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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 17, 2017 15:00:08 GMT -5
While this sprung up from a video game I recently started playing (Tomb Raider PS3), it can apply to other forms of entertainment for myself, or for anyone wishing to voice their opinion. As I mentioned, I was recently playing Tomb Raider. A story of a gal thrown into a violent and dangerous situation against her will. She is an archaeologist (at least in this one, this is my first Tomb Raider game) and was ship wrecked and needs to find the crew on the ship, shelter, food, etc. On the island she crash landed on there is a group of Russians with nefarious plans. While I enjoyed the exploring aspects, I found that the battle turned my stomach. You are first given a bow and a handgun. I remember playing a particular part that I had to repeat (due to my bad playing) and I kept having to repeatedly kill these men. Of course since they have a better arsenal you are forced to get head shots with arrows and it just got to me eventually. Maybe due to the fact that the character is an avatar of my actions, and I was turned off to the amount of realism in my violent acts, even if I was fighting for my life and it wasn't real. As a side clause on games, I am not object to killing monsters, zombies, mutants, aliens, etc., mostly just humans, when it comes to gaming. Though, for the gamers here, I never used the chainsaw on the Lancer in Gears of War. Too much for me. Also I would like more games to have a gore filter like Limbo or Gears of War 3. It might make more games acceptable to those that grew up playing Mario, Metroid and TMNT on the NES, when that level of graphic violence wasn't an option. One, if not, the biggest reason I stopped reading Preacher was due to the violence and gore portrayed by Dillion/Farby. Though some of the story was beginning to wane for me, the violence is what pretty much sealed the deal. Which goes for other modern non Marvel/DC stories like The Boys. I literally couldn't stomach The Walking Dead show, and with my wife and son being a fan, I tried and watched the first 3 seasons (or just before I found out Hershel was going to die and said fuck this show) because the violence was just revolting. And then I see an article on the internet about recent shows, "AMC has to tone down violence in TWD" or something to that effect. I'm not so much wondering about the psychological aspect, i.e. "does violent entertainment make people violent?". But just your personal cap on what you think about violence in entertainment personally effecting you. And how much that effects what you are willing to consume when it comes to violence. As my examples it's obvious mine is more visual. Especially seeing that Thomas Harris is one of my favorite writers. So feel free to add whatever you want, if you want. I am just curious to see what people think on the subject. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 17, 2017 22:44:53 GMT -5
I recently binge-watched all 6 seasons of Game of Thrones and multiple times I found myself saying "Really? You needed to show that?" That covered violence and nudity. The world within it is violent; but, I think you could achieve the same effect without the copious amounts of blood, beheadings, slit throats, etc... Watching it I am reminded of of things like the Max imprint, where profanity seemed to be used because they could, rather than being essential to a character or the story. Same for much of the nudity and violence in GOT, and other shows.
I don't mind violence when it serves a story purpose; but, you don't have to go crazy with it. Hitchcock famously doesn't actually show Janet Leigh being knifed in Psycho. he plants impressions and lets your mind do the rest. To me, that is the mark of a skilled director. Even Silence of the Lambs left more to your imagination than it showed.
I don't think watching violence necessarily desensitizes you to it, depending on your age and experience. i do think kids who get an overdose of it don't recognize the difference between real and simulated violence, when they are presented with real world examples. To wit, the crap people put on Youtube, with people seriously injuring themselves doing stupid stunts or posting fights or crashes, or other violent events. For that, I blame more the so-called news media, which overloads the senses with info-tainment, rather non-chalantly. I was on active duty during the first Gulf War and was sickened by the repeated showings of gun camera footage of missile and bomb strikes, and explosions and the like. Those were real people dying and they were treating it like it was a video game, regardless of the politics involved. Same with the shooting of Ronald Reagan, the footage from 9/11, Columbine, and others.
When it comes to video games, I have more objection to Call of Duty and similar things, which turns actual historical combat into a game. You talk to any large group of veterans, across generations, and you will find a large majority that hoped that later generations wouldn't have to do what they did, even for the right cause. Turning that into a game strikes me, personally, as an insult. People carry scars from real combat, without and within, their entire lives. There is no reboot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 22:51:33 GMT -5
^^^^^^^
Very eloquent. Well thought out. I agree with everything you said. Esp the 2nd & 4th paragraphs
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 18, 2017 12:36:50 GMT -5
I've wondered often how much the changing in violence in humanity and the exposure media gives it might have an effect on how we view it in fiction.
And while I've never had the desire to play Call of Duty and other historical games for what I mentioned in the OP, I tend to avoid movies and other entertainment of wars because I don't wish to see fictionalized accounts of things that really happened. I finally watch Platoon and wished I'd never had; thinking that similar things might and/or did happen. I don't wish to see humanity like that.
And thank you for serving your country Cody. I have a great respect for the bravery it takes to serve in the military.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 18, 2017 13:21:35 GMT -5
It all depends on the context and on the nature of the violence on display. I don't have a problem with gore in and of itself, but I have no patience for scenes of rape or torture. Movies, TV shows, and video games that wallow in calculated cruelty hold no interest for me. On the other hand, I've always enjoyed violent movies starring the likes of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven Seagal, Jackie Chan, and Clint Eastwood, I regularly watch crime shows like CSI or Criminal Minds, and I love violence intensive games like Doom and GTA. My stance isn't necessarily consistent that it is my very own.
Cei-U!
I summon the mixed message!
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 18, 2017 16:27:20 GMT -5
While this sprung up from a video game I recently started playing (Tomb Raider PS3), it can apply to other forms of entertainment for myself, or for anyone wishing to voice their opinion. As I mentioned, I was recently playing Tomb Raider. A story of a gal thrown into a violent and dangerous situation against her will. She is an archaeologist (at least in this one, this is my first Tomb Raider game) and was ship wrecked and needs to find the crew on the ship, shelter, food, etc. On the island she crash landed on there is a group of Russians with nefarious plans. While I enjoyed the exploring aspects, I found that the battle turned my stomach. You are first given a bow and a handgun. I remember playing a particular part that I had to repeat (due to my bad playing) and I kept having to repeatedly kill these men. Of course since they have a better arsenal you are forced to get head shots with arrows and it just got to me eventually. Maybe due to the fact that the character is an avatar of my actions, and I was turned off to the amount of realism in my violent acts, even if I was fighting for my life and it wasn't real. As a side clause on games, I am not object to killing monsters, zombies, mutants, aliens, etc., mostly just humans, when it comes to gaming. Though, for the gamers here, I never used the chainsaw on the Lancer in Gears of War. Too much for me. Also I would like more games to have a gore filter like Limbo or Gears of War 3. It might make more games acceptable to those that grew up playing Mario, Metroid and TMNT on the NES, when that level of graphic violence wasn't an option. One, if not, the biggest reason I stopped reading Preacher was due to the violence and gore portrayed by Dillion/Farby. Though some of the story was beginning to wane for me, the violence is what pretty much sealed the deal. Which goes for other modern non Marvel/DC stories like The Boys. I literally couldn't stomach The Walking Dead show, and with my wife and son being a fan, I tried and watched the first 3 seasons (or just before I found out Hershel was going to die and said fuck this show) because the violence was just revolting. And then I see an article on the internet about recent shows, "AMC has to tone down violence in TWD" or something to that effect. I'm not so much wondering about the psychological aspect, i.e. "does violent entertainment make people violent?". But just your personal cap on what you think about violence in entertainment personally effecting you. And how much that effects what you are willing to consume when it comes to violence. As my examples it's obvious mine is more visual. Especially seeing that Thomas Harris is one of my favorite writers. So feel free to add whatever you want, if you want. I am just curious to see what people think on the subject. There are movies I saw as a child that gave me terrible nightmares. I have always been an anxious person though. 🐱 As a teen, I thought I was "cool" and "goth" or whatever and would collect and read some violent comics and watch some violent movies, but I had limits, but I wouldn't have admitted that at the time. If anything I am probably more sensitive to violence in entertainment now; because I am a survivor of violence. I often start watching things and have to stop. I have only seen portions of a lot of popular movies and TV shows... so I can't really comment too much on them. I can't deal with the Walking Dead either... I did like video games growing up, but I mostly lost interest as a teen if they weren't based on a manga. They used to look like cartoons; now they look like movies; more real. The commercials for new video games freak me out. I was very sheltered raised as a Jehovah's Witness when I was young. Skipping a meeting (what they call their church sessions) and pretending to be sick I stayed home one evening to watch Aliens on Fox from hearing about it in school. That's the first gore I think ever saw and was probably 13-15 or somewhere in there. So no exposure to horror outside of Universal monsters or Hitchcock and no exposure to gore maybe why I have such a weak stomach for gore and violence. Which I guess would have been something pertinent to add to the OP as the discussion goes. And to be fair to TWD, the whole show is despicable. It's humanity at it's worse with very feel moments where people shine. It was depressing, despicable and horrific. When a show starts out with the central characters best friend abandoning him in peril, ____ing his wife and stealing his child; I should have none to punch out after a few episodes. :-) |
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Post by Warmonger on Feb 18, 2017 19:39:10 GMT -5
Only things I really can't stand are rape, child molestation and violence towards animals.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 18, 2017 21:14:24 GMT -5
I recently binge-watched all 6 seasons of Game of Thrones and multiple times I found myself saying "Really? You needed to show that?" That covered violence and nudity. The world within it is violent; but, I think you could achieve the same effect without the copious amounts of blood, beheadings, slit throats, etc... Watching it I am reminded of of things like the Max imprint, where profanity seemed to be used because they could, rather than being essential to a character or the story. Same for much of the nudity and violence in GOT, and other shows. I don't mind violence when it serves a story purpose; but, you don't have to go crazy with it. Hitchcock famously doesn't actually show Janet Leigh being knifed in Psycho. he plants impressions and lets your mind do the rest. To me, that is the mark of a skilled director. Even Silence of the Lambs left more to your imagination than it showed. I don't think watching violence necessarily desensitizes you to it, depending on your age and experience. i do think kids who get an overdose of it don't recognize the difference between real and simulated violence, when they are presented with real world examples. To wit, the crap people put on Youtube, with people seriously injuring themselves doing stupid stunts or posting fights or crashes, or other violent events. For that, I blame more the so-called news media, which overloads the senses with info-tainment, rather non-chalantly. I was on active duty during the first Gulf War and was sickened by the repeated showings of gun camera footage of missile and bomb strikes, and explosions and the like. Those were real people dying and they were treating it like it was a video game, regardless of the politics involved. Same with the shooting of Ronald Reagan, the footage from 9/11, Columbine, and others. When it comes to video games, I have more objection to Call of Duty and similar things, which turns actual historical combat into a game. You talk to any large group of veterans, across generations, and you will find a large majority that hoped that later generations wouldn't have to do what they did, even for the right cause. Turning that into a game strikes me, personally, as an insult. People carry scars from real combat, without and within, their entire lives. There is no reboot. I agree with the majority of what you've written here. I checked on on video games pretty much around the time when it turned from killing monsters in fantasy settings to killing people in real-world settings. I don't watch movies like Saw or Hostel or Human Centipede because I don't need to see humans doing horrific things to other people under the guise of entertainment. As for your thoughts about Game of Thrones, I've only seen one thing on there that made me stop and wonder why it was included, and that was very early on. I think a big part of that is because I've read the books, and compared to the sex and violence in them, the TV show is like an episode of "My Little Pony". It's a world populated by some good people, some bad people, and some just doing what they need to in order to survive. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Feb 18, 2017 21:25:12 GMT -5
Only things I really can't stand are rape, child molestation and violence towards animals. Yeah, thats where I tend to draw the line, especially when it comes to the exploitation film scene. Stuff like Cannibal Holocaust is pretty rephrenhisble in my opinion, no matter what message the filmmakers were trying to make. No animal needs to die for a movie. |
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Post by spoon on Feb 18, 2017 23:22:26 GMT -5
I was very sheltered raised as a Jehovah's Witness when I was young. Skipping a meeting (what they call their church sessions) and pretending to be sick I stayed home one evening to watch Aliens on Fox from hearing about it in school. That's the first gore I think ever saw and was probably 13-15 or somewhere in there. So no exposure to horror outside of Universal monsters or Hitchcock and no exposure to gore maybe why I have such a weak stomach for gore and violence. Which I guess would have been something pertinent to add to the OP as the discussion goes. And to be fair to TWD, the whole show is despicable. It's humanity at it's worse with very feel moments where people shine. It was depressing, despicable and horrific. When a show starts out with the central characters best friend abandoning him in peril, ____ing his wife and stealing his child; I should have none to punch out after a few episodes. :-) Alien and Aliens freaked me out at first too, but having an action movie obsessed older brother got me used to some of these movies eventually. It probably helped that I could identify with Ripley and Newt (and Jonesy the cat of course! 😺), so my interest in the series revolved around them I guess. The Thing is the one that gave me the worst nightmares when I was little. I snuck out of bed for some reason and caught part of it when my Dad was watching it on TV (I may have told this story here before...) Only sat through the whole thing once after reading the comics as a teen. The way you describe TWD is kind of like my impression of it and similar media. It's... not for me. 🐱 I stopped watching TWD before the most recent season. I liked the early season. Then, I yoyo-ed back and forth for a while. I'd get sick of it. Then, I'd get drawn back in hearing about plotlines and because characters were well-developed. But when I heard how they were hyping the premiere with what seemed like torture porn, I finally decided I didn't need to contribute to the phenomenon. But gore isn't the main issue for me. Like adamwarlock2099, I feel like the show is about humanity at its worst, or actually humanity portrayed as worse than it actually is. I'm interested in a show in which people build civilization back up after a zombie apocalypse. The show is interested in showing that the best path in life is to work with a few close friends and distrust, mistreat, and hate everyone else. Over and over again, it portrays other humans as the "real threat". Our cast of good guys are supposed to be the smart ones because they mistrust so many people. And there seem to be as many cruel, anarchistic survivors as benevolent. If an apocalypse like that could happen in the real world, I think the opposite, optimistic way would actually be the smarter one. I think folks that built big complex communities back up would become successful. The best way to survive the zombie threat is to have many trustworthy people watching your back. Ultraviolent anarchists would be ostracized and would be easy for zombies to pick off. I suspect either Kirkman or some of the key people on the show are Ayn Rand disciples, because it seems to play into her values system. On the other hand, I thought the Rick/Lori/Shane dealt with something real and human. I like Alien and The Thing. I think the gore serves a larger purpose, and they are built a lot on suspense (especially Alien) rather than all-out gore. It's hard to explain, but I think there's also a distinction between "body horror" (which can be fascinated) and "torture porn" (which I think plays into a desire to take pleasure in people being harmed). |
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 19, 2017 0:57:58 GMT -5
I recently binge-watched all 6 seasons of Game of Thrones and multiple times I found myself saying "Really? You needed to show that?" That covered violence and nudity. The world within it is violent; but, I think you could achieve the same effect without the copious amounts of blood, beheadings, slit throats, etc... Watching it I am reminded of of things like the Max imprint, where profanity seemed to be used because they could, rather than being essential to a character or the story. Same for much of the nudity and violence in GOT, and other shows. I don't mind violence when it serves a story purpose; but, you don't have to go crazy with it. Hitchcock famously doesn't actually show Janet Leigh being knifed in Psycho. he plants impressions and lets your mind do the rest. To me, that is the mark of a skilled director. Even Silence of the Lambs left more to your imagination than it showed. I don't think watching violence necessarily desensitizes you to it, depending on your age and experience. i do think kids who get an overdose of it don't recognize the difference between real and simulated violence, when they are presented with real world examples. To wit, the crap people put on Youtube, with people seriously injuring themselves doing stupid stunts or posting fights or crashes, or other violent events. For that, I blame more the so-called news media, which overloads the senses with info-tainment, rather non-chalantly. I was on active duty during the first Gulf War and was sickened by the repeated showings of gun camera footage of missile and bomb strikes, and explosions and the like. Those were real people dying and they were treating it like it was a video game, regardless of the politics involved. Same with the shooting of Ronald Reagan, the footage from 9/11, Columbine, and others. When it comes to video games, I have more objection to Call of Duty and similar things, which turns actual historical combat into a game. You talk to any large group of veterans, across generations, and you will find a large majority that hoped that later generations wouldn't have to do what they did, even for the right cause. Turning that into a game strikes me, personally, as an insult. People carry scars from real combat, without and within, their entire lives. There is no reboot. I agree with the majority of what you've written here. I checked on on video games pretty much around the time when it turned from killing monsters in fantasy settings to killing people in real-world settings. I don't watch movies like Saw or Hostel or Human Centipede because I don't need to see humans doing horrific things to other people under the guise of entertainment. As for your thoughts about Game of Thrones, I've only seen one thing on there that made me stop and wonder why it was included, and that was very early on. I think a big part of that is because I've read the books, and compared to the sex and violence in them, the TV show is like an episode of "My Little Pony". It's a world populated by some good people, some bad people, and some just doing what they need to in order to survive. I haven't read the books; but, there is a difference between what the mind conjures, from a description, and what your eyes see. You process it differently. For the most part, I think the show provides good drama and character moments; but, I do think they linger on the gorier stuff way too long, and a lot of sex seems to be there because it's HBO; not because it serves a story purpose. I also noticed that the missionary position seems not to be in favor, in Westeros.  I have become pickier about my entertainment, as I've gotten older. Part of it is the world we have been living in for the last 15+ years. It's dark enough that I just don't want to watch similar stuff, for entertainment. I watch a lot more comedy than I used to, just to brighten things up a bit. Some of it is that Hollywood seems to be in the hands of ADD-addled, arrested adolescent executives who think that 15 minutes of CGI explosions and jump cuts constitutes plot. Of course, that could just be me getting old and cranky. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 19, 2017 9:35:42 GMT -5
For the most part, I think the show provides good drama and character moments; but, I do think they linger on the gorier stuff way too long, and a lot of sex seems to be there because it's HBO. It is. There are actually very few sex scenes in the books, and they're not there to titillate the reader's potential prurient interests. |
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Post by The Captain on Feb 19, 2017 9:42:56 GMT -5
I agree with the majority of what you've written here. I checked on on video games pretty much around the time when it turned from killing monsters in fantasy settings to killing people in real-world settings. I don't watch movies like Saw or Hostel or Human Centipede because I don't need to see humans doing horrific things to other people under the guise of entertainment. As for your thoughts about Game of Thrones, I've only seen one thing on there that made me stop and wonder why it was included, and that was very early on. I think a big part of that is because I've read the books, and compared to the sex and violence in them, the TV show is like an episode of "My Little Pony". It's a world populated by some good people, some bad people, and some just doing what they need to in order to survive. I haven't read the books; but, there is a difference between what the mind conjures, from a description, and what your eyes see. You process it differently. For the most part, I think the show provides good drama and character moments; but, I do think they linger on the gorier stuff way too long, and a lot of sex seems to be there because it's HBO; not because it serves a story purpose. I also noticed that the missionary position seems not to be in favor, in Westeros. I get where you are coming from about the gore, but I look at it as necessary. This is a pre-firearms world, so where a modern story would have a guy taking a bullet between the eyes and having a small hole with a little trickle of blood, this is guys getting disemboweled by axes and having their throats slit by daggers, which is going to be a bit messier. They could maybe tone it down a little, but at the same time, one of the things that Saving Private Ryan was lauded for was the realistic way war was portrayed, particularly when they stormed the beach, so medieval warfare would be just as violent if not more so. As for the sex, yeah, some of it is there because it's HBO. There's a scene in, IIRC, the second season where Littlefinger is in his brothel watching a new girl get "tried out" by one of his veteran prostitutes, and it's nothing more than gratuitous girl-on-girl sex; it's not in the books, and it does nothing for the advancement of the story. HBO also screwed up the portrayal of Daenarys' and Drogo's wedding night, as they showed it to be him forcing himself on her, while in the book, it's actually kind of sweet and consensual. To your point about the missionary position not being favored, a lot of that is story-driven. With the Dothraki, the culture is that the men take who they want when they want, and it is written that they mount their women like their horses; this is why it is important when Daenarys stops Drogo from taking her from behind and she mounts him, because she is then put on equal footing with him, which is a big step in development toward her becoming a queen, as she's no longer a little girl (in the books, she's only 13 at the time she is wed to him) but a strong woman in her own right. As well, true lovemaking is rarely portrayed in the books. The majority of the action is adultery, sex with prostitutes, one-night stands, and rape, so the missionary position, which leans toward the romantic, would be less favored by those sleeping with whores or having a quickie with their mistress, as the men would want to "take their pleasure" and be off. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Feb 19, 2017 11:16:26 GMT -5
I've rarely ever been impressed by action or violence in art, whether in comics or film. Even as a huge fan of horror films, I don't find anything impressive about excessive violence. The most powerful horror films use restraint so that, when violence is portrayed or even suggested, it hits with impact. Otherwise, yes, it desensitizes me, and to the point where it does absolutely nothing for me in terms of entertainment value either. When the newest Star Trek film had twenty minute action scenes with folks dying left and right, I yawned and found my mind wandering.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 12:12:14 GMT -5
What bothers me the most is my friends Children when they play video games that has violence all over the place they became obsessed with it and that alone bothers me when they take actual participation to it and play long hours during the week. I've don't play video games and my nephews do when they were little and when they got older and more wiser - they told me that these games are too violence and felt that it's a total waste of time and monies to spend on. That's my take on it and that's why I feel that video games should teach them more educational stuff and not the violence that comes with it.
I agree that most movies (the blockbusters) have way too much violence and I'm having 2nd thoughts about seeing Logan in a week with friends.
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