shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Dec 13, 2018 16:11:19 GMT -5
Me. I have no problem with this cover. In fact, I, generally, like Rich Buckler's DC covers of the era. Some are better than others, to be sure (like his Freedom Fighters cover, for issue #9; just wish he had been drawing the book). I look at it and am curious to see why the team is fighting each other. I'm curious why Donna's karate chop to Robin's shoulder doesn't go right through his body Or why Speedy's arrow is 1/4th the size of Kid Flash's face. Or why the fiddle is giving off stink clouds instead of musical notes. I'm also curious why The Fiddler's "package" is the primary focus of the cover. It truly is an odd mix, and it's almost charming in that respect. Campy, DC plot and heroes meet Marvel-inspired continuity/interpersonal relationships. She's not so much bothering me here as she is confusing me. Why is she permitted on this team? Why is she still going as The Joker's Daughter? The ruse served its purpose. It was a means to getting her on the team, so now she's on the team. I'm thinking it's either laziness or a licensing issue. Helena Wayne's first appearance is still ten months away. It just might be possible Levitz was borrowing from Rozakis. Me too. It works less well here in a comic that sometimes wants to be taken seriously, but I can deal with flying Fiddle mobiles if the characterization is firing on all engines. It isn't. And I LOVE Super Goof
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Dec 13, 2018 16:12:32 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this is an age issue. You and I are about the same age. Shax is, I believe, a fair bit younger. While I'm not crazy about the cover I don't find anything at all wrong with it. And it has enough hook that I might have (but didn't) bought it off a spinner rack at the time. I am a child of the 1980s, for sure, but Bronze Age comics are my second love (Copper Age being my first).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 23:11:49 GMT -5
I'm wondering if this is an age issue. You and I are about the same age. Shax is, I believe, a fair bit younger. While I'm not crazy about the cover I don't find anything at all wrong with it. And it has enough hook that I might have (but didn't) bought it off a spinner rack at the time. I am a child of the 1980s, for sure, but Bronze Age comics are my second love (Copper Age being my first). I'm a child of the late 1950s, and Golden Age comics are my first love (Silver Age being my second). We are polar opposites ...
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Dec 14, 2018 0:42:35 GMT -5
I'm with Cody. I think the overall design of the Fiddler cover is very strong - Good use of semi-symmetry in how the "mirror images" relate to each other and it's cool how the design incorporates three separate contrasting figure groups that aren't even interacting with each other at various distances from the "camera" (As well as the Logo!) into parts of a whole image without being remotely confusing. Honestly I think realistic elements should be ignored if it makes the overall design stronger or more pleasing to the eye.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 14, 2018 1:25:55 GMT -5
Me. I have no problem with this cover. In fact, I, generally, like Rich Buckler's DC covers of the era. Some are better than others, to be sure (like his Freedom Fighters cover, for issue #9; just wish he had been drawing the book). I look at it and am curious to see why the team is fighting each other. I'm curious why Donna's karate chop to Robin's shoulder doesn't go right through his body Or why Speedy's arrow is 1/4th the size of Kid Flash's face. Or why the fiddle is giving off stink clouds instead of musical notes. I'm also curious why The Fiddler's "package" is the primary focus of the cover. It truly is an odd mix, and it's almost charming in that respect. Campy, DC plot and heroes meet Marvel-inspired continuity/interpersonal relationships. She's not so much bothering me here as she is confusing me. Why is she permitted on this team? Why is she still going as The Joker's Daughter? The ruse served its purpose. It was a means to getting her on the team, so now she's on the team. I'm thinking it's either laziness or a licensing issue. Helena Wayne's first appearance is still ten months away. It just might be possible Levitz was borrowing from Rozakis. Me too. It works less well here in a comic that sometimes wants to be taken seriously, but I can deal with flying Fiddle mobiles if the characterization is firing on all engines. It isn't. And I LOVE Super Goof One of the things in reading the comics, sporadically in this era, was that there wasn't always a consistency in power levels. Especially Wonder Girl. Wolfman and Perez did far more to establish her strength levels than a lot of the original Titans comics that I read (and I haven't read the entire original run). She was one of those whose power seemed to reflect whatever was needed within the particular story. That was always a problem I had with Dr Strange, as sometimes he seemed nearly godlike, and others it seemed like he had more problems pulling a rabbit out of a hat than Bullwinkle. So, in this era, Wonder Girl chopping Robin doesn't seem so out of place, because I hadn't seen her chop through engine blocks. My fuzzy memory is a lot more lasso than physical. Wolfman really liked the character and seemed to beef her up and Perez loved drawing her feats of strength. DC simplistic stories and attempts at Marvel character development were a real source of frustration at DC, in the mid 70s. You'd get a cool idea and they seemed to want to develop the characters; but, it would end up more of the cliche of arguing teams, with lame villains of plots that never quite rose above the average. Or, you got a really great issue, then 4 mediocre ones. or, you had revolving creative personnel and no one seemed to know what to do (like on the 4th World revival or SSSV). Of course, at Marvel, the frustration would be sudden interruptions of a storyline, because someone couldn't hit a deadline or plots that didn't seem to go anywhere, but were drug out over several issues, or they couldn't figure out how to end it. Then you'd get a really strong storyline and a personnel change would throw it off. Marvel had just as many cool ideas that proved disappointing. I loved the idea of Black Goliath; but, they had trouble finding a threat for Bill Foster to face and, they had taken the character down a bit, from his earlier Avengers appearances, when they threw him at Luke Cage. Then, his series had to follow that and try to get him back to cool scientist, yet somehow more "street." It just didn't work, as he wasn't a Luke Cage type. He was a black Henry Pym, yet he wasn't given Henry Pym adventures. Books like The Champions just seemed like a random collection of unused characters, for no good reason and never really had a roadmap and never really go anywhere.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 9:04:27 GMT -5
I actually like that cover....5 year old me would have been drawn right to it, haha! I love almost all of Rich Buckler's covers from that era and would have loved to see him as the interior artist on Teen Titans. At the time, I am guessing DC was aiming comics still at children? Perhaps this is the reason for the more silly plots and simple covers? Sure, these stories don't quite pack the punch of modern comics, but they sure are fun to read and look at!
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Post by rberman on Dec 14, 2018 10:45:21 GMT -5
One of the things in reading the comics, sporadically in this era, was that there wasn't always a consistency in power levels. Especially Wonder Girl. Wolfman and Perez did far more to establish her strength levels than a lot of the original Titans comics that I read (and I haven't read the entire original run). She was one of those whose power seemed to reflect whatever was needed within the particular story. That was always a problem I had with Dr Strange, as sometimes he seemed nearly godlike, and others it seemed like he had more problems pulling a rabbit out of a hat than Bullwinkle. So, in this era, Wonder Girl chopping Robin doesn't seem so out of place, because I hadn't seen her chop through engine blocks. My fuzzy memory is a lot more lasso than physical. Wolfman really liked the character and seemed to beef her up and Perez loved drawing her feats of strength. This is true not only of comic books but of serialized heroic literature in general. The hero faces a foe much stronger than him and barely wins. The hero faces a foe comparable to himself and barely wins. The hero faces a foe ostensibly weaker than himself and barely wins. Any character who punches holes in walls would be punching much bigger holes in people. Attempts to argue "A>B and B>C therefore A>>C" often don't hold true in these heroic story-cycles because there's usually no drama in A crushing C with his pinkie.
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Post by dbutler69 on Dec 14, 2018 13:07:57 GMT -5
Well, I was born in 1969 (which I guess makes me a child of the 70's or early 80's) and I think the cover is pretty good.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 15, 2018 8:25:38 GMT -5
I was reading some recently acquired Flash comics from around this time (1978) and apparently there are a couple Wally West as Kid Flash back ups! It's Flash 265-267 to be exact.. it seems like they were hoping to make it a regular feature, but it clearly didn't last, so maybe people didn't like it.
They establish that Wally plans to 'retire' from superheroing after college, and they give him a girlfriend.. no mention of the Titans at all, much like the Robin stories.. though I suppose by the time these ran, the Titans had just recently disbanded.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Dec 15, 2018 9:03:39 GMT -5
I was reading some recently acquired Flash comics from around this time (1978) and apparently there are a couple Wally West as Kid Flash back ups! It's Flash 265-267 to be exact.. it seems like they were hoping to make it a regular feature, but it clearly didn't last, so maybe people didn't like it. They establish that Wally plans to 'retire' from superheroing after college, and they give him a girlfriend.. no mention of the Titans at all, much like the Robin stories.. though I suppose by the time these ran, the Titans had just recently disbanded. I was aware of these and wasn't going to check them out, but the retiring from superheroing bit is compelling. I guess that truly didn't come out of nowhere when Wolfman brought it up in the pages of the New Teen Titans. Thanks! And it sure seems like everyone here but me really likes that cover. Okay, no problem. No offense taken. I can go with the flow and be a team player. In fact, I'm thinking of redesigning the CCF logo to reflect its brilliance. What do you guys think of the prototype?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 15, 2018 9:31:10 GMT -5
You didn't miss much (with the Kid Flash backups), so that was a good choice
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Dec 15, 2018 10:03:00 GMT -5
Teen Titans #47 (April 1977) "Trouble -- Which Rhymes with Double!" Script: Bob Rozakis Pencils: Bob Brown Inks: Tex Blaisdell Colors: ? Letters: Ben Oda grade: B I don't care what you people say, I still hate these covers. This time around, the coloring is less gross and more washed out, but Mal's upper body moving forward at a different angle than his lower body really really bothers me every time I look at this thing. I really do think it's Buckler's poses/anatomy that bug me more than anything else. His depictions of extreme movements look totally unnatural to me. Fortunately, I feel differently about the content within. I never expected to say it, but Rozakis is getting better. Instead of dredging up some forgotten D list villains this time, he creates his own, and they're actually pretty cool: (as well as their counterparts, who never get named)and they create some pretty decent action that's a lot less silly/illogical than before: In fact, I was enjoying the uniqueness of these villains and their doubles/opposites so much that I totally missed where Rozakis was leading us with all of this until it was already too late: Honestly...I didn't see it coming. And he's still having a lot of fun with maintaining a running continuity on this title for once, with having The McCarthy's (from last issue) performing at the opening of the Titans' new club/HQ (still not sure I get the logic in that one), Aqualad dealing with a serious illness that will be addressed in future issues, and Karen Beecher back since last being seen in #44, enigmatically sewing something while making a promise she'll be keeping next issue: Interesting that the colorist has her sewing one of Mal's shirts. I would have figured she'd be sewing her own costume. Both choices work in very different ways.Of course, Rozakis is still flubbing his attempts to Marvel-ize the book in several respects. For one, his characterizations are still shoddy. Robin now cracks ill-timed bad jokes once per issue, Speedy just continues to get mad at absolutely everyone, and no one else seems to have any personality to speak of. Mal is failing to grow into a worthwhile hero, still missing a costume and codename, but now also lacking a personality and failing to do anything interesting with his newfound horn. codystarbuck pointed out that Wonder Girl's powers have been depicted very inconsistently, and while I don't feel that was a significant issue in the original run, it's apparent and concerning here: If Donna has no personality, AND is now no stronger than Duella Dent, what the hell is she bringing to this title? Another way in which Rozakis' efforts to Marvel-ize are feeling a tad desperate and lacking at this point happens on the first page: C'mon, man. That's just plain theft. But speaking of characterization, we are seeing the first fan letters about the relaunch in this issue's letters page, and while the feedback is generally favorable (do keep in mind Rozakis is the one picking which letters to include), we get two letters begging for the return of Lilith. While Rozakis answers every other letter he prints, he side-steps these, and then gives us a story in which Duella Dent can suddenly do this: I can't decide whether he is f**king with us, or whether he was really going to have Duella Dent assume Lilith's powers and role on the team and then suddenly changed his mind (or got directed to abandon that route). After all, that final explanation that Two-Face was the one giving Duella those mental messages is never explained and seems like a last second cop-out. Rozakis is never going to produce a perfect Titans script, but this was by far his best one yet, and I hope that indicates a continuing upward trend from here on out. Important Details:- First time the Teen Titans face a major villain (Two-Face) - HQ is moved to Gabriel's Horn, a club in Farmingdale, Long Island NY (this issue confirms their previous city of operation was Gotham) - 2nd cameo appearance of Karen Beecher
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 15, 2018 10:44:17 GMT -5
I haven't read any of this era of the Titans, with the exception of #52 (which I got in a $1 bin at one point and was super disappointed in at the time)... seems really similar to what Marvel did with the New Warriors at the end of the original run... after being a really popular team in their own right for a good 4-5 years, sales drops, and Marvel decided to add Ben Reilly to the team and make it a Spider-Man book (which lasted less than a year before cancellation.
The Titans de-powering Donna, adding Duella Dent, fighting Two-Face and moving to Gotham feels alot like them trying to make the Titans a Batman book to me. I know it didn't quite work that way back then (it was all about who edited) but the parallel is striking to me.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Dec 15, 2018 10:49:53 GMT -5
adding Duella Dent, fighting Two-Face and moving to Gotham feels alot like them trying to make the Titans a Batman book to me. A lot of this does correlate with the book being absorbed by Julie Schwartz's office. Of course, the Titans have moved to Long Island, NY as of this issue, and they will be leaving Schwartz's office in four months.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 11:01:28 GMT -5
The Titans de-powering Donna, adding Duella Dent, fighting Two-Face and moving to Gotham feels alot like them trying to make the Titans a Batman book to me. I know it didn't quite work that way back then (it was all about who edited) but the parallel is striking to me. Personally, I have some difficulty to understand why they did de-powered Donna and I just find it a hard swallowed pill to gulp down with and adding Duella Dent and makes me not to liked this version at all. I agree with you that they made it another Batman book and that's not the Titans that I used to like. That's bothers me and your point about the parallel hits me. That's the reason that I stopped reading these books. shaxper ... Are you planning on doing this book and the issues afterwards?
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