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Post by String on Aug 27, 2021 10:57:41 GMT -5
I get the impression that, by only reading the comic and not any of the accompanying editorial/letters pages, I'm not getting the total experience of this saga.
Would that be fair to say?
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 28, 2021 12:27:45 GMT -5
I get the impression that, by only reading the comic and not any of the accompanying editorial/letters pages, I'm not getting the total experience of this saga. Would that be fair to say? You don’t have to read all of it. I read all of the notes for Going Home because it really adds to the Fitzgerald and Hemingway sections. But now that I’m into Latter Days I’m not reading very much of the editorial section or Dave’s essays. It gets rather repetitive. But you should read some of it to get a better idea of why many Cerebus readers are pretty sure that Dave is a committed misogynist. It’s apparently a lot more clear if you read the editorial sections and Dave’s responses to some of the letters instead of limiting yourself to the actual story content. I’m up to #279. I read the first few pages of #280 but I decided to take a break partly because I hit a wall of text but mostly because Dave’s Woody Allen caricature is pretty awful. I hope it gets better or the next few issues are going to be a CHORE!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 28, 2021 16:15:54 GMT -5
I get the impression that, by only reading the comic and not any of the accompanying editorial/letters pages, I'm not getting the total experience of this saga. Would that be fair to say? I would agree, but in the same way that just eating the cake and not hearing the chef curse and swear while he's making it is not a total cake experience. Dave is a brilliant comic creator, but his foray into literature criticism, religious exegesis or social commentary was not in the same league. As a reader I welcomed the opportunity to hear what he had to say, but disagreed on most points; his essays and diatribes came across as very opinionated, with little room for differing opinions.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 28, 2021 17:22:06 GMT -5
Yeah. Cerebus #280 is a CHORE to read. This goes on for quite a few issues. I’ll be very happy if I can get through one issue a day for a while.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 29, 2021 16:36:20 GMT -5
It is taking me all afternoon to read Cerebus #282.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 30, 2021 11:35:04 GMT -5
I’m up to #279. I read the first few pages of #280 but I decided to take a break partly because I hit a wall of text but mostly because Dave’s Woody Allen caricature is pretty awful. I hope it gets better or the next few issues are going to be a CHORE!
… supporting my prejudice that having non-Jews write explicitly Jewish characters is often a mistake.
(which isn't to say that no non-Jew ought to write a Jewish character at all, but that they ought to be very careful when they're explicitly dealing with Jewish religion or ethnic characteristics).
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 30, 2021 14:46:47 GMT -5
… supporting my prejudice that having non-Jews write explicitly Jewish characters is often a mistake.
(which isn't to say that no non-Jew ought to write a Jewish character at all, but that they ought to be very careful when they're explicitly dealing with Jewish religion or ethnic characteristics).
Sim translates YHVH as Yoohwhoo.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 31, 2021 11:32:11 GMT -5
Sim translates YHVH as Yoohwhoo.
Yes well there is a tradition within Judaism of a female aspect of God, but it's never presented in the clearly non-monotheistic manner in which Sim divides up Genesis. It's a very … individual, to put it charitably … perspective.
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Post by commond on Aug 31, 2021 17:55:35 GMT -5
You guys are reminding me why I never finished Cerebus despite it being one of my favorite comic book series ever.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 31, 2021 21:21:08 GMT -5
You guys are reminding me why I never finished Cerebus despite it being one of my favorite comic book series ever. LOL I read three or four pages of #284 last night and ... Remember that thread about comics that make you cry? Comics don’t make me cry. But I have come awfully close to crying while reading Chasing YHVH. And it’s not a good thing. I’m just about to give #284 another try.
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Post by String on Aug 31, 2021 21:51:59 GMT -5
I'm still making my way through Jaka's Story and I'm not sure how I feel about Pud Withers. In a way, I empathize with him, perhaps not an attractive, desirable partner nor mate and as Sims lays out in his intro for the volume, a fountain of sexual frustration that may spill over in disturbing ways.
Yet how Sims portrays Jaka's effects on both Pud and her husband Rick, I think, shows his view of traditional women, the expectations put upon them by others, and the subtle power they wield even if unknowingly. For example, how Jaka tempts Pud with lust and desire. She dresses up to dance every night and as Sims portrays her, quite lithe, graceful, and desirable. She does this knowing how it will enhance her dancing and her appeal to her customers which would hopefully translate into more money. Yet she seems completely oblivious to having the same effect on Pud. This drives his very disturbing inner monologues about confronting her and acting upon his pent-up frustrations. Until they get an actual customer who acts accordingly and Jaka is thrilled that things are gonna turn around now. When she repays Pud her tips and promises to repay him for all his expenditures in helping them, Pud breaks down and prays for forgiveness for his thoughts. The way Sims set up that scene, Pud crying, I dunno, I found it striking.
Then there's Rick. Jaka doesn't approve of his inaction and perceived laziness which hasn't helped them at all as a couple but also finds fault that Rick would help Oscar with his wants instead of helping her. Then comes the traditional argument, the standard view, as a woman, Jaka is only appreciated for her cooking, cleaning, and yes, even sex. It's wholly similar to previous statements made by Cerebus in the same vein, women stay home, cook, and have babies. It's portraying the classic trope and travails of a housewife while also showing her effects on men (unintentional or not) when she does a job to support herself and her husband (who's shown as the classic lazy oaf).
Again, I haven't read this portion of the saga in a quite some time so I don't know beforehand what is going to happen. I would think that Sims is doing this to somehow later compare and perhaps contrast with the effects that Cirin's matriarchy is having on Iestan society.
As for Oscar, I'm trying to keep an open mind. I know that he's featured more so in the next volume but so far, he seems to play haughtiness rather well. And no, I've never any of Wilde so I don't really have a basis to compare against with Sims' caricature here.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 31, 2021 23:19:07 GMT -5
I read so much Oscar Wilde at one point. I read a couple of biographies. I honestly don’t think Sim captured him very well.
But it’s a lot better than his Gertrude Stein or Woody Allen caricatures.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 31, 2021 23:22:31 GMT -5
I finished #284. It’s a chore.
But at the end, there’s a Jules Feiffer Woody Allen gag and a Robert Crumb Woody Allen image and they are both somewhat amusing.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 1, 2021 8:30:29 GMT -5
I just read #285 from start to finish in one sitting (not including the Why Canada Slept essay; just the Konigsberg and Cerebus interpreting the Torah part).
It took me an hour and forty-five minutes.
The art is really good. The Woody Allen character is hallucinating scenes from the films of Fellini and Bergman. It looks very nice. And Woody dressed as Giton the catamite from Fellini Satyricon made me laugh out loud.
I’ve seen Fellini Satyricon ten or twelve times over the decades.
Unfortunately it says pretty much nothing about the influence of Fellini and Bergman on Allen’s films.
Come on, Dave. Stardust Memories is hilarious even if you have never seen 8 1/2.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 1, 2021 11:38:04 GMT -5
I read so much Oscar Wilde at one point. I read a couple of biographies. I honestly don’t think Sim captured him very well. But it’s a lot better than his Gertrude Stein or Woody Allen caricatures.
You've read more than I have, but I thought this was a fair caricature of a certain side of Wilde's personality. It compares nicely with the later 'Melmoth,' about Wilde's death (although they are apparently different characters; I believe Estarcion has at least three, maybe four Oscar Wildes).
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