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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 18:32:20 GMT -5
I need to read more Legion Stories -- these write ups are very entertaining indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 18:57:26 GMT -5
I grew up in the era of The Hardy Boys Casefiles, with more modern characters and plots. I read and enjoyed them quite a bit, but nothing prepared me for the sheer excitement and joy at finding copies of the original first few books in my grandmother’s basement. Same simplified brown covers. I may have borrowed them forever.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 9:34:25 GMT -5
I grew up in the era of The Hardy Boys Casefiles, with more modern characters and plots. I read and enjoyed them quite a bit, but nothing prepared me for the sheer excitement and joy at finding copies of the original first few books in my grandmother’s basement. Same simplified brown covers. I may have borrowed them forever. Those were my favorites. Full of scenes with the boys driving in "coupes" and "sedans," or prowling around in their boat, "Sleuth." In those adventures, IIRC, they generally stayed close to home. Bayport was much like Smallville, a quintessential small town that had any business, cultural institution, medical facility, research lab or civic building needed for the plot. BTW, if you ever stumble across the Lampoon paperback, This Side of Parodies, read the one on the Hardys. Chums in the Dark, By Henry Beard and Hugo Flesch (from the September 1971 issue). A touch of genius. And your interest in Aunt Harriet will be piqued, let me tell you.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 9:50:54 GMT -5
There was depth and cosmic grandeur alluded to in those comics, and sometimes more than alluded to. I felt like t here was space to enhance things as a reader in your own imagination that maybe other/later/supposedly better comics lacked. The X-Men had that teen club appeal originally too but lost it somewhere, obviously it was completely gone by 1975 up to when Kitty Pryde was introduced (at Jim Shooter's instigation by the way that it be a 'school' again). And then there was 'the planetary chance machine', eep! Edmond Hamilton was/is one of my all-time favorite sf writers however. You've hit on something I see as a key difference between comics "then and now." (You can determine the dates for those moments.) When I look back on particular issues of any title I loved years ago and compare them to more contemporary stories, I almost always wish that the older story could have gone a bit longer and that the modern one could have been way shorter. I know that the latter is largely a response to the trend to publish album versions of stories, with X-number of issues (chapters) in a paperback version, but the trend started before that. Many of the two-issue Legion stories, for example, could have stood just a little bit more breathing room. Endings and denouements were often rushed and abrupt, and even action scenes were contained within smaller panels and restrictive layouts. Weisinger, like Elaine Benes, couldn't spare a square! The 180-degree opposite of that approach are comics with pin-up pages masquerading as story development. I prefer the earlier style, though, for the exact reasons you mentioned, beccabear67 . I could then and do now let my imagination fill in the missing panels. It's like the difference between watching a tightly edited film and an overly indulgent director's cut. That said, I wish that two of the two-part Silver Age Legion stories could have gone just one more issue each: the first Mordru story and the Sun-Eater vs. the Legion and the Fatal Five. Both of those would have been that much better if they had been structured more like Kirby's Mangog saga in Thor in which tension built to an unbearable level as the implacable foe approached. I wonder if Paul Levitz was consciously following that blueprint when he wrote the Great Darkness story.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 10:03:10 GMT -5
I had all but one of those Adventures, but in my case they were from a dusty old bookshop whose owner had cases of unsold stock from the previous proprietor. It was the early '80s and he had a Price Guide, but that was a few years out of date and these '60s comics weren't all into two and three figures (average price was around $1.50, but sometimes less if you were buying a lot at once). Whoever had been through the boxes before me hadn't cared so much for the Legion or the Doom Patrol so I bought one of every issue there and I'd say these two titles there was the most of. I was in a little better luck with the Marvels that there were still quite a few X-Mens somehow and I had a nice long run of them that I'll probably not be able to ever assemble again (from #7 to 51 and then it got spotty). The Adventures starring the Legion were extremely charming, I even had a few early numbers with no Legion, just Superboy and I think Aquaman and Green Arrow. You must also have had those first few stories by teenaged Jim Shooter. Funny how he started out killing Ferro Lad and later made 'history' again with Phoenix as editor. I'm pretty sure I never had more '60s issues of any title than I had of Adventure... oldest was #252 and went all the way to #425 (all kinds of gaps throughout though). Before any of that I had one of those '70s 100 pagers when I was little, and it had a John Forte Legion story reprinted where the girls revolt (they used this idea a few times, once the super-pets revolted and the girls did it again a second time too). I kept hoping I'd find that comic in it's original appearance. It was funny how often DC had stories where characters would suddenly seem to turn bad and attack another character, and this one had it in spades, very weird. Only with the internet can I now see going through the covers which issue this had originally been, #326. So glad John Lennon came along to end war (including the war of the sexes). Thanks for stirring up the dusty memories Hal!Happy to do so and glad you enjoyed them! You're so right about the boys vs. girls trope in the Legion. It was used more than few times, and my guess is it was partly a reflection of the classroom competitions of the time. Spelling bees, selling magazine subscriptions (and in parochial school, donating what they called "mission money" to save pagan babies) often were staged as boys vs. girls. Girls were always portrayed (and in general were) the more mature, more responsible, more studious. Boys were stereotyped (again, mostly correctly) as more interested in sports, far less responsible, and definitely less mature. We often meet the expectations set for us and those days were a perfect example of that. No surprise that Hamilton -- and I agree with your assessment of his writing -- would mine that vein for his young audience. Just thought: Somewhere up above in this thread I remember writing about the Dream Girl effect, both on the male and female Legionnaires, but also on readers like me. Quite a bit of sexual tension in that one.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 10:10:34 GMT -5
You hit it on the proverbial nail head Prince Hal that the Legion appealed to the young teen better than most any other comic book series ever did. When I found the LOSH I was instantly hooked and enjoyed that it "spoke" to me in a way that was different from the other comic book heroes did. It reflected the joys many of us found entering into junior high and high school as our limited social practices began to expand and take in a larger variety of learning and people. Like the Legion did, suddenly I was part of something vaster and grander in scale in high school during my teens. I was growing and learning as an individual and as a part of a group interaction. Growing up in a localized area I was limited to one large neighborhood with no access to other parts of the larger city until I was allowed to ride the newly enlarged bus system as i began high school. That opened new doors for me with lots of adventures as I could travel and meet and see new people outside my own community section. I could connect with the concepts and ideas being explored in the pages of the LOSH that I was reading. This was a time when my own world was suddenly exploding with new things. I was delving deeply into history/historical writings and devouring anything on mythology and foreign cultures while learning to enjoy different forms of writing and specific authors i didn't have access to in our limited school library. Science Fiction was becoming a large portion of my reading and viewing (thank you to Mr. Roddenberry's Star Trek) providing me with all sorts of newer concepts and considerations. All the different powers,cultures and races found in the LOSH spoke to me of a greater world outside of my own home boundaries. The urge to explore and expand my own personal universe was helped by my reading the Legion's adventures...Couldn't agree more, brutalis! So well put. I love hearing about how reading comics, far from being a waste of time, sparked curiosity and interest among us when we were younger readers. Certainly was the case for me. I've already written in other posts in this thread about how going to high school in another town (actually city) changed everything for me. The Legion stories were so good at simply presenting all the different races and cultures you refer to rather than using them as traditional bad guys. For all the space sagas Marvel was doing at the time, it seemed that every alien race encountered by the FF or whoever was a galactic threat: the Badoon, the Kree, the Skrulls, etc. The 25th century in Adventure was far more advanced in that it seemed that different races actually could respect each other and get along for their mutual prosperity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 10:46:56 GMT -5
I grew up in the era of The Hardy Boys Casefiles, with more modern characters and plots. I read and enjoyed them quite a bit, but nothing prepared me for the sheer excitement and joy at finding copies of the original first few books in my grandmother’s basement. Same simplified brown covers. I may have borrowed them forever. Those were my favorites. Full of scenes with the boys driving in "coupes" and "sedans," or prowling around in their boat, "Sleuth." In those adventures, IIRC, they generally stayed close to home. Bayport was much like Smallville, a quintessential small town that had any business, cultural institution, medical facility, research lab or civic building needed for the plot. I too grew up reading & loving the Hardy Boys. Still have all of the original 58 books. These stories (and Tom Swift) were some of my favorites growing up. When I was around 10 yrs old the gas station one block away was robbed. I typed up a "business card" on a 3 X 5 index card and went down to the station to offer my "detective skills". Fortunately the owners were nice people & let me look around to "investigate". I never did solve that case...
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 11:51:10 GMT -5
Those were my favorites. Full of scenes with the boys driving in "coupes" and "sedans," or prowling around in their boat, "Sleuth." In those adventures, IIRC, they generally stayed close to home. Bayport was much like Smallville, a quintessential small town that had any business, cultural institution, medical facility, research lab or civic building needed for the plot. I too grew up reading & loving the Hardy Boys. Still have all of the original 58 books. These stories (and Tom Swift) were some of my favorites growing up. When I was around 10 yrs old the gas station one block away was robbed. I typed up a "business card" on a 3 X 5 index card and went down to the station to offer my "detective skills". Fortunately the owners were nice people & let me look around to "investigate". I never did solve that case... Why not make up a new card and go back offering yourself as an expert in cold cases? (And not the kinds of cold cases I'm an expert in.
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Post by Farrar on Jun 29, 2018 11:55:03 GMT -5
You hit it on the proverbial nail head Prince Hal that the Legion appealed to the young teen better than most any other comic book series ever did. When I found the LOSH I was instantly hooked and enjoyed that it "spoke" to me in a way that was different from the other comic book heroes did. It reflected the joys many of us found entering into junior high and high school as our limited social practices began to expand and take in a larger variety of learning and people. Like the Legion did, suddenly I was part of something vaster and grander in scale in high school during my teens. I was growing and learning as an individual and as a part of a group interaction. Or even elementary school , which is when I first obtained a Legion comic. Like many of you have noted, for us kids it seemed natural, and very appealing, to associate the Legion to our own school experiences. My cousins has some older John Forte-illo'd Adventures so I was somewhat familiar with the Legion, but boy was I giddy when I was finally able to obtain a Legion comic of my very own, Adventure #357, The Ghost of Ferro Lad. So I came in when Shooter and Swan were firmly ensconced as the creative team. At some point I was able to buy back issues and so I had a lot of the older issues by the Hamilton/Siegel-Forte (and Swan) team. As a kid I considered those older issues hopelessly old-fashioned. But rereading them as an adult, I have a much greater appreciation of those pre-Shooter issues. The Forte art was not dynamic; but there's a beauty in its formalism that is very affecting IMO. I love how Forte would frequently use close-ups and how a character's emotion was usually conveyed by a mere raising of his or her eyebrows (I'm thinking of Brainy and Saturn Girl in particular). Also that close-up of an angry Lone/Timber Wolf in Prince Hal's post. Hamilton's and Siegel's stories were more sci fi, more universal; there always seemed to be a bigger message in the stories, apart from the action. Yes, the young Shooter's dialogue made the LSH sound more like teens (or like Marvel), but rereading them I can tell that, yes, this is written by a very young person--lots of "hey pal"s and "okay buddy"s. Maybe because I'm all grown up now (yeah right) I find that stuff a little formulaic and annoying. ETA: I find it interesting how strongly so many of us here as kids gravitated towards the LSH (as opposed to, say, the Teen Titans of that era). It's fascinating to read everyone's stories and experiences!
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Post by Farrar on Jun 29, 2018 12:07:18 GMT -5
A Comic Fan’s Memories, Part 30 The Lure of the Legion (Part Two)5) We readers got to vote for the Legion leader. Pretty cool. That had its good and bad sides IMO. When I first started reading Adventure (1967) a heretofore little used character, Invisible Kid, was the leader; I think possibly it may be because writer Shooter identified with him (brainy, science-nerdy). Anyway this meant that IKid was featured in many issues for a year or so. I grew used to seeing a lot of him. He seemed to be a very important member of the Legion. Then in 1968, it was announced in the lettercol that fans would do the voting for the next leader. So now it was a typical popularity contest, with popular characters like Ultra Boy and Mon-El and so on garnering the most votes. Ex-leader Invisible Kid became, well, invisible. His participation in the stories dramatically decreased. The same popular characters would get the most votes year after year. So, while it was fun for the readers and it let DC know who the fans wanted to see, it also effectively meant that the less flashy characters (like I.Kid) wouldn't get their chance to shine or appear in a lot of issues.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 29, 2018 12:22:49 GMT -5
This only makes sense, because the Legionnaires were teenagers, and those teenage years end when you turn 20. NERD ALERT: I looked through the Legion Constitution, and though it does not state that you had to leave when you “aged out” of your teens, I always got the impression from the stories that this was a club for kids and kids alone. That’s why there was an Adult Legion, after all. In Supergir's first meeting with the Legion (though it was at the time stated to be the children of the Legion that recruited Superboy - weird) she was rejected for membership because red kryptonite had aged her into an adult, and the Legion had an 18 year age limit. Of course, I guess it's possible their rules state that that it's OK if you're already a member, then turn 18 after becoming a member, and only new applicants get rejected for reaching that age limit.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 12:28:02 GMT -5
You hit it on the proverbial nail head Prince Hal that the Legion appealed to the young teen better than most any other comic book series ever did. When I found the LOSH I was instantly hooked and enjoyed that it "spoke" to me in a way that was different from the other comic book heroes did. It reflected the joys many of us found entering into junior high and high school as our limited social practices began to expand and take in a larger variety of learning and people. Like the Legion did, suddenly I was part of something vaster and grander in scale in high school during my teens. I was growing and learning as an individual and as a part of a group interaction. Or even elementary school , which is when I first obtained a Legion comic. Like many of you have noted, for us kids it seemed natural, and very appealing, to associate the Legion to our own school experiences. My cousins has some older John Forte-illo'd Adventures so I was somewhat familiar with the Legion, but boy was I giddy when I was finally able to obtain a Legion comic of my very own, Adventure #357, The Ghost of Ferro Lad. So I came in when Shooter and Swan were firmly ensconced as the creative team. At some point I was able to buy back issues and so I had a lot of the older issues by the Hamilton/Siegel-Forte (and Swan) team. As a kid I considered those older issues hopelessly old-fashioned. But rereading them as an adult, I have a much greater appreciation of those pre-Shooter issues. The Forte art was not dynamic; but there's a beauty in its formalism that is very affecting IMO. I love how Forte would frequently use close-ups and how a character's emotion was usually conveyed by a mere raising his or her eyebrows (I'm thinking of Brainy and Saturn Girl in particular). Hamilton's and Siegel's stories were more sci fi, more universal; there always seemed to be a bigger message in the stories, apart from the action. Yes, the young Shooter's dialogue made the LSH sound more like teens (or like Marvel), but rereading them I can tell that, yes, this is written by a very young person--lots of "hey pal"s and "okay buddy"s. Maybe because I'm all grown up now (yeah right) I find that stuff a little formulaic and annoying. I also started reading the LSH when I was young -- had just turned 9 -- and like so much other literature we liked as kids, it was about characters just a little older than we were. That helped us, as you, beccabear67, and brutalis all point out, to socialize by proxy, to gain some insight into how to behave, what to say, and what would be expected of us when we reached the age of the characters we were reading about. Just a guess, but maybe Weisinger, once he corralled Shooter, wouldn't have been interested in fine-tuning dialogue, b/c he was looking to imitate whatever Marvel did, assumed Shooter would know how kids talk and left it at that. Weisinger would have probably been more interested in which characters to spotlight, how the plot was working, whether a story should be one issue or two and so on. And, yes, the pre-Shooter Legion stories were more genre-oriented, particularly Hamilton's, understandable given his background. I think he also was conscious of portraying the Legionnaires as behaving like adults when they were in action, which befit their status as acclaimed heroes of the galaxy. None of that Marvel-style wisecracking and snarkiness while fighting an enemy stuff. Oh, and there is something weirdly attractive about John Forte art. A great point about those facial expressions. And never have so many heroes stood so stiffly with their arms pressed to their sides. PS: While looking for a good example of Forte's forte, I found this image within a pretty comprehensive and interesting blogpost on Forte's legion art. haven't read it thoroughly yet, but as I scanned it, it seems the writer is also drawn to his art and makes the point that it was perfect for the Legion's young audience.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 12:34:07 GMT -5
A Comic Fan’s Memories, Part 30 The Lure of the Legion (Part Two)5) We readers got to vote for the Legion leader. Pretty cool. That had its good and bad sides IMO. When I first started reading Adventure (1967) a heretofore little used character, Invisible Kid, was the leader; I think possibly it may be because writer Shooter identified with him (brainy, science-nerdy). Anyway this meant that IKid was featured in many issues for a year or so. I grew used to seeing a lot of him. He seemed to be a very important member of the Legion. Then in 1968, it was announced in the lettercol that fans would do the voting for the next leader. So now it was a typical popularity contest, with popular characters like Ultra Boy and Mon-El and so on garnering the most votes. Ex-leader Invisible Kid became, well, invisible. His participation in the stories dramatically decreased. The same popular characters would get the most votes year after year. So, while it was fun for the readers and it let DC know who the fans wanted to see, it also effectively meant that the less flashy characters (like I.Kid) wouldn't get their chance to shine or appear in a lot of issues. Wow, I hadn't realized that, and you are, of course, absolutely right, Farrar! It's funny, I remember specifically when Invisible Kid won, and I was happy b/c it was good to see a minor Legionnaire assume the post. Plus, I had not recalled that the voting for leader hadn't begun until the very late Silver Age. Found this list just now: www.legionworld.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_LSH_leaders/Preboot
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 12:35:56 GMT -5
You hit it on the proverbial nail head Prince Hal that the Legion appealed to the young teen better than most any other comic book series ever did. When I found the LOSH I was instantly hooked and enjoyed that it "spoke" to me in a way that was different from the other comic book heroes did. It reflected the joys many of us found entering into junior high and high school as our limited social practices began to expand and take in a larger variety of learning and people. Like the Legion did, suddenly I was part of something vaster and grander in scale in high school during my teens. I was growing and learning as an individual and as a part of a group interaction. ETA: I find it interesting how strongly so many of us here as kids gravitated towards the LSH (as opposed to, say, the Teen Titans of that era). It's fascinating to read everyone's stories and experiences!YES! Teen Titans was gimmicky and faddish by comparison.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2018 12:37:46 GMT -5
This only makes sense, because the Legionnaires were teenagers, and those teenage years end when you turn 20. NERD ALERT: I looked through the Legion Constitution, and though it does not state that you had to leave when you “aged out” of your teens, I always got the impression from the stories that this was a club for kids and kids alone. That’s why there was an Adult Legion, after all. In Supergir's first meeting with the Legion (though it was at the time stated to be the children of the Legion that recruited Superboy - weird) she was rejected for membership because red kryptonite had aged her into an adult, and the Legion had an 18 year age limit. Of course, I guess it's possible their rules state that that it's OK if you're already a member, then turn 18 after becoming a member, and only new applicants get rejected for reaching that age limit. There you go! Not that the writers didn't contradict themselves, especially in the Shooter era and beyond, but I thought the idea had taken root somehow. This may have been where I read it, too.
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