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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 8, 2018 13:53:51 GMT -5
Teen Titans #39 (June 1972)  "Awake, Barbaric Titan!" Script: Bob Haney Pencils: George Tuska Inks: Nick Cardy Colors: ? Letters: John Costanza grade: D- We've seen this book wrestling with its identity for more than two years now, and we're still no closer to a final direction for the series with this odd outing, in which the horror elements are completely abandoned, and Gnarrk The Cave Teen is back and central to this story after his forgettable first appearance a full year earlier. I mean...why? Sure, Gnarrk is polished and classy now:  but he's essentially just a DC version of the X-Men's Beast, and rather than functioning as part of the team, he takes center stage as the team works around him and his quest for identity in modern society. The big solution at the end -- you can neither be a caveman nor an intellectual pacifist. Instead, "A real man has both brains AND brawn!" Not sure I can get behind that message, myself. And that's most of what this issue is. I mean, there's a globe-trotting adventure story framing all of this in which modern day Wild West Bandits utilize a helicopter, a secret hidden cave, and an easily misled lost tribe of natives to cover their tracks that feels straight out of a Carl Fallberg Mickey Mouse adventure of the 1940s, but it isn't particularly well done. Respect for the attempt, though. It's just a very very forgettable story centered around a very very forgettable character. Unfortunate during a stretch in which we've had some issues where Haney really and truly hit it right. This is clearly not one of those issues. Important Details:- Whoops. Donna's full name is now given as "Donna Drake". - Implied that Gnarrk has been a full member of the team since Teen Titans #33 and just hasn't been featured in the past few stories for some reason. Fortunately, this is the last we will be seeing of the character until the Bob Rozakis reboot. Minor Details:- Haney tries to be clever in explaining the limitations of Kid Flash's powers  ...all while Mr. Jupiter somehow stopped him before he was able to run off? A few pages later, a native clubs him over the head while he's running. This story makes that little sense. - What is Haney doing with Mr. Jupiter? We've gotten the sense over the past few issues that the guy is a bit of a creep, but it's never acknowledged by the Titans nor by the narration. I keep passing it off as being a product of the time period. But Haney really pours it on throughout this issue:   And the most glaring example of the issue comes after the natives have set up a gauntlet for beating and killing the Titans while Gnarrk debates about using violence to solve his problems. From behind a locked door, Mr. Jupiter comes up with this solution:   ...and it fails. Lilith is immediately clubbed on the head. Is Haney deliberately trying to get the readers to turn on Mr. Jupiter? Might make sense. Mr. Jupiter was introduced very shortly after Haney had been booted from the book, and he was the means of taking the team in a new, un-Haney direction. Haney might have a very personal stake in ensuring the character doesn't stick around long enough to undermine his vision for the team again. I am skipping the Hawk and Dove backup features in this issue as they do not directly pertain to the Teen Titans. However, this is my first time reading the origin of Hawk and Dove (via a retelling), and I'm amazed at just how lame their origin is. A random "voice" that just gives them costumes and powers out of nowhere? Truly forgettable issue all around. It actually hurt to read this one. Yep, the Voice of God (or Rama Kushna or Issenbard, the narrator of Danger Mouse. or.....) gives them their powers. It was never that strong a a concept; it just had Ditko on art, which still didn't save it. Problem was, it was Ditko's concept and another example of his Randian views interfering with his storytelling. Hawk and Dove had the further problem of Steve Skeates and Steve Ditko being on vastly different pages, which is part of what made Dove a costumed punching bag. |
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Post by MDG on Nov 8, 2018 15:32:42 GMT -5
Yep, the Voice of God (or Rama Kushna or Issenbard, the narrator of Danger Mouse. or.....) gives them their powers. It was never that strong a a concept; it just had Ditko on art, which still didn't save it. Problem was, it was Ditko's concept and another example of his Randian views interfering with his storytelling. Hawk and Dove had the further problem of Steve Skeates and Steve Ditko being on vastly different pages, which is part of what made Dove a costumed punching bag. Wasn't it at one point the Lords of Chaos/Lords of Order that gave H&D their powers? Seemed they were all over the DCU for a while.
It would've been interesting to see where Ditko would've gone with it if he didn't have to pull out for health reasons (and, of course, it didn't get cancelled). I think he was less interested in a "credible" origin as he was just getting the story going. But even reading it as a kid, the concept of a team where one guy just wants to beat the crap out of everybody and his partner continually tries to stop him seemed a bit half-baked.
That said, I've got an end-of-story half-page from issue 2 that shows in 3 panels why Ditko is a great storyteller.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 17:05:41 GMT -5
Thoughts on issue 39...I agree, pretty forgettable. Kid Flash and Wonder Girl could have easily mopped the floor with the natives and I believe Robin and Speedy could've held their own. At this point in their careers, I really don't understand why they are still under Mr Jupiter's watch. Who knows what editorial wanted from the title (if anything) and Haney was just cranking out stories for a paycheck? By now, I wonder if Haney and company knew the title was up for cancellation.
Gnarrk.....interesting premise with him that really wasn't realized. I like how in the story, he was quite erudite and had secured employment (and seemed quite successful). The prejudice/fear he faced from his co-workers was an angle that would really be played up today and no doubt that swinging caveman would have a lawsuit! I always wanted Gnarrk to meet Java from Metamorpho. Perhaps they were from the same tribe or something or had crossed paths. They would certainly have lots to talk about.
Not a bad plot...just not realized in the best way? I am still entertained by this issue...and this era of the team. Excellent review and very good points!
As for the Hawk and Dove featurette...their origin never really bothered me with the voice and how they got their powers. I was more intrigued with the mystery of who the voice was and the opposition between the brothers. They always struck me as vastly different but still cared deeply for one another. Siblings not getting along to the max?
I do admit to having a bias with the groovy Titans and Hawk and Dove, as I am a huge fan, haha!
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 8, 2018 17:32:13 GMT -5
Yep, the Voice of God (or Rama Kushna or Issenbard, the narrator of Danger Mouse. or.....) gives them their powers. It was never that strong a a concept; it just had Ditko on art, which still didn't save it. Problem was, it was Ditko's concept and another example of his Randian views interfering with his storytelling. Hawk and Dove had the further problem of Steve Skeates and Steve Ditko being on vastly different pages, which is part of what made Dove a costumed punching bag. Wasn't it at one point the Lords of Chaos/Lords of Order that gave H&D their powers? Seemed they were all over the DCU for a while.
It would've been interesting to see where Ditko would've gone with it if he didn't have to pull out for health reasons (and, of course, it didn't get cancelled). I think he was less interested in a "credible" origin as he was just getting the story going. But even reading it as a kid, the concept of a team where one guy just wants to beat the crap out of everybody and his partner continually tries to stop him seemed a bit half-baked.
That said, I've got an end-of-story half-page from issue 2 that shows in 3 panels why Ditko is a great storyteller.
Chaos and Order came into play later on, with the revival/new mini-series (you know, the one where Karl Kesel massively cleans up Liefeld). That was a factor in Doctor Fate, Hak & Dove and some other series, which, quite frankly, got annoying after the mcguffin was used in more than one series. It was like someone had read the back cover synopsis of Moorcock's Eternal Champion novels and nothing more; then, started inserting that idea into everything. They seemed to miss the "balance" angle, that Moorcock explored, and which is central to things like taosim, when talking about yin and yang. |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 8, 2018 18:53:08 GMT -5
Thoughts on issue 39...I agree, pretty forgettable. Kid Flash and Wonder Girl could have easily mopped the floor with the natives and I believe Robin and Speedy could've held their own. At this point in their careers, I really don't understand why they are still under Mr Jupiter's watch. Who knows what editorial wanted from the title (if anything) and Haney was just cranking out stories for a paycheck? By now, I wonder if Haney and company knew the title was up for cancellation. Cancellation is still 8-10 months away, but there is a clear awareness that the title is in trouble; thus two separate attempts to revamp the title with Mr. Jupiter/costumeless Titans and now this inconsistent turn towards the horror genre. I tend to think it's the opposite of Haney not caring, though. The Titans were his baby from Day One, and Mr. Jupiter represents an entirely alien direction for the title that runs contrary to his own. Steve Skeates seemed to be moving away from using Mr. Jupiter in the first part of his run (#28-31), but Mr. Jupiter suddenly came back, as if by editorial edict. When Haney took over, he made a point to have Mr. Jupiter present in (and usually funding/instigating) each adventure, but never directing the team nor really playing any significant role in the stories, and his "jerkish" behavior has been increasing with each issue. Sure feels like Haney is required to have Mr. Jupiter present in the stories and yet is actively working against the character's success. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 19:25:45 GMT -5
I'll be brief, ever since Mr. Jupiter appeared in Teen Titans in Teen Titans #25 and I understand that he was responsible for the funding of the TT and having said that -- I lost all interest in this character and felt that Teen Titans went to another directions and felt that when Dick Grayson left for College at some point, the Titans lost a step and that's bothers me a great deal. I find Mr. Jupiter a bit distance and when Lilith Clay came to picture this team just lost on me and that's made me very sad and that's when the team disbanded later on. In short, I did not care for this team when Mr. Jupiter came into the scene.
Sorry about the negative views ... I just lost interest in this group because of Mr. Jupiter and Lilith Clay ...
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 8, 2018 19:48:03 GMT -5
Hey shaxper, I saw the Teen Titans silver age omnibus for 57 dollars on the instocktrades site. Is it worth getting it ? |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 8, 2018 21:23:23 GMT -5
Hey shaxper, I saw the Teen Titans silver age omnibus for 57 dollars on the instocktrades site. Is it worth getting it ? That's a really tough question to answer. I've enjoyed re-reading this run a lot more than I expected to, but it definitely has its low points, and it never reaches the complexity/depth of the later Wolfman/Perez run. Still, Nick Cardy's pencils and inks are fantastic in so many places, a handful of the scripts truly and unexpectedly soar, and I love watching one of my favorite superhero teams of all time grow through their awkward origins. Beyond that...well, I've got an entire thread worth of reviews you can read  |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 8, 2018 21:25:39 GMT -5
Sorry about the negative views ... I just lost interest in this group because of Mr. Jupiter and Lilith Clay ... I get the dislike for Mr. Jupiter. Fortunately, he's really only prominent in a handful of stories. Otherwise, he's more or less there without doing much to drive the story or the team. I definitely don't get the hate for Lilith though. What didn't you like about her? |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 8, 2018 21:44:25 GMT -5
Brave and the Bold #102 (July 1972)  "The Commune of Defiance" Script: Bob Haney Pencils: Jim Aparo (pages 1-13); Neal Adams (pages 14-21); Dick Giordano (page 22) Inks: Jim Aparo (pages 1-13); Dick Giordano (pages 14-22) Colors: ? Letters: Jim Aparo; John Costanza grade: A- This story feels like a light revision of the previous Batman/Titans team-up in Brave and the Bold #94 a year earlier. Batman discovers he has turned a blind eye on a corner of the city that has now been taken over by teens demanding justice, the bureaucrats resort to violence instead of hearing them out, and Batman works to earn the teens' trust but ultimately decides he needs the Titans to step in on his behalf. And, just like last time, while this story really doesn't showcase the Titans at all, it does a beautiful job continuing to sell Haney's idea that empowered teens can change the world. The Titans teach the teens of Barclayville the power of civil disobedience:  and help them to actually improve the town so that Gotham will allow it to remain under their control:  Throughout this section of the story, Haney and Neal Adams truly get us invested in this process of organic urban renewal to the point where we can actually feel a dream coming to fruition. It's beautiful.  But the true icing on the cake comes with the transformation of Angel, a crooked woman working for her crime-boss boyfriend, who is reluctantly inspired by these teens to the point that she single-handedly saves the day from his clutches:  It's powerful and utterly lacking in Haney hokeyness. Minor Details:- This has got to be one of the most un-Batman moments I have ever seen:  Did Batman just say "Delicious"? In the end, this story doesn't do much for the Titans team itself, but it does a ton to further the Haney ideals that continue to shape and guide the franchise. What readers found inspiring in 1964 is only getting more believable and poignant in 1972. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 8, 2018 22:02:54 GMT -5
Hey shaxper , I saw the Teen Titans silver age omnibus for 57 dollars on the instocktrades site. Is it worth getting it ? That's a really tough question to answer. I've enjoyed re-reading this run a lot more than I expected to, but it definitely has its low points, and it never reaches the complexity/depth of the later Wolfman/Perez run. Still, Nick Cardy's pencils and inks are fantastic in so many places, a handful of the scripts truly and unexpectedly soar, and I love watching one of my favorite superhero teams of all time grow through their awkward origins. Beyond that...well, I've got an entire thread worth of reviews you can read I've read most of the reviews and it seems like a subpar series. I remember reading it when they decided to chuck their uniforms. What a bummer... |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 8, 2018 22:49:50 GMT -5
That's a really tough question to answer. I've enjoyed re-reading this run a lot more than I expected to, but it definitely has its low points, and it never reaches the complexity/depth of the later Wolfman/Perez run. Still, Nick Cardy's pencils and inks are fantastic in so many places, a handful of the scripts truly and unexpectedly soar, and I love watching one of my favorite superhero teams of all time grow through their awkward origins. Beyond that...well, I've got an entire thread worth of reviews you can read I've read most of the reviews and it seems like a subpar series. "Hit or miss" would describe it best. Here is a list of the issues I gave an A to. There were many Bs, but I figured you were more interested in seeing where the true cream of the crop was. Of course, your mileage may vary (while I hated the idea of the Titans surrendering their costumed identities, I ended up giving As to all three of the issues for which that lasted): Teen Titans #4Teen Titans #14Teen Titans #16Teen Titans #19Brave and the Bold #83Teen Titans #25Teen Titans #26Teen Titans #27Teen Titans #34Brave and the Bold #102And, while I haven't gotten to Teen Titans #43 yet, I ranked it as my third favorite comic horror story of all time for The CCF Long Halloween 2014 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 23:36:52 GMT -5
Sorry about the negative views ... I just lost interest in this group because of Mr. Jupiter and Lilith Clay ... I get the dislike for Mr. Jupiter. Fortunately, he's really only prominent in a handful of stories. Otherwise, he's more or less there without doing much to drive the story or the team. I definitely don't get the hate for Lilith though. What didn't you like about her? Lilith the way DC Comics handled her ... she if I recalled in certain issues that she had some amnesia and that alone making her a serious problems for understanding her. I just did not care how they managed that and that's really bothers me alot and later on I learned that she disassociated with the Titans and that's not a good thing at all. DC Comics creative team did a bad job handling a potentially good character that had telekinetic power and illusion powers that could been used for the betterment of the team and because of that they blew it altogether and being an illegitimate daughter of Mr. Jupiter didn't helped much either. That's why I just find her to be more a problematic character and didn't do so well with Haze either causing more problems that you think. It's bothers me greatly and that why I did not care for her at all. I hope you understand that and that's why I just having a hard time dealing with her. This is my best answer that I can give you Shax. |
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Post by zaku on Nov 9, 2018 1:23:29 GMT -5
Minor Details:- This has got to be one of the most un-Batman moments I have ever seen: Did Batman just say "Delicious"? In the end, this story doesn't do much for the Titans team itself, but it does a ton to further the Haney ideals that continue to shape and guide the franchise. What readers found inspiring in 1964 is only getting more believable and poignant in 1972. -... is he walking on the sidewalk in broad daylight...?  |
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 9, 2018 2:47:14 GMT -5
Teen Titans #39 (June 1972) "Awake, Barbaric Titan!" Script: Bob Haney Pencils: George Tuska Inks: Nick Cardy Colors: ? Letters: John Costanza grade: D- We've seen this book wrestling with its identity for more than two years now, and we're still no closer to a final direction for the series with this odd outing, in which the horror elements are completely abandoned, and Gnarrk The Cave Teen is back and central to this story after his forgettable first appearance a full year earlier. I mean...why? I think in the grand scheme of things, the "why" is a series that was running on the fumes of its novelty concept (teen hero group in the Silver/Bronze Age), so anything was run up the flagpole to see if anyone would salute. With editorial decisions not on the same page company-wide, the one & only direction this title should have taken/borrowed was the maturing process of Dick Grayson as seen in Batman and Detective Comics--but apply that to the entire team. That's the one sensible point of the story--its self-deceiving for a man to pretend he can live without his necessary sides; one cannot reject his natural, masculine traits in favor of pure intellectualism, and similarly, one cannot run on said masculine traits alone and toss the intellectual traits over his shoulder. Both are crucial on shaping any real man. In fiction, unlike Stevenson's Henry Jekyll--who had two sides so exaggerated that their internal "war" of self-rejection and guilt only had one possible outcome, there has to be a union of both sides in order to not just function, but survive--essentially the conclusion reached by Spock about the temporarily split/ineffective Kirk in Richard Matheson's "The Enemy Within" episode of Star Trek. I believe that's the message this issue was trying to get across, but by no means as powerful or insightful about the human condition. You think??  |
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