shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 15, 2018 11:05:01 GMT -5
The Titans de-powering Donna, adding Duella Dent, fighting Two-Face and moving to Gotham feels alot like them trying to make the Titans a Batman book to me. I know it didn't quite work that way back then (it was all about who edited) but the parallel is striking to me. Personally, I have some difficulty to understand why they did de-powered Donna and I just find it a hard swallowed pill to gulp down with and adding Duella Dent and makes me not to liked this version at all. Could be that Bob Rozakis is intentionally trying to de-power the team. His entire vision is that they are B or C list heroes who shouldn't be taking down first rate threats like the Justice League does. And really... we've got no Lilith A depowered Wonder Girl A Kid Flash who gets dizzy when he runs too long A Speedy who has now missed twice in four issues A Mal whose horn gives him really arbitrary help An Aqualad who is sick and doesn't seem to do much when he isn't And Duella Dent...who doesn't do anything. Oh, absolutely. Six regular issues and a few cameo appearances before we get there. Not too far away.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 11:08:09 GMT -5
Your points are well taken ... thanks for this recap!
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Dec 15, 2018 11:44:53 GMT -5
Flamesplasher? It's probably a god thing that not all of the villains get names.
What the hell is a flamesplasher?
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 15, 2018 11:52:58 GMT -5
What the hell is a flamesplasher? Apparently, you've never worked a fast food deep-fryer.
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 15, 2018 13:16:42 GMT -5
Personally, I have some difficulty to understand why they did de-powered Donna and I just find it a hard swallowed pill to gulp down with and adding Duella Dent and makes me not to liked this version at all. Could be that Bob Rozakis is intentionally trying to de-power the team. His entire vision is that they are B or C list heroes who shouldn't be taking down first rate threats like the Justice League does. And really... we've got no Lilith A depowered Wonder Girl A Kid Flash who gets dizzy when he runs too long A Speedy who has now missed twice in four issues A Mal whose horn gives him really arbitrary help An Aqualad who is sick and doesn't seem to do much when he isn't And Duella Dent...who doesn't do anything. Par for the course for '70s comics. Here's something I think about a lot but have never articulated on this board - Superhero comics from the mid '80s and up tended to be a lot more blatant in their power fantasies. Characters from the '50s and '60s either avoided physical conflicts or had a larger-than-life Kirby sheen to them. Characters in the '70s were a lot more human, a lot less effective, got their ass kicked waaaaaay more, and had to work quite a bit harder for their victories. This was especially true at Marvel, but it filtered down to DC a little bit as well. I blame this on the more adult superhero audience in the '80s. Adults have more personal agency and free choice than kids, so superheroes have to be more powerful to work as a power fantasy for grown-ups than they do for 11 year olds.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 15, 2018 13:26:28 GMT -5
Characters in the '70s were a lot more human, a lot less effective, got their ass kicked waaaaaay more, and had to work quite a bit harder for their victories. This was especially true at Marvel, but it filtered down to DC a little bit as well. I agree with this and suspect we're talking about DC's efforts to catch up with Marvel yet again. Marvel often used the limitations of powers to sell us on the human factor, and yet, a decade and a half later, DC still doesn't fully understand that a moment like this one: is NOT the same as a moment like this one: Marvel has heart. DC is trying their best to create a working imitation of one.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 15:32:03 GMT -5
What the hell is a flamesplasher? Apparently, you've never worked a fast food deep-fryer. I was one for 18 months ... and I hated that job, the reason is that the job had a horrible working conditions that nobody wants to work it. I quit after 18 months and found another job two months later ...
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Dec 16, 2018 5:43:04 GMT -5
In Mego's defense, they were not in the habit of basing figures on lesser known characters, even if they were part of a then-current group title, hence the reason characters like The Avengers' Hawkeye or the Vision were not produced at the time, when they were in the comic. Mego certainly consulted/worked with DC on which characters could be adapted, and what was best not only for Mego's but DC's bottom line where licensing was concerned. Regarding the Robin figure, Mego was certainly aware of Robin as a member of the Titans in the comics, as they were directly dealing with DC, and up to that time, Robin was the lone "frontman" or leader of the group, a perception that continued even as the character was sent to college. There's a more likely reason: its highly doubtful economically-minded Mego would have spent the money on what was likely seen as an unnecessary and expensive retooling (which would be more than just sticking the existing Robin head on a smaller body) just to match him to the Titans figures. The only time Mego went that far was in the major gimmick of their "Fist Fighting" figures of Batman, Robin, Riddler and the Joker, which--being from the world of Batman--were quite popular hero vs. villain parings expected to be bought almost as a set, the theory being that no one would want a Fist Fighter Batman without an equally equipped Joker to fight against, etc. Titans #46 (February 1977) "The Fiddler's Concert of Crime!" Oh, boy. Not many, considering the fate of this revival title. The cover--by Rich Buckler and Frank McLaughlin--is so rough and just plain wrong in capturing the characters that it almost looks like the kind of crude amateur art one would see on the Xeroxed covers of 1970s comic fanzines. Buckler was as wrong for the kind of fluid, youthful characters the Titans were as any other "should not happen" artist/character combinations (e.g., Kirby's Batman for the Super Powers miniseries or Colan's was Spider-Man). Aside from the title instantly losing that critical cover sales appeal, that's not the worst of this issue's problems... Eh, I would counter by saying the last quarter of the original Titans comic played up relationships in a way that led to anything Rozakis tried. It was not Lee/Romita's Amazing Spider-Man of the same period (and I've certainly criticized the title's creatives for not going as far with maturing the characters as Robin was in the Bat-titles), but the title was trying to be a bit different in handling the characters than what was seen in its Brave and the Bold origins. Is that really a Rozakis thing? Other DC titles of the time would reference previous stories, characters, etc. For example, I recall the Bates/Cockrum (and post) period of Superboy starring the Legion of Super-Heroes often referring to its own history / world-building. Yeah...by this period in pop culture history, their kind of musician was as dated as the beatniks seen in episodes of late 1950s/early 60s TV like Maynard G. Krebs from The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis (which--by the way--DC once adapted as a monthly). See? DC did not marginalize him! He's blowing his horn.... Teen Titans #47 (April 1977) "Trouble -- Which Rhymes with Double!" ...sure does. It also rhymes with rubble...as in what this title was turning into. Rozakis--like other writers before him--seem too obsessed with the landmark Speedy-as-disillusioned/bitter-junkie (and its aftermath) to grow the character beyond or trading on the effects of that one storyline. The Amazing Spider-Man had that problem post-1974 with Harry Osborn, and never allowed that character to be completely free of his demons, so he became one-note. That's not character development. In other words, Mal being Mal, the Teen Titans comic being the Teen Titans comics. Okay, I have to defend DC here; if you're calling staff nicknames a rip on Marvel, EC/MAD did that long before Marvel and popularized the idea of their talents being more than just the lines and words on a page, but real people you might feel familiar with. An odd choice. For Robin, its a natural for obvious reasons, but for a superhero group? Ehh....no.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 18, 2018 1:28:30 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. Six regular issues and a few cameo appearances before we get there. Not too far away. Yay! Just curious.. at which point to you decide it they'd completely ruined the team.. Team Titans? Cyborg and Beast Boy going crazy? The Wedding? Arsenal? Never?
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 18, 2018 8:06:09 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. Six regular issues and a few cameo appearances before we get there. Not too far away. Yay! Just curious.. at which point to you decide it they'd completely ruined the team.. Team Titans? Cyborg and Beast Boy going crazy? The Wedding? Arsenal? Never? I originally jumped ship with "Titans' Hunt," though I've since heard it was actually a pretty decent storyline/shake-up. I feel the true apex of the series wrapped up with the first storyline in New Teen Titans volume 2. After the whole Trigon encounter (Perez's final contribution to the franchise for many years, I believe), issue #6 is all character reflection, serving as a perfect wrap-up to the Wolfman/Perez era, and then it's all downhill from there. Not bad, but a serious decline in quality is evident after this issue. As for how far I'll take the reviews, who knows? Ideally, I'd go to Graduation Day, after which the Teen Titans are a totally different team, but I may not have the patience to go that far. Lots and lots of lackluster work before getting to that point.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 18, 2018 8:10:32 GMT -5
Same here... when they turned Jericho I was pissed... then Titans Hunt was bad, and I dropped it. I came back for the wedding, and, well, that was that.
They later series by Johns is decent (probably the only thing he's written that I liked) and the last time we get to see the team together before DC started messing with continuity.
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Dec 18, 2018 10:20:05 GMT -5
My Titans collection stops with the last Garcia-Lopez issue but I essentially agree with shax's cut-off point. The series was never the same after Perez left.
Cei-U! I summon the fall from grace!
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Dec 18, 2018 22:31:06 GMT -5
My Titans collection stops with the last Garcia-Lopez issue but I essentially agree with shax's cut-off point. The series was never the same after Perez left. Cei-U! I summon the fall from grace! So where does yours start? I'm curious if you've held onto the Rozakis issues
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Dec 19, 2018 0:57:49 GMT -5
Is that really a Rozakis thing? Other DC titles of the time would reference previous stories, characters, etc. For example, I recall the Bates/Cockrum (and post) period of Superboy starring the Legion of Super-Heroes often referring to its own history / world-building. Probably more of a Julius Schwartz thing. Or even more likely, an asisstant-to-Schwartz E. Nelson Bridwell thing. ENB was THE continuity man at DC long before Robert Greenberger became their "continuity cop."* Not entirely sure about that. I believe McCartney was still hitting the charts at the time, and the Carpenters were, if not still on the charts, not long off of them. Then again, I was a kid at the time, so it's not like I was reading Billboard every week or anything. I rather liked this issue when it came out, but as noted above, I was pretty young. Reading it decades later is fun though... if I recall right, the personal lives of the Carpenters were more rock-star like than the squeaky clean image the record company pushed. They wanted marijuana legalized, and Richard married his cousin (in fairness, she was adopted). So the (high? )Flyers and the "apple pie" Woodworkers being the same people becomes much more plausible in that light. * Why, yes, I am explaining the continuity of the people who kept track of continuity.
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Dec 19, 2018 12:43:41 GMT -5
My Titans collection stops with the last Garcia-Lopez issue but I essentially agree with shax's cut-off point. The series was never the same after Perez left. Cei-U! I summon the fall from grace! So where does yours start? I'm curious if you've held onto the Rozakis issues I have Brave and Bold #60 and Teen Titans #1 and 40-41 in the originals but I have both volumes of the Showcase Presents collections (Cardy looks damn fine in black & white). Of the new stuff, I have DC Comics Presents #26, New Teen Titans #3, 6, 8-40, and Annuals 1-3, Tales of the Teen Titans #41-58, the 4-issue Tales of the New Teen Titans mini-series, New Teen Titans (the Baxter book) #1-9, two of the three Keebler anti-drug giveaways, plus various guest appearances in Batman and The Outsiders, Brave & Bold, World's Finest, Wonder Woman, et al. I also have the Archive edition of New Teen Titans #1-8 signed by Wolfman and Perez. And I have digital copies of all these runs.
Cei-U! I summon the comics cornucopia!
|
|