its visual glory one last time before it's relegated to the clumsy reproduction quality and lazy inking of the ongoing series that follows. Still, this is an awkward installment, clearly designed more as an advertisement for the ongoing than a worthwhile installment in the series on its own merits. The excessive recaps of everything that has thus far transpired, along with the spacing out throughout this issue of Epic Illustrated so that the cursory browser couldn't possibly avoid it, and the fact that nothing of any true importance occurs within the story all suggest as much. Still, there's a dramatic purpose for this story -- a clear turning point from the tone of the Metamorphosis Odyssey and its sequels towards something different. Whereas the previous stories were impressive in their ability to languish in philosophical depression, touting the hopelessness and cruelty of the universe, this story offers us hope for the first time. There's the random survival of Oedi from Caldor (it was previously suggested in the Marvel Graphic Novel that Vanth had been the only survivor of Caldor), providing Vanth with a friend as well as a reminder of the past he loved and once felt he'd completely lost, there's the addition of a new (as of yet unnamed) compatriot that reminds him of Delilah, his lost love, as well, and he, Oedi and Syzygy are presented like a close knit family as they work together in this issue, all minimizing the sense of total loss Vanth was feeling in the previous story. Finally, there's the whole issue of Vanth attempting to rescue the unnamed female from being crushed under 15 tons of rock. It should be impossible, and she should still be hopelessly crushed even if he manages to get her out. We watch him struggle, fight his own inner demons for strength, gain confidence that he can do it, and yet I fully expected the reveal on the next page to be that the entire gesture had been futile. That would have been consistent with the tone and theme of the previous stories. But no. Vanth is finally in control of his own destiny, finally able to be his own hero in the way that he wants to, and so he succeeds, and the female is even able to walk of her own volition. The impossible is now possible. Starlin is preparing us for a brighter, more optimistic ongoing series. I'm not convinced I'm ready for the shift, but it's an interesting move. Of course, in addition to the change in focus, there is a subtle and yet massive revision made to the entire backstory of the series in the flashbacks Vanth offers. As he says: "I joined forces with [Aknaton], and Earthling named Juliet, the towering Za, and the woodland spirit, Whis'par, to battle the Zygothean conquerors. But the Zygs turned out to be more than we could handle. We just couldn't stop them. So Aknaton turned to the Infinity Horn, his doomsday weapon. We figured everyone would feel as he did. Better dead than living under the tyrannical heel of the Zygoteans." So now they were freedom fighters, actively trying other solutions to stop the Zygoteans before turning to the Infinity Horn as a last resort. Quite a change. I wonder if Starlin is attempting to retroactively make the entire series less dark and a tad more kid friendly. Still, this steals a lot of "umph" from the daring and philosophical brilliance of the original series. Another revision (though less significant): The plan we saw Dreadstar and Syzygy beginning to put into action at the end of the Marvel Graphic Novel has already been abandoned. Too bad. I found government engineering from within and under the radar to be a very intriguing premise. Instead, we're looking at more space-faring and inter-stellar combat. In every way, the new direction for the series charted in this issue feels safer, more crowd pleasing, and potentially more vapid as well. Was it Starlin's idea to make the change, or did Goodwin and the like ask him to adjust course for the sake of creating a more crowd pleasing flagship for their new line of comic books? By the way, this also calls to mind the important detail explained at the beginning of this issue -- Dreadstar was originally intended to be an ongoing lead feature for Bizarre Adventures and was only changed at the last minute when Marvel made the decision to pilot a line of Epic comic books. Too bad. A Bizarre Adventures lead feature could have maintained the quality level required to properly showcase Starlin's art, and perhaps he could have kept the darker tone there as well. Important Details: - Oedi has survived the attack on Caldor and joined with Vanth and Syzygy, though none of this is ever shown/explained. He's just there now. - Syzygy has taught Vanth, "the secret fighting skills of the warrior priests of Sol," "the hidden workings of both the Monarchy and Instrumentality," "how to hype up a photron drive so that I could out-race any government pursuit ship," and "He even taught what little magic I could handle. Unfortunately, I just don't have the right vibratory patterns to be a good sorcerer" - As a result of the Instrumentality developing devastating new weapons to break the stalemate Vanth had created for both empires, Vanth decides to abandon his original plan to work from within The Monarchy, instead deciding to take the battle to the Instrumentality and executing a mysterious "Plan M" that he had devised with Syzygy and which even Oedi is not party to. Minor Details: - The only aspect of the previous stories Vanth doesn't recount is the content of "The Price." I assume this is because, as well as Vanth knows Syzygy by this point, he still doesn't know his origin. - I pointed out in the previous review that there are uncanny visual similarities between this work and Masters of the Universe (which was just coming into prominence in 1982). Just LOOK at Syzygy this time. He's a dead wringer for Skeletor when he wears his hood. Again, who is stealing from who on this one? - "Oedi." I wonder -- is this cat-man somehow a nod to "Odie," the dog from Garfield, an enormously popular cat comic strip on the rise in 1982? Really, it's just starting to feel like Starlin makes a regular habit of borrowing from the zeitgeist of the moment. Vanth's original characterization in 1981 felt very similar to Wolverine's, by 1982 his healing factor is identical to Wolverine's, he lifts his sword like He-Man in 1982, his partner is a dead wringer for Skeletor in 1982, and just maybe he even stole Oedi's name from Garfield and named the idealic planet "Caldor" after the ubiquitous box store chain. I have to believe that at least some of this was intentional, and possibly done with humorous intention(?). Plot synopsis in one sentence: Vanth and Oedi are attempting to steal a cargo freighter from an Instrumentality mining facility while posed as workers there, Vanth spots a woman who resembles his deceased lover, she ends up pinned down under a 15 ton boulder, Vanth flashes back to everything that we already know about him, he makes the boulder a symbol for all his internal conflicts and manages to lift it, freeing the girl, so he and Oedi flee with the stolen ship in order to begin executing Plan M, and it's implied that the woman Vanth rescued has stowed away onboard.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 8, 2018 8:51:09 GMT -5
It's been nearly a year since the Photobucket debacle that shut down all of my review threads, but I've finally gotten around to restoring this one. With Infinity War being the talk of the web right now, I guess I had Starlin on the brain.
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Post by brutalis on May 8, 2018 8:56:36 GMT -5
It's been nearly a year since the Photobucket debacle that shut down all of my review threads, but I've finally gotten around to restoring this one. With Infinity War being the talk of the web right now, I guess I had Starlin on the brain. Totally understand shaxper as Starlin has a way of getting into your brain and messing with it. It is what he has pretty much based all of his stuff on. Warping our thoughts and attitudes creatively to thinking outside of the box (or cosmic cube) and not being mindless sheep...
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 8, 2018 12:43:07 GMT -5
I loved 'Metamorphosis Odyssey' (although the title always seemed self-parodic on Starlin's part) and 'The Price,' but the Dreadstar book was just all right, and for some reason I never enjoyed Dreadstar's comic. I know it was well-regarded and I've never had a clear idea why, but the characters and plots completely failed to engage me.
Also, I have never for once believed Za's world was evolutionary possible.
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Post by shaxper on May 8, 2018 12:46:08 GMT -5
I loved 'Metamorphosis Odyssey' (although the title always seemed self-parodic on Starlin's part) and 'The Price,' but the Dreadstar book was just all right, and for some reason I never enjoyed Dreadstar's comic. I know it was well-regarded and I've never had a clear idea why, but the characters and plots completely failed to engage me. I haven't read the ongoing, but my reservation for doing so comes from the Dreadstar tryout, which just seemed so totally thematically different from what had come before. Too happy as the follow-up to a series that was about cosmic suicide from the very first panel. I wonder if the people who love the Dreadstar ongoing found that series first, and only discovered The Metamorphosis Odyssey in hindsight. Because it's hard to imagine starting with the MO and then moving on to Dreadstar.
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Post by brutalis on May 8, 2018 13:48:56 GMT -5
I loved 'Metamorphosis Odyssey' (although the title always seemed self-parodic on Starlin's part) and 'The Price,' but the Dreadstar book was just all right, and for some reason I never enjoyed Dreadstar's comic. I know it was well-regarded and I've never had a clear idea why, but the characters and plots completely failed to engage me. I haven't read the ongoing, but my reservation for doing so comes from the Dreadstar tryout, which just seemed so totally thematically different from what had come before. Too happy as the follow-up to a series that was about cosmic suicide from the very first panel. I wonder if the people who love the Dreadstar ongoing found that series first, and only discovered The Metamorphosis Odyssey in hindsight. Because it's hard to imagine starting with the MO and then moving on to Dreadstar. You may have hit it right on the head Shax! I LOVED the MO because it was more pure science/fantasy original concepts and then the series comes along and quickly becomes a monthly comic book. Having that "structure" and restrictions (monthly schedule, x amount of pages, pacing, continued story, keep reader interest/etc) hampered what was so unique and exciting about Vanth and company.
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Post by shaxper on May 8, 2018 13:50:31 GMT -5
I haven't read the ongoing, but my reservation for doing so comes from the Dreadstar tryout, which just seemed so totally thematically different from what had come before. Too happy as the follow-up to a series that was about cosmic suicide from the very first panel. I wonder if the people who love the Dreadstar ongoing found that series first, and only discovered The Metamorphosis Odyssey in hindsight. Because it's hard to imagine starting with the MO and then moving on to Dreadstar. You may have hit it right on the head Shax! I LOVED the MO because it was more pure science/fantasy original concepts and then the series comes along and quickly becomes a monthly comic book. Having that "structure" and restrictions (monthly schedule, x amount of pages, pacing, continued story, keep reader interest/etc) hampered what was so unique and exciting about Vanth and company. I think being on the spinner racks forced Starlin to write to an all-ages audience, too.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 8, 2018 16:10:37 GMT -5
You may have hit it right on the head Shax! I LOVED the MO because it was more pure science/fantasy original concepts and then the series comes along and quickly becomes a monthly comic book. Having that "structure" and restrictions (monthly schedule, x amount of pages, pacing, continued story, keep reader interest/etc) hampered what was so unique and exciting about Vanth and company. I think being on the spinner racks forced Starlin to write to an all-ages audience, too. Dreadstar was direct only. No spinner rack considerations.
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Post by shaxper on May 8, 2018 20:30:57 GMT -5
I think being on the spinner racks forced Starlin to write to an all-ages audience, too. Dreadstar was direct only. No spinner rack considerations. Was it originally being considered for spinner racks? There's just such a clear shift to a more upbeat, all-ages tone that seems apropos of nothing that occurs in the work itself.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2018 20:43:19 GMT -5
Dreadstar was direct only. No spinner rack considerations. Was it originally being considered for spinner racks? There's just such a clear shift to a more upbeat, all-ages tone that seems apropos of nothing that occurs in the work itself. That was due to the editorial interference of Jim Shooter who basically stepped in and said Starlin had to make the book appeal to super-hero fans if Marvel was going to publish it, and Starlin tried to accommodate Shooter from the get go, but Shooter kept trying to make it more into a super-hero book and eventually caused Starlin to take the book to First instead. Epic was supposed to be a creator-owned line under Archie Goodwin, but Shooter tried to treat this book in particular like it was under his control and Goodwin ran intereference for Starlin for as long as he could, but a lot of the changes in tone, look, etc. in Dreadstar all trace to Shooter trying to make it a more Marvel-reader friendly book even though it wasn't a Marvel book. -M
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Post by shaxper on May 8, 2018 20:47:11 GMT -5
Was it originally being considered for spinner racks? There's just such a clear shift to a more upbeat, all-ages tone that seems apropos of nothing that occurs in the work itself. That was due to the editorial interference of Jim Shooter who basically stepped in and said Starlin had to make the book appeal to super-hero fans if Marvel was going to publish it, and Starlin tried to accommodate Shooter from the get go, but Shooter kept trying to make it more into a super-hero book and eventually caused Starlin to take the book to First instead. Epic was supposed to be a creator-owned line under Archie Goodwin, but Shooter tried to treat this book in particular like it was under his control and Goodwin ran intereference for Starlin for as long as he could, but a lot of the changes in tone, look, etc. in Dreadstar all trace to Shooter trying to make it a more Marvel-reader friendly book even though it wasn't a Marvel book. -M Jim Shooter...My editorial hero 50% of the time; the world's greatest villain the rest.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 8, 2018 23:50:51 GMT -5
That was due to the editorial interference of Jim Shooter who basically stepped in and said Starlin had to make the book appeal to super-hero fans if Marvel was going to publish it, and Starlin tried to accommodate Shooter from the get go, but Shooter kept trying to make it more into a super-hero book and eventually caused Starlin to take the book to First instead. Epic was supposed to be a creator-owned line under Archie Goodwin, but Shooter tried to treat this book in particular like it was under his control and Goodwin ran intereference for Starlin for as long as he could, but a lot of the changes in tone, look, etc. in Dreadstar all trace to Shooter trying to make it a more Marvel-reader friendly book even though it wasn't a Marvel book. -M Jim Shooter...My editorial hero 50% of the time; the world's greatest villain the rest. I don't know if I could go to 50%; but, Shooter was definitely a better line editor than pretty much anyone else who took a stab at, after Stan. As an individual editor, a great many rank way above him; but, he did more to make Marvel's entire line successful, even if it did stifle the creativity that had been there. At the same time, I think a portion of that creativity had been spent and some of the guys who left had been spinning their wheels, even before they decided to jump ship. I suspect that had Archie been offered something like Epic, by DC, he would have left sooner and turned it into something grand; something more like Vertigo (not so much in tone; but, in recognition and success). I always kind of felt he was at odds with Shooter when it came to Epic. Shooter wanted Epic Illustrated to go after the Heavy Metal audience, while Archie was more concerned with just putting out good material and Epic was never allowed the latitude that Heavy Metal had, in terms of content. The Epic comic line was never really allowed to be what it could be, since Marvel wasn't really willing to give up that much control to creators. Getting back to Dreadstar, I tried the series, a couple of times, starting at the beginning and it always struck me as kind of average space opera, that wasn't quite as engaging. MO and The Price definitely had more meat to it. It felt like it was supposed to have a finality; but, the Dreadstar series was trying to stretch that waaayyy out.
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