shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 7, 2014 8:41:32 GMT -5
Deadly Hands of Kung Fu has nothing to do with the Master of Kung Fu title. Trying to establish connections between the two mags is tilting at windmills. So I've heard, but at this early point, nothing is aligned (not even the stories within Giant-Size MoKF #1), so I'm waiting to see this for myself, not because I don't trust the countless people who have already told me this, but rather because I'm delightfully stubborn  |
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Post by paulie on Aug 7, 2014 8:46:01 GMT -5
Well you can't go wrong with the Marvel Black and White magazines from say '72-'75. They were always overloaded to where they were almost erratic and supremely fun.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 7, 2014 10:58:05 GMT -5
More than anything, I'll be curious to see if I can determine why a decision was made not to align the two titles. Moench is writing both, so it wouldn't have been hard to do. I understand that you couldn't have anything occur in Deadly Hands that would have an impact on the color title because it reached a smaller niche audience, but simply aligning the two wouldn't have been that difficult to pull off.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 7, 2014 11:06:03 GMT -5
More than anything, I'll be curious to see if I can determine why a decision was made not to align the two titles. Moench is writing both, so it wouldn't have been hard to do. I understand that you couldn't have anything occur in Deadly Hands that would have an impact on the color title because it reached a smaller niche audience, but simply aligning the two wouldn't have been that difficult to pull off. It was probably easier to prepare several unrelated stories for the B&W mag and build up an inventory, publishing them whenever was more convenient, than coordinating the two publications. Not saying that it would have that hard, but it's still an added measure of headache for the writer and the editor; each story would have had to be published in exactly the right order, and each would have had to acknowledge what happened in both mags without forcing the reader to buy them both to make sense of what's going on. (I remember being upset when I was left high and dry by the Celestial Madonna storyline in Avengers, not being able to get the Giant Size Avengers title). They probably decided that going the Conan the barbarian / Savage sword way was the easiest. |
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,872
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Post by shaxper on Aug 7, 2014 11:09:37 GMT -5
More than anything, I'll be curious to see if I can determine why a decision was made not to align the two titles. Moench is writing both, so it wouldn't have been hard to do. I understand that you couldn't have anything occur in Deadly Hands that would have an impact on the color title because it reached a smaller niche audience, but simply aligning the two wouldn't have been that difficult to pull off. It was probably easier to prepare several unrelated stories for the B&W mag and build up an inventory, publishing them whenever was more convenient, than coordinating the two publications. Not saying that it would have that hard, but it's still an added measure of headache for the writer and the editor; each story would have had to be published in exactly the right order, and each would have had to acknowledge what happened in both mags without forcing the reader to buy them both to make sense of what's going on. (I remember being upset when I was left high and dry by the Celestial Madonna storyline in Avengers, not being able to get the Giant Size Avengers title). They probably decided that going the Conan the barbarian / Savage sword way was the easiest. Makes sense, and Moench has stated that he wrote a lot of the early black and white Curtis inventory in late night writing marathons, so it stands to reason he might continue to do that with Deadly Hands. Is it safe to assume, then, that once Moench starts taking Shang-Chi more seriously, he also takes MoKf more seriously than Deadly Hands? |
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 7, 2014 11:44:23 GMT -5
More than anything, I'll be curious to see if I can determine why a decision was made not to align the two titles. Moench is writing both, so it wouldn't have been hard to do. I understand that you couldn't have anything occur in Deadly Hands that would have an impact on the color title because it reached a smaller niche audience, but simply aligning the two wouldn't have been that difficult to pull off. I think they were going for a different or expanded market. The B&W mags could be sold in magazine racks not the comics turners, and done without the Comics Code. They didn't want to make it necessary for readers to also read the comics. |
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Post by paulie on Aug 7, 2014 12:04:39 GMT -5
It was probably easier to prepare several unrelated stories for the B&W mag and build up an inventory, publishing them whenever was more convenient, than coordinating the two publications. Not saying that it would have that hard, but it's still an added measure of headache for the writer and the editor; each story would have had to be published in exactly the right order, and each would have had to acknowledge what happened in both mags without forcing the reader to buy them both to make sense of what's going on. (I remember being upset when I was left high and dry by the Celestial Madonna storyline in Avengers, not being able to get the Giant Size Avengers title). They probably decided that going the Conan the barbarian / Savage sword way was the easiest. Makes sense, and Moench has stated that he wrote a lot of the early black and white Curtis inventory in late night writing marathons, so it stands to reason he might continue to do that with Deadly Hands. Is it safe to assume, then, that once Moench starts taking Shang-Chi more seriously, he also takes MoKf more seriously than Deadly Hands? I've never even thought of Deadly Hands as anything but "Some Neal Adams covers with lots of Bill Mantlo stories..." so it's funny to hear you put it this way. But yes... Deadly Hands? Nothing to see here... |
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Post by paulie on Aug 7, 2014 12:07:12 GMT -5
More than anything, I'll be curious to see if I can determine why a decision was made not to align the two titles. Moench is writing both, so it wouldn't have been hard to do. I understand that you couldn't have anything occur in Deadly Hands that would have an impact on the color title because it reached a smaller niche audience, but simply aligning the two wouldn't have been that difficult to pull off. It was probably easier to prepare several unrelated stories for the B&W mag and build up an inventory, publishing them whenever was more convenient, than coordinating the two publications. Not saying that it would have that hard, but it's still an added measure of headache for the writer and the editor; each story would have had to be published in exactly the right order, and each would have had to acknowledge what happened in both mags without forcing the reader to buy them both to make sense of what's going on. (I remember being upset when I was left high and dry by the Celestial Madonna storyline in Avengers, not being able to get the Giant Size Avengers title). They probably decided that going the Conan the barbarian / Savage sword way was the easiest. I always wondered about the Giant Size conundrum. I grew up in the Shooter era so I lived in a world where if Iron Man 137 was supposed to take place before Avengers 209 then I could rest assured they'd be on the stands in that order.
Was not being able to GS Avengers due to the Canadian distribution system, your age and ability to get to the newsstand, or erratic distribution?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 12:12:00 GMT -5
More than anything, I'll be curious to see if I can determine why a decision was made not to align the two titles. Moench is writing both, so it wouldn't have been hard to do. I understand that you couldn't have anything occur in Deadly Hands that would have an impact on the color title because it reached a smaller niche audience, but simply aligning the two wouldn't have been that difficult to pull off. You can change Moench to Thomas and Shang to Conan and you have the same situation on the color Conan the Barbarian and Savage Sword of Conan. They didn't line up either and no one really seemed to want them to. They were each their own thing. The monthly color comic told an ongoing narrative and the mag just told stories featuring the character at different points in Conan's career with different sensibilities than the monthly color book. Could they have lined them up? Sure-but they didn't want to. It was kind of the point of the b&w mags, to be something different. -M |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 7, 2014 12:28:31 GMT -5
It was probably easier to prepare several unrelated stories for the B&W mag and build up an inventory, publishing them whenever was more convenient, than coordinating the two publications. Not saying that it would have that hard, but it's still an added measure of headache for the writer and the editor; each story would have had to be published in exactly the right order, and each would have had to acknowledge what happened in both mags without forcing the reader to buy them both to make sense of what's going on. (I remember being upset when I was left high and dry by the Celestial Madonna storyline in Avengers, not being able to get the Giant Size Avengers title). They probably decided that going the Conan the barbarian / Savage sword way was the easiest. I always wondered about the Giant Size conundrum. I grew up in the Shooter era so I lived in a world where if Iron Man 137 was supposed to take place before Avengers 209 then I could rest assured they'd be on the stands in that order.
Was not being able to GS Avengers due to the Canadian distribution system, your age and ability to get to the newsstand, or erratic distribution?
The town I lived in had very few American comics, and those we got were apparently whatever was left after all the newsstands from Montreal to Rimouski had picked what they wanted, so I never saw any Giant-size title. I read Avengers in its translated form, published by Éditions Héritage, but only the regular series was translated; neither annuals nor Giant-size books were included. (One painful memory from those days is that I did see a copy of Marvel-two-in-one annual #2 when it first saw print... and I stupidly left it there!!! It took me years to correct that mistake!!!) |
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Post by paulie on Aug 7, 2014 12:41:21 GMT -5
I always wondered about the Giant Size conundrum. I grew up in the Shooter era so I lived in a world where if Iron Man 137 was supposed to take place before Avengers 209 then I could rest assured they'd be on the stands in that order.
Was not being able to GS Avengers due to the Canadian distribution system, your age and ability to get to the newsstand, or erratic distribution?
The town I lived in had very few American comics, and those we got were apparently whatever was left after all the newsstands from Montreal to Rimouski had picked what they wanted, so I never saw any Giant-size title. I read Avengers in its translated form, published by Éditions Héritage, but only the regular series was translated; neither annuals nor Giant-size books were included. (One painful memory from those days is that I did see a copy of Marvel-two-in-one annual #2 when it first saw print... and I stupidly left it there!!! It took me years to correct that mistake!!!) HAHAHA... MTIO Annual #2 is a good one! a very good one!
I figured it had something to do with the wilds of Quebec.
We used to go to Quebec City when I was a kid and never noticed a language barrier. But when we'd drive through Quebec to Ottawa and stop for breakfast or lunch then you'd notice that English was not really used.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 17, 2014 23:44:51 GMT -5
Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #4  "Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu" writer: Doug Moench pencils: Mike Vosburg inks: Al Milgrom editor: Tony Isabella featuring supporting characters created by Sax Rohmer grade: C I'm still waiting for these stories to become enjoyable. I realize Moench was thrust into this franchise on a moment's notice (while also being thrust into several other titles) and given a colossal amount of output to generate very quickly, so I have high hopes we'll see things improve soon. For now, this story was...okay. Some positive things in this story: Vosburg draws terrible faces, but he does some interesting things with layout and perspective, especially on that title page. Moench references Nayland Smith once again, suggesting that he's a bit more versed in the property at this point and will soon be getting back to familiar territory beyond Shang-Chi taking on random thugs and assassins each issue with no further suggestion of a direction for the series. Fu Manchu's perspective on Shang-Chi having not been killed at the end ("It is true that I sought to punish my son. But I also sought Chow Loo's punishment. Therefore, by forcing a contest between the two, I had already assured that only I could emerge the victor") is both intriguing and nonsensical. Finally, Shang-Chi dismayed by a bunch of stoners lighting up, instead preferring to meditate -- It's the kind of thing you could only see in magazine format. Then, the negatives: Moench is still confusing Japanese and Chinese martial arts, this time having one of Fu Manchu's assassins employ the weapons of a ninja and having Shang-Chi intricately familiar with the fighting style of the ninja. Why would Fu Manchu bestow an important amulet he once offered to Shang-Chi to a cowardly assassin who is easily defeated? Shang-Chi battling an ape with the brains of a human assassin would have made for one killer cover, but it's utterly absurd as a plot device. Fu Manchu was renowned for his cruel biological experiments, but I doubt they were ever this silly. Moench is doing a poor job of adhering to his own ideas, or perhaps he just wrote these stories out of order and hadn't yet plotted Master of Kung Fu #21, which firmly establishes what has been hinted at all along: Fu Manchu isn't trying to kill Shang-Chi. He's merely toying with him. Fu Manchu appears to have forgotten this, as does Shang-Chi when he demands to know why a useless assassin sent after him has been ordered to kill him. Odd in a creative run in which every single issue Moench has written has centered around ill-equipped people being sent to kill Shang-Chi. Granted, Fu Manchu was the one who sent the killers in only one Moench story thus far, but this is still not the first time this has happened. Minor Details: - I assume we never see nor hear of "The Circle of Serpent's Blood" again even though it's now back in Fu Manchu's possession. - Moench's ornately prosaic writing hasn't found its center yet, but I really enjoyed the following lines about the water treatment plant: Since man has tampered with nature's water, polluting it with waste and chemicals...this purification plant has been erected to intercept that pollution. It is here that man again tampers with the water, introducing still more chemicals...these designed to render nature once again fit to be consumed by man. I am reminded of Yin-- --And Yang... plot synopsis: Nayland Smith has informed Shang-Chi that Fu Manchu is trying to kill him, Shang-Chi attempts to make himself an easy target, is attacked by an assassin wearing the Circle of Serpent's Blood amulet Shang-Chi once refused from his father, he easily defeats the assassin but gives him back the amulet and his life and is told that Fu Manchu plan to poison the water supply in Los Angeles (a lie), Shang-Chi hitches a ride with hippies to Los Angeles and a largely wasted opportunity for philosophy and/or comedy ensues, Fu Manchu punishes the failed assassin by putting his brain in the body of an ape and arranges for the two to face off again at the water treatment facility, and Shang-Chi wins, inadvertently killing the ape man. |
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Post by paulie on Aug 20, 2014 10:26:50 GMT -5
Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #4 "Shang-Chi, Master of Kung Fu" writer: Doug Moench pencils: Mike Vosburg inks: Al Milgrom editor: Tony Isabella featuring supporting characters created by Sax Rohmer grade: C I'm still waiting for these stories to become enjoyable. I realize Moench was thrust into this franchise on a moment's notice (while also being thrust into several other titles) and given a colossal amount of output to generate very quickly, so I have high hopes we'll see things improve soon. For now, this story was...okay. Some positive things in this story: Vosburg draws terrible faces, but he does some interesting things with layout and perspective, especially on that title page. Moench references Nayland Smith once again, suggesting that he's a bit more versed in the property at this point and will soon be getting back to familiar territory beyond Shang-Chi taking on random thugs and assassins each issue with no further suggestion of a direction for the series. Fu Manchu's perspective on Shang-Chi having not been killed at the end ("It is true that I sought to punish my son. But I also sought Chow Loo's punishment. Therefore, by forcing a contest between the two, I had already assured that only I could emerge the victor") is both intriguing and nonsensical. Finally, Shang-Chi dismayed by a bunch of stoners lighting up, instead preferring to meditate -- It's the kind of thing you could only see in magazine format. Then, the negatives: Moench is still confusing Japanese and Chinese martial arts, this time having one of Fu Manchu's assassins employ the weapons of a ninja and having Shang-Chi intricately familiar with the fighting style of the ninja. Why would Fu Manchu bestow an important amulet he once offered to Shang-Chi to a cowardly assassin who is easily defeated? Shang-Chi battling an ape with the brains of a human assassin would have made for one killer cover, but it's utterly absurd as a plot device. Fu Manchu was renowned for his cruel biological experiments, but I doubt they were ever this silly. Moench is doing a poor job of adhering to his own ideas, or perhaps he just wrote these stories out of order and hadn't yet plotted Master of Kung Fu #21, which firmly establishes what has been hinted at all along: Fu Manchu isn't trying to kill Shang-Chi. He's merely toying with him. Fu Manchu appears to have forgotten this, as does Shang-Chi when he demands to know why a useless assassin sent after him has been ordered to kill him. Odd in a creative run in which every single issue Moench has written has centered around ill-equipped people being sent to kill Shang-Chi. Granted, Fu Manchu was the one who sent the killers in only one Moench story thus far, but this is still not the first time this has happened. Minor Details: - I assume we never see nor hear of "The Circle of Serpent's Blood" again even though it's now back in Fu Manchu's possession. - Moench's ornately prosaic writing hasn't found its center yet, but I really enjoyed the following lines about the water treatment plant: Since man has tampered with nature's water, polluting it with waste and chemicals...this purification plant has been erected to intercept that pollution. It is here that man again tampers with the water, introducing still more chemicals...these designed to render nature once again fit to be consumed by man. I am reminded of Yin-- --And Yang... plot synopsis: Nayland Smith has informed Shang-Chi that Fu Manchu is trying to kill him, Shang-Chi attempts to make himself an easy target, is attacked by an assassin wearing the Circle of Serpent's Blood amulet Shang-Chi once refused from his father, he easily defeats the assassin but gives him back the amulet and his life and is told that Fu Manchu plan to poison the water supply in Los Angeles (a lie), Shang-Chi hitches a ride with hippies to Los Angeles and a largely wasted opportunity for philosophy and/or comedy ensues, Fu Manchu punishes the failed assassin by putting his brain in the body of an ape and arranges for the two to face off again at the water treatment facility, and Shang-Chi wins, inadvertently killing the ape man. You know how many of us here share your love for the Marvel black and white mags but I can't help myself from harrying you towards the main title. We haven't been saying "Hey world's biggest Doug Moench fan... read Deadly Hands of Kung Fu!"
But while were on the topic of this issue... Mike Vosburg and Al Milgrom is going to get me to place an ebay bid on this Deadly Hands #4 any time soon.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2014 12:05:02 GMT -5
I hear you, paulie. I guess I'm waiting for the point where there's actually a quality difference between the two titles. Right now, Moench's MoKF isn't all that better.
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Post by paulie on Aug 20, 2014 12:17:50 GMT -5
The series essentially 'starts' with Giant-Size #2 and Giant-Size #3.
Then you have the first trilogy with issues 29-31.
That's really what we've been driving you towards the last 2 years.
I am interested to see what you think of #27 though which has the rarely seen art team of John Buscema and Frank Springer. I think they look fantastic together.
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