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Post by tartanphantom on Jun 10, 2024 9:45:24 GMT -5
I borrowed A Contract With God by Will Eisner from the library and read it for the first time. It was an interesting read, especially the local color aspects, but I didn't feel reverence towards it. It was darker than I expected, although I didn't know what to expect. I guess I anticipated there would be more love for the community rather than portraying most significant characters negatively. There's a lot of awful "ordinary people" in these stories. I also didn't realize it would be a quick read. So many pages were one panel, to the extent an image without a frame is a panel. Eisner's lettering also was a big element, which is interesting as I had just finished reading some comics by Jim Aparo who also frequently lettered comics that he drew. Of the four stories, the title story was probably my least favorite. The central idea of the contract didn't make sense to me, because you need a meeting of the minds. Like at least give me a scene where Frimme Hersh imagines God giving him a sign of acceptance. It's hard to get invested without knowing why he thinks the contract exists. The Street Singer is very bleak, but I find the human stories and the ironic plot twists intriguing. The Super is emotive and tragic, but Eisner used a really conceit to push his story. It reminds me of Gone With The Wind. Lots of people think of it as a brilliant film, but to me a movie that traffics in so much Lost Cause dishonesty is fatally flawed. The Super's portrayal of a young child a seductress is fairly loathsome and reflective of the excuses predators make for their behaviors. Cookalein is interesting for the local color and how different stories are weaved together. But one of the subplots reminded me of the theory that Dinah being tortured in The Longbow Hunters reflecting Grell punishing her for (I think maybe it was for not wanting to have children IIRC). On the one hand, it should be fair game to explore how people can date people who turn out to be jerks for superficial reasons and realize it later. On the hand, I think after just having read The Super, the comeuppance part of a particular subplot in The Cookalein felt misogynistic. Just wondering if you knew that the title story in A Contract With God is semi-autobiographical? The setting is based on the tenement housing that Eisner grew up in as a child and young man, but Eisner wrote the plot as a cathartic expression of his own anger and questioning of God after the loss of his 16-yr. old daughter.
The last story, Cookalein is also autobiographical, and more directly so. Eisner even uses the names of actual family members.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 10, 2024 12:15:52 GMT -5
Read the original Marvel Zombies. It was everything I expected it would be: ugly and dumb. Oh, well, at least it doesn't take itself seriously. I absolutely hate grimdark superhero deconstructions which think they're profound, and this definitely isn't that. I guess horror comedy and superheroes just don't gel together for me. Something that I always found unique about Sylar from Heroes was that he was a cannibal who ate people's brains in order to obtain their powers (This was kind of similar to Rune from the Ultraverse, about a cosmic vampire who survives purely by feasting on Ultrahumans). To me, that idea would have been infinitely more interesting than just having the Marvel Universe turn into Day Of The Dead, just having a guy (or gal) who was Marvel Fan getting revenge on the heroes they loved by getting their powers |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jun 10, 2024 17:18:06 GMT -5
I borrowed A Contract With God by Will Eisner from the library and read it for the first time. It was an interesting read, especially the local color aspects, but I didn't feel reverence towards it. It was darker than I expected, although I didn't know what to expect. I guess I anticipated there would be more love for the community rather than portraying most significant characters negatively. There's a lot of awful "ordinary people" in these stories. I also didn't realize it would be a quick read. So many pages were one panel, to the extent an image without a frame is a panel. Eisner's lettering also was a big element, which is interesting as I had just finished reading some comics by Jim Aparo who also frequently lettered comics that he drew. Of the four stories, the title story was probably my least favorite. The central idea of the contract didn't make sense to me, because you need a meeting of the minds. Like at least give me a scene where Frimme Hersh imagines God giving him a sign of acceptance. It's hard to get invested without knowing why he thinks the contract exists. The Street Singer is very bleak, but I find the human stories and the ironic plot twists intriguing. The Super is emotive and tragic, but Eisner used a really conceit to push his story. It reminds me of Gone With The Wind. Lots of people think of it as a brilliant film, but to me a movie that traffics in so much Lost Cause dishonesty is fatally flawed. The Super's portrayal of a young child a seductress is fairly loathsome and reflective of the excuses predators make for their behaviors. Cookalein is interesting for the local color and how different stories are weaved together. But one of the subplots reminded me of the theory that Dinah being tortured in The Longbow Hunters reflecting Grell punishing her for (I think maybe it was for not wanting to have children IIRC). On the one hand, it should be fair game to explore how people can date people who turn out to be jerks for superficial reasons and realize it later. On the hand, I think after just having read The Super, the comeuppance part of a particular subplot in The Cookalein felt misogynistic. Personally, I like A Contract with God a whole lot, but I accept most of your points, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. The exception to that would be your criticism of "The Super" in as much as your having found its "portrayal of a young child as a seductress ... fairly loathsome". I instead see it as something of a cautionary tale. The superintendent is a disliked man of low character and paedophile tendencies, who is nonetheless the victim of a wickedly conniving little girl. The moral being that wickedness comes in many guises, some of them deceptively innocent looking. Yet the residents of the Dropsie Avenue tenement are only too happy to believe the worst in the person they loathe so much. Anyway, here are my thoughts from the last time I re-read it, in case you're interested... classiccomics.org/post/492972/thread |
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Post by spoon on Jun 10, 2024 17:28:15 GMT -5
I borrowed A Contract With God by Will Eisner from the library and read it for the first time. It was an interesting read, especially the local color aspects, but I didn't feel reverence towards it. It was darker than I expected, although I didn't know what to expect. I guess I anticipated there would be more love for the community rather than portraying most significant characters negatively. There's a lot of awful "ordinary people" in these stories. I also didn't realize it would be a quick read. So many pages were one panel, to the extent an image without a frame is a panel. Eisner's lettering also was a big element, which is interesting as I had just finished reading some comics by Jim Aparo who also frequently lettered comics that he drew. Of the four stories, the title story was probably my least favorite. The central idea of the contract didn't make sense to me, because you need a meeting of the minds. Like at least give me a scene where Frimme Hersh imagines God giving him a sign of acceptance. It's hard to get invested without knowing why he thinks the contract exists. The Street Singer is very bleak, but I find the human stories and the ironic plot twists intriguing. The Super is emotive and tragic, but Eisner used a really conceit to push his story. It reminds me of Gone With The Wind. Lots of people think of it as a brilliant film, but to me a movie that traffics in so much Lost Cause dishonesty is fatally flawed. The Super's portrayal of a young child a seductress is fairly loathsome and reflective of the excuses predators make for their behaviors. Cookalein is interesting for the local color and how different stories are weaved together. But one of the subplots reminded me of the theory that Dinah being tortured in The Longbow Hunters reflecting Grell punishing her for (I think maybe it was for not wanting to have children IIRC). On the one hand, it should be fair game to explore how people can date people who turn out to be jerks for superficial reasons and realize it later. On the hand, I think after just having read The Super, the comeuppance part of a particular subplot in The Cookalein felt misogynistic. Just wondering if you knew that the title story in A Contract With God is semi-autobiographical? The setting is based on the tenement housing that Eisner grew up in as a child and young man, but Eisner wrote the plot as a cathartic expression of his own anger and questioning of God after the loss of his 16-yr. old daughter.
The last story, Cookalein is also autobiographical, and more directly so. Eisner even uses the names of actual family members.
Before I got the book from the library I had heard that A Contract With God was inspired by Eisner's daughter's death. The edition I read was from the 2000s and it reprinted Eisner's foreword/introductions from multiple editions. One or two touched upon his daughter's death, albeit briefly. With that starting point, the story surprised me. I expected a more sympathetic character that Frimme Hersh turned out to be. Acting like a self-centered dirtbag seems a poor way to memorialize someone you love. Semi-autobiographical seems very loose here, because from what I read Eisner was much more on the secular end of the spectrum rather than observant, he wasn't living in tenements when his daughter died, etc. But when you write about catharsis, I guess the way in which it would sort of make sense is for Frimme's corruption to be a release of anger on paper of what he hopefully wouldn't find acceptable in real life. Yes, I read about Cookalein being partially autobiographical. That one had more resonance, because it felt like a slice of real life. I read that Willie's story (the kid who slept in the barn) were drawn from Will Eisner's own experiences. He's essentially a Will Eisner stand-in. |
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Post by spoon on Jun 10, 2024 19:50:47 GMT -5
I borrowed A Contract With God by Will Eisner from the library and read it for the first time. It was an interesting read, especially the local color aspects, but I didn't feel reverence towards it. It was darker than I expected, although I didn't know what to expect. I guess I anticipated there would be more love for the community rather than portraying most significant characters negatively. There's a lot of awful "ordinary people" in these stories. I also didn't realize it would be a quick read. So many pages were one panel, to the extent an image without a frame is a panel. Eisner's lettering also was a big element, which is interesting as I had just finished reading some comics by Jim Aparo who also frequently lettered comics that he drew. Of the four stories, the title story was probably my least favorite. The central idea of the contract didn't make sense to me, because you need a meeting of the minds. Like at least give me a scene where Frimme Hersh imagines God giving him a sign of acceptance. It's hard to get invested without knowing why he thinks the contract exists. The Street Singer is very bleak, but I find the human stories and the ironic plot twists intriguing. The Super is emotive and tragic, but Eisner used a really conceit to push his story. It reminds me of Gone With The Wind. Lots of people think of it as a brilliant film, but to me a movie that traffics in so much Lost Cause dishonesty is fatally flawed. The Super's portrayal of a young child a seductress is fairly loathsome and reflective of the excuses predators make for their behaviors. Cookalein is interesting for the local color and how different stories are weaved together. But one of the subplots reminded me of the theory that Dinah being tortured in The Longbow Hunters reflecting Grell punishing her for (I think maybe it was for not wanting to have children IIRC). On the one hand, it should be fair game to explore how people can date people who turn out to be jerks for superficial reasons and realize it later. On the hand, I think after just having read The Super, the comeuppance part of a particular subplot in The Cookalein felt misogynistic. Personally, I like A Contract with God a whole lot, but I accept most of your points, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. The exception to that would be your criticism of "The Super" in as much as your having found its "portrayal of a young child as a seductress ... fairly loathsome". I instead see it as something of a cautionary tale. The superintendent is a disliked man of low character and paedophile tendencies, who is nonetheless the victim of a wickedly conniving little girl. The moral being that wickedness comes in many guises, some of them deceptively innocent looking. Yet the residents of the Dropsie Avenue tenement are only too happy to believe the worst in the person they loathe so much. Anyway, here are my thoughts from the last time I re-read it, in case you're interested... classiccomics.org/post/492972/threadThanks for linking to your prior post. I think the idea of "The Super" as a cautionary tale is shaky. I've already returned the book to the library, so I can't double-check the specifics. My recollection is that although Scuggs is portrayed as a scary jerk, he's portrayed as a lonely guy with pin-ups of presumably adult women on his wall. So a child, portrayed as seductress, preys upon that. I don't think the girl is a reflection of reality. Rather, she's a strawman of the type that pedophiles (or folks who try to romanticize it in cases that get media attention) portray their victims. They project a sophistication, a manipulativeness, and an ability to consent on children that isn't a realistic understanding of children's psychological development. It's the lie of a willing partner or a kid somehow leading an adult on. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 10, 2024 23:36:36 GMT -5
"The Super" was almost certainly inspired by The Bad Seed, a novel that became a hit Broadway drama and, later, a film abut a psychopathic little girl who commits--and gets away with--a series of murders. One of her victims is her apartment building's super. I suspect Eisner added the sexual angle to make his story edgier without considering the implications spoon is inferring. Not a defense, just an observation.
Cei-U!
I summon the creepy kiddo!
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Jun 11, 2024 7:53:42 GMT -5
"The Super" was almost certainly inspired by The Bad Seed, a novel that became a hit Broadway drama and, later, a film abut a psychopathic little girl who commits--and gets away with--a series of murders. One of her victims is her apartment building's super. I suspect Eisner added the sexual angle to make his story edgier without considering the implications spoon is inferring. Not a defense, just an observation. Cei-U! I summon the creepy kiddo! That's fascinating, Kurt. Thanks for sharing. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 11, 2024 7:57:46 GMT -5
And what spoon describes was also an element in Lolita.
Contract with God was revelatory when it came out. This kind of "slice of life" graphic novel had not been seen by mainstream readers in America. It started a trend that continues today and it's impact can't be understated. It was also quite a change for Eisner, and rather brave to do this so late in his career.
As he progressed in this second career as a graphic novelist of ordinary people, his skills became much better tuned. I read it again recently, from the Artist Edition printed from original art. And I still find it a riveting work. But I also remember my initial exposure to it. But I wouldn't know how it seems after the decades of graphic work in the same genre that came after.
It's like people who encounter The Watchman now, after the whole industry took it's cues from that book. It would not be as groundbreaking to them.
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Post by spoon on Jun 11, 2024 17:12:30 GMT -5
And what spoon describes was also an element in Lolita. The novel or the movie? I confess I've only seen the movie. I've read a critique of the movie that claimed Nabokov's novel gave indications to the reader that Humbert Humbert was an unreliable narrator, which Kubrick didn't incorporate into his film. It's a key distinction whether an author is portraying a child as a seductress or portraying that as actually a rationalization constructed in the mind of the adult. But as I said, I'm getting this information about the novel secondhand. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 11, 2024 19:16:16 GMT -5
The movie. Never read the book.
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Post by berkley on Jun 11, 2024 20:22:17 GMT -5
I'm a huge fan of Kubrick's films and a pretty big admirer of Nabokov's writing but for the reasons stated have up to now avoided Lolita, film and novel both, and will probably continue to do so.
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Post by commond on Jun 12, 2024 5:13:02 GMT -5
I'm a huge fan of Kubrick's films and a pretty big admirer of Nabokov's writing but for the reasons stated have up to now avoided Lolita, film and novel both, and will probably continue to do so. I don't know about the film, but the novel is one of the greatest works of literature ever written. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jun 13, 2024 11:59:57 GMT -5
Lolita (the novel) is a beautifully written examination of obsession and manipulation within an abusive relationship. It absolutely does deserve its reputation as something of a masterpiece, but it's not for the faint-hearted.
It's particularly challenging from a reader's perspective in how it manipulates you into at first empathising with the monster that is Humbert Humbert and almost seeing him as a victim of his own desires, before you eventually realise that he is indeed a disgusting individual. The thing is though, if you've ever been infatuated with someone or fallen helplessly in love, you absolutely will see elements of yourself in Humbert, even while you're simultaneously appalled and disgusted at his overall conduct. It's also a pretty sharp take on how stupid and vain middle-aged men can be and also how manipulative pre-pubescent children can be if they put their mind to it.
It's a clever book, full of beautiful prose, but yeah, as I say...it's not for the faint-hearted.
That goes doubley for Anaïs Nin's erotic fiction.
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Post by tartanphantom on Jun 13, 2024 13:28:48 GMT -5
Lolita (the novel) is a beautifully written examination of obsession and manipulation within an abusive relationship. It absolutely does deserve its reputation as something of a masterpiece, but it's not for the faint-hearted. It's particularly challenging from a reader's perspective in how it manipulates you into at first empathising with the monster that is Humbert Humbert and almost seeing him as a victim of his own desires, before you eventually realise that he is indeed a disgusting individual. The thing is though, if you've ever ever been infatuated with someone or fallen helplessly in love, you absolutely will see elements of yourself in Humbert, even while you're simultaneously appalled and disgusted at his overall conduct. It's also a pretty sharp take on how stupid and vain middle-aged men can be and also how manipulative pre-pubescent children can be if they put their mind to it. It's a clever book, full of beautiful prose, but yeah, as I say...it's not for the faint-hearted. That goes doubley for Anaïs Nin's erotic fiction.
Great summary.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 13, 2024 19:41:52 GMT -5
I remembered I never finished up my Supergirl Silver age Onmibus, so I read 1/2 of what I have left, which I'm sure Hoosier must call the 'Lena Luthor saga'. Great silver age craziness!!
I was disappointed in Dick Malverne though... that cad! And he doesn't seem to be in the picture for a while... did someone realize leaning Supergirl towards a romance comic was no good? Or does that pick back up again (the last few stories seem to bring the Superhorse back)
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