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Post by wildfire2099 on May 6, 2016 12:27:34 GMT -5
I thought the Warren-Wanda thing WAS mentioned in a 60s X-Men comic... they just expanded on it in First Class? I always assumed the Wanda-Hawkeye thing was just one more layer on the Hawkeye is jealous of Cap thing they had going really through the 90s.
Also, you left off the somewhat creepy relationship she had with Wonder Man during Busiek's run, where they repeatedly said stuff like 'You have the same brain as my ex-husband'... I also seem to recall an implied relationship sometime in the past with Tony Stark during Force Works, but it was not all that solid and could have just been referring to their shared past with the Avengers.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 6, 2016 12:44:19 GMT -5
I've read almost every Silver Age appearance of both Warren and Wanda, and I don't remember ever seeing any indication of a romantic interest on Wanda's part, and very little on Warren's part beyond something like: "Va va VOOM! If she's an Evil Mutant, get me a registration form!"
Same for Wanda and Hawkeye.
But something in the way of a panel or dialogue (from the 1960s!) proving me wrong would be very convincing.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on May 6, 2016 14:23:43 GMT -5
Same for Wanda and Hawkeye. Hawkeye made a move on Wanda right at the tail end of the Roy Thomas era - maybe even the first couple of issues of the Englehart run. Somewhere in the era where he was wearing that horrible blue skirt. That's when he discovered she was in love with Vision, which was a new plot development at the time:
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Post by Hoosier X on May 6, 2016 16:01:26 GMT -5
Same for Wanda and Hawkeye. Hawkeye made a move on Wanda right at the tail end of the Roy Thomas era - maybe even the first couple of issues of the Englehart run. Somewhere in the era where he was wearing that horrible blue skirt. That's when he discovered she was in love with Vision, which was a new plot development at the time: This is in the Avengers gap, the issues between #98 and #120, where I've only read a few of them, so I haven't seen this. Hawkeye didn't wear the costume until the 1970s (I'm not sure I've ever read a whole issue with this peculiar costume). So the Silver Age was over at this point.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 6, 2016 17:56:30 GMT -5
There's also this scene from Avengers #90 foreshadowing his feelings for Wanda.
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Post by Farrar on May 6, 2016 18:55:22 GMT -5
I thought the Warren-Wanda thing WAS mentioned in a 60s X-Men comic... they just expanded on it in First Class? I've read almost every Silver Age appearance of both Warren and Wanda, and I don't remember ever seeing any indication of a romantic interest on Wanda's part, and very little on Warren's part beyond something like: "Va va VOOM! If she's an Evil Mutant, get me a registration form!" That's exactly right, Hoozh. Warren thought that about Wanda when he first saw her in X-Men #4; there was also an issue where he said something about not forcibly disabling Magneto's aircraft because the Scarlet Witch was on it. But that was it. There was no romance, no thought bubbles, or anything else about any attraction. The First Class stuff was all created/inserted much, much later. The First Class books also makes it seem like Wanda and Jean became bffs, but in the actual X-Men books at the time Jean seemed a bit jealous of Wanda--"She's much too attractive!" and "Oh no! The way she's looking at him [Scott]..." I personally don't consider the First Class stuff "in continuity" or canon (and I don't really know if they're meant to be), but it's a fun series and I always enjoy reading about my favorite characters such as Wanda and Pietro.
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Post by Farrar on May 6, 2016 19:07:10 GMT -5
Also, you left off the somewhat creepy relationship she had with Wonder Man during Busiek's run, where they repeatedly said stuff like 'You have the same brain as my ex-husband'... I also seem to recall an implied relationship sometime in the past with Tony Stark during Force Works, but it was not all that solid and could have just been referring to their shared past with the Avengers. Right, I didn't want to stray too far afield form the time of the Silver Age Tales of Suspense story The Captain reviewed, so as I noted in my post I only concentrated on the Silver Age-very early Bronze Age stuff, to illustrate Wanda's crushes. Wonder Man came much, much later. I usually like him but I agree that relationship was problematic. Have you read the Vision Quest saga in Byrne's West Coast Avengers? Vision's disassembled and Simon moons over Wanda. Really creepy and inappropriate IMO.
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Post by Farrar on May 6, 2016 19:34:24 GMT -5
I've read almost every Silver Age appearance of both Warren and Wanda, and I don't remember ever seeing any indication of a romantic interest on Wanda's part, and very little on Warren's part beyond something like: "Va va VOOM! If she's an Evil Mutant, get me a registration form!" Same for Wanda and Hawkeye.But something in the way of a panel or dialogue (from the 1960s!) proving me wrong would be very convincing. Hawkeye had a crush on Wanda from the start of the Kooky Quartet days. Apart from frequently addressing her as "beautiful" and "gorgeous", he was jealous of her attraction to Cap. These are from Avengers #25 (1966): A few issues later the Black Widow re-entered Hawkeye's life and the Wanda crush was forgotten--that is, until years later, when Roy Thomas resurrected it in 1971's Avengers #90 (as in the panel in Crimebuster's post, Clint thinking about BW and SW). That's why Hawkeye's line in #102 (shown in CB's other post) "You know I've always dug you..." resonated to an old-time reader like me; Thomas (as usual) was making use of the characters' background.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 6, 2016 21:20:44 GMT -5
Yes, I remember that, Farrar. Perhaps I overstated it by saying it was the same as Warren and Wanda. (My favorite era for the Avengers is the "Cap's Kooky Quartet" era up to about issue #50. My favorite thing is trying to figure out what's up with Wanda's deus ex machine powers where she's just as likely to knock over a vase as save the day with a well-placed hex that shorts out the whole mechanism of the villain's primary devilish contraption. Even Wanda has no idea what's going to happen. (And I prefer her with black hair.))
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Post by The Captain on May 7, 2016 10:24:33 GMT -5
How cool is it that one comment I made in a review generated this long discussion about the Scarlet Witch's romantic interests, complete with page scans and analysis? This is an awesome community and I'm so glad to be part of it.
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Post by The Captain on May 7, 2016 11:18:07 GMT -5
Tales of Suspense #73"Where Walks The Sleeper!" Writer: Stan Lee Art: Jack Kirby (Layouts) and George Tuska (Pencils and Inks) Cover Date: January 1966 SynopsisCaptain America watches with concern as the recently-awakened first Sleeper, one of the decades-hidden weapons of the Red Skull, marches forward to rendezvous with the other two of its kind. Realizing he could not physically stop the giant robot himself, Cap sends his shield flying toward a large boulder, which is dislodged and falls onto the Sleeper. Unfortunately, the rock only briefly slowed the Sleeper, which continues on its way after freeing itself from the rubble with Cap in pursuit on a discarded motorcycle he finds nearby. The scene shifts to Frau Erica Wolfmann, the second of the Red Skull's agents responsible for releasing a Sleeper. Her team of diggers has excavated a large hole containing a metallic blue shell. One of the men strikes the top of the metal device with his shovel, causing an earth-shaking explosion followed by the emergence of the second Sleeper, which has the appearance of a red manta ray. Cap races across a log extending over a chasm, wondering if the explosion he just heard was the second Sleeper awakening. The log beneath him snapped as he pondered that question, forcing him to leap to the other side of the gap as his motorcycle crashes into the ravine below. Pulling himself up, he spies the newly-freed Sleeper flying over the countryside, and as he enters a nearby village, Cap is almost blown over in its wake. Cap maneuvers himself into a position to be able to leap onto the top of the flying vessel in time to witness it glide above the first Sleeper and attach itself magnetically to the other robot's back. Elsewhere in Germany, a man enters a pawn shop to retrieve an item left there long ago. The shopkeeper calls out the man as being a Nazi but still retrieves the item, which is a metal box with a key on top of it; for his trouble, the shopkeeper is shot by the Nazi agent, who then heads out into the street. He heads to the town center, where he begins to turn the key on the box, intent on awakening the third and final Sleeper. As the issues wraps, Cap is still on top of the combination of the first two Sleepers, where he has to block bullets fired by NATO planes. He dives from his perch when a missile approaches, and as the rocket misses its target, Cap wonders if anything can stop the Sleeper... Continuity IssuesIn the first panel showing Frau Wolfmann's digging team, there are two men in the hole, but in the second panel, there are three. The one who strikes the device to awaken the Sleeper is the one that is not in the first panel. While sloppy, this isn't definitively an error, as it could be reasonably argued that the man was kneeling or bent over at the time of the first panel. The first Sleeper is colored brown in issue #72, but it is colored purple in this one. My ThoughtsAnother great installment of the Sleeper saga. The story flows very well, with Stan, Jack, and George making great use of the 10-page format, not wasting any panels and keeping the action moving crisply. My favorite panels in this issue were in the pawnshop, when the shopkeeper calls out the Red Skull's agent for being a Nazi. When the agent mentions the Red Skull, the shopkeeper tells him not to speak that name there, and just to add validity to his feelings, the Skull's agent shoots him as he goes to carry out the awakening of the third Sleeper. It's taking actual history and bringing it to life in a comic book, giving the next generation a very real glimpse into how strongly the Nazis affected the entire world, particularly those in Germany who did not agree with Hitler's plans or actions. My Grade: A The first ongoing storyline for Captain America in the modern era continues with Cap fighting against not one but two seemingly unstoppable foes, aware that a third is on the way.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 7, 2016 12:07:12 GMT -5
That pawnshop scene is great.. I agree 100% with you on that! I love that comics used to deal with that sort of thing... far better, IMO, that all the meta BS that goes on today.
I also remember really liking that Iron Man story on the cover against evil Black Knight.. I think this is one I have the actual comic for.
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simayl
Junior Member
Imagination is more powerful than CGI
Posts: 46
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Post by simayl on May 7, 2016 12:27:16 GMT -5
How cool is it that one comment I made in a review generated this long discussion about the Scarlet Witch's romantic interests, complete with page scans and analysis? This is an awesome community and I'm so glad to be part of it. I totally agree!
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2016 16:07:42 GMT -5
That pawnshop scene is great.. I agree 100% with you on that! I love that comics used to deal with that sort of thing... far better, IMO, that all the meta BS that goes on today. I also remember really liking that Iron Man story on the cover against evil Black Knight.. I think this is one I have the actual comic for. I don't mind a little meta-commentary from a good writer who actually has something at least a little bit clever to say. But I haven't read something like that in a long time. It's usually pretty annoying, and reads like it was written by people who've never read a comic published before 1985 for readers who've never read a comic published before 1985. That gibberish in Aquaman #1 where Aquaman got all in a snit because people have misconceptions about him or think his powers are lame. That was so badly done. I think you could write a good comic about DC Universe misconceptions about Aquaman, but they wouldn't be exactly the same as Family Guy jokes, and it made no sense for Aquaman to get all bent out of shape about it. That was not nearly as clever as the writer thought it was.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 16:24:48 GMT -5
That pawnshop scene is great.. I agree 100% with you on that! I love that comics used to deal with that sort of thing... far better, IMO, that all the meta BS that goes on today. I also remember really liking that Iron Man story on the cover against evil Black Knight.. I think this is one I have the actual comic for. I don't mind a little meta-commentary from a good writer who actually has something at least a little bit clever to say. But I haven't read something like that in a long time. It's usually pretty annoying, and reads like it was written by people who've never read a comic published before 1985 for readers who've never read a comic published before 1985. That gibberish in Aquaman #1 where Aquaman got all in a snit because people have misconceptions about him or think his powers are lame. That was so badly done. I think you could write a good comic about DC Universe misconceptions about Aquaman, but they wouldn't be exactly the same as Family Guy jokes, and it made no sense for Aquaman to get all bent out of shape about it. That was not nearly as clever as the writer thought it was. Except all I heard in shops in the area for 6-8 months was how great that sequence was and how everyone loved it, and that was the reason they were buying Aquaman when they never had before. So despite you not liking it and thinking it poorly done, it was extremely well-received among current fandom and generated a lot of buzz and interest in the book which translated to sales early on. Sales didn't last, mostly because Johns left and the art team went to another book, but that bit worked for current audiences, and yeah maybe they never bought comics before 1985, but that is the target audience for comics now. That is the bulk of the 100K or so consumers in the American market who may or might decide to buy a currently published comic book. Humor and wit aimed towards a demograhic that is not the primary potential audience may be more satisfying to you, but not what will work in the current marketplace. Dreadful as it is, the current market is all that is left to the big 2, so that's the tune they have to play. Going back towards the old ways won't regain them the old market, it will only lose them the current market. Back on topic sort of...I love these stories that the Captain is reviewing, but they would not be well received by today's audience. Those among the current audience who are seeking out these books in back issues usually aren't doing so because they want to read the stories, but because of first appearances or events that "matter" which is the current buzzword for comic sales. IT's why key issues keep rising and the rest can be had on the cheap-even if they are part of the same story. The current generation of writers grew up mostly in the late Bronze Age or later. They write what they know. Many have gone back and read the Silver Age stuff, but they weren't experiencing it as it came out. What they have to say about that stuff, which makes up that meta-commentary you are speaking of, has more to do with how and when they encountered the material and what had shaped their perceptions of it than the actual material itself, so the kind of commentary a Geoff Johns will make is going to be different than that a Steve Gerber or even a Mark Waid would make (or would have made). Time marches on and what worked when we were the target demographic doesn't work for today's target demographic. For today's audience, stuff like the Aquaman commentary/jokes is witty, fresh and insightful because it reflects their own experience of the stuff, we don't appreciate it as much because it doesn't reflect our experiences back before we yelled at people to get off our lawns. Similarly, we may look back, go back and read, and appreciate Golden Age material, but our experience of it is different than those who experienced it as it came out, so commnetary we make on it wouldn't resonate with their experiences as well. The caveat here is that the cultural shift between the Silver Age and now is much wider/larger than the shift between the Golden and Silver Age and so the divide of experience is even wider for today's audience and us than it was between those of us (not me Bronze Age baby here) who experienced the Silver and the current generation of fandom. Now back to some glorious Kirby era Cap and the Sleeper Saga... -M
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