shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2021 21:30:05 GMT -5
[I love the first volume, and High Society, and even the first volume of Church and State, but by the second volume of C&S I felt it got bogged down in some metaphysical stuff I just couldn't parse... the differences in the religions, the nature of God, etc. Hence, I have never progressed beyond that volume. I haven't read them in a decade, now. Perhaps it's time to give the C&S volumes another chance and maybe continue through the series. Any pointers from longtime Cerebus readers? Absolutely! 1. Don't get bogged down in the details. They really don't matter. Sim contradicts everything he ever establishes in the series whenever it suits him. Actively working to keep track of what's going on will not enhance your enjoyment of the series at all. 2. Don't get too attached to any particular direction the series takes. Most folks drop off after High Society and Church & State because those two felt very much like the same series. Everything after really doesn't. Sometimes you spend a volume learning about Jakka, or watching Oscar Wilde die, or hanging out in a bar with characters who refuse to do anything, and sometimes Cerebus meets God. You never really know what you're going to get. I'd challenge you to read as far as Jakka's Story, as that's the volume that really tests whether the rest of Cerebus is for you or not. You absolutely WILL get bored and exasperated. But if, after you've put down the volume for a day or two, you find yourself missing it and you're not sure why, then you've caught the bug. Sim is such a powerful storyteller that even when the story seems unnecessary and poorly paced, even when his message is contradictory or even blatantly offensive, it's still brilliant and addictive. That's the best advice I can offer. It will never be as fun and easy to digest as High Society and Church & State again, but the artoistry grows far more impressive even while Sim's general direction gets more and more questionable.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 21:50:24 GMT -5
I actually just joined this forum so I'm a newcomer, but wanted to make my way over here quickly as I'm a fellow longtime Cerebus fan! I started reading it as a kid back when High Society was being published. I have the first 6 phone books (so I would need to pick up more to continue the journey with folks in this thread!), but High Society is still my favorite and I probably read it once a year. I had a great conversation at a comic book convention with Gerhard a few years back. He has to be one of the nicest people on the planet! He was very gentlemanly talking about his working relationship with Sim, but also in an open and candid way which I really appreciated. He asked me how far I made it through the whole series (Melmoth), and then I asked him which was his favorite storyline, and he said Jaka's Story. I picked up a High Society print from him he signed, and that's in a frame hanging in my front hallway in the picture below. He also had a wonderful print of a Winsor McCay homage he did of Nemo in Slumberland and I picked that up as well...he's an amazing artist!
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,415
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Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2021 22:45:24 GMT -5
I had a great conversation at a comic book convention with Gerhard a few years back. He has to be one of the nicest people on the planet! He was very gentlemanly talking about his working relationship with Sim, but also in an open and candid way which I really appreciated. That's incredibly cool, and I'm very envious of the signed print! Very curious, though: What did he say about his working relationship with Sim? Welcome to the forum. So glad to see you jumping right into things!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 8, 2021 5:53:01 GMT -5
I actually just joined this forum so I'm a newcomer, but wanted to make my way over here quickly as I'm a fellow longtime Cerebus fan! I started reading it as a kid back when High Society was being published. I have the first 6 phone books (so I would need to pick up more to continue the journey with folks in this thread!), but High Society is still my favorite and I probably read it once a year. I had a great conversation at a comic book convention with Gerhard a few years back. He has to be one of the nicest people on the planet! He was very gentlemanly talking about his working relationship with Sim, but also in an open and candid way which I really appreciated. He asked me how far I made it through the whole series (Melmoth), and then I asked him which was his favorite storyline, and he said Jaka's Story. I picked up a High Society print from him he signed, and that's in a frame hanging in my front hallway in the picture below. He also had a wonderful print of a Winsor McCay homage he did of Nemo in Slumberland and I picked that up as well...he's an amazing artist! Welcome supercat! I'm glad to hear about Gerhard... He's an amazing artist, but it's hard to find anything about him online, besides his Cerebus work. Not surprised he'd turn out to be a nice guy... That's how he came across when Sim talked about him in the editorial pages of the comic. That throne room, with its polished marble floors and the delicate way light came trough stained glass windows... That was truly magnificent artwork.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 6:25:08 GMT -5
I had a great conversation at a comic book convention with Gerhard a few years back. He has to be one of the nicest people on the planet! He was very gentlemanly talking about his working relationship with Sim, but also in an open and candid way which I really appreciated. That's incredibly cool, and I'm very envious of the signed print! Very curious, though: What did he say about his working relationship with Sim? Welcome to the forum. So glad to see you jumping right into things! Thanks shaxper! I may not be doing his exact words justice, but it was along the lines that it was simultaneously the most complicated but also most rewarding experience he ever had. I got the feeling it was quite the ride, but he had a pretty positive outlook on all the good stuff that went with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 6:32:05 GMT -5
Welcome supercat! I'm glad to hear about Gerhard... He's an amazing artist, but it's hard to find anything about him online, besides his Cerebus work. Not surprised he'd turn out to be a nice guy... That's how he came across when Sim talked about him in the editorial pages of the comic. That throne room, with its polished marble floors and the delicate way light came trough stained glass windows... That was truly magnificent artwork. Thanks for the welcome Roquefort Raider! And I agree, magnificent artwork indeed!
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Post by String on Jun 15, 2021 11:57:53 GMT -5
Fantastic print! Love that cover. Welcome aboard as well!
Well, I'm at the end of the campaign in High Society so a few thoughts along the way:
Gah! I keep forgetting about Katrina, Jaka's sister. She never appears again? So odd. What's worse since the Apocalypse beasts are still roaming, I would have to think that she is still entranced within that circle with Janette and Theresa. Wow.
I read the interlude piece "What Happened Between Twenty And Twenty-One" for the first time, interesting seeing how Cerebus got from Togith to Beduin. But the character of Strangis, does he appear again anywhere? Seems like a demented parody of Dr Strange.
If Sim doesn't like doing backgrounds then you can't get more basic than stark black as seen when Cerebus arrives at the Regency. You're forced to focus on the characters and dialogue. But I do like how Sim plays within that stark black background depending on what the characters are doing. A chair here, a door there, a bed, a fireplace. There's one particular shot I love, where Astoria is listening to Cerebus complain and she's leaning on the fireplace mantle with her left arm yet it's only her arm resting on the shadow outline of the mantle. Combined with her facial expression, it's quite effective in spite of it's starkness.
Bran Mac Muffin. He's re-introduced after what, 15+ issues? First, he was the leader of essentially barbarians living in underground tunnels and burrows. Now, he's well-dressed, manicured, resides at the Regency, quite the change. I find it interesting that he is brought back now for in essence, he seems to start and re-enforce this narrative. He was the one who first suggests Cerebus run for Prime Minister, he is the one who fosters and renews Cerebus' desire to win by laying out war plans and his belief in the Earth-Pig Born.
Because otherwise, I don't think Cerebus does any of this. Before this, Cerebus seems only interested in conquest, his leadership of the Conniptins and his alliance with Stromm Got of Thunder. Food, ale, gold seems his only goals. But he arrives in Iest to find himself the ranking diplomatic representative of Palnu which gives him food, ale, and gold aplenty. He seems content until he has to contend with being re-elected as such (Grand inquisition aside) It's only when Bran suggests that due to his preordained nature, he run for Prime Minister that he does so.
Along the way in the campaign, Sims builds up the underlying themes of theocracy vs democracy, free elections and their pitfalls yet I don't think Cerebus cares one whit about any of it. Astoria may want to overwrite the old system, Julius wants to maintain his lunatic bureaucracy but Cerebus is just along for the ride. He mentioned before all this of maybe trying to pick a side or cause to throw in with but I don't think this qualifies for him. Throughout the election, he's dumbfounded over the process and concessions needed to achieve this elusive post. Bran whispering in his ear that leads him to dreams of an Aardvarkian Empire seems to be the only cause that Cerebus is still finds wanting. His first reaction upon thinking he may lose the election is to declare a war against Julius and Palnu.
There are deeper issues at play here but Cerebus is heedless or mindless of them. He's just playing out a role in both Astoria's political ideals or Bran's visions of a new age of Earth-Pig supremacy.
Also, is this the beginning of Sims' exploration of male/female roles and models? Late on in the election, it's mentioned that Cerebus can gain votes if Astoria is basically kept out of any powerful political roles in Cerebus' cabinet. Women can't or shouldn't occupy positions of power and/or influence? (Also, the instance of Blakely being the one to determine if Cerebus is a worthy candidate for PM and dismisses Astoria outright).
Love the Eisner touches/homages in the Lower Iest scenes. Even with the stark black backgrounds, Sims' artistry continues to grow and mature here. Even his playing with the format is great from panel layouts to his written descriptions of the panels featuring Cerebus, Julius, and Elrod. And yes, it wasn't until I attended an actual comic convention that I now see how much (and how well) Petuniacon is based upon them.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 16, 2021 11:27:18 GMT -5
Also, is this the beginning of Sims' exploration of male/female roles and models? Late on in the election, it's mentioned that Cerebus can gain votes if Astoria is basically kept out of any powerful political roles in Cerebus' cabinet. Women can't or shouldn't occupy positions of power and/or influence? (Also, the instance of Blakely being the one to determine if Cerebus is a worthy candidate for PM and dismisses Astoria outright).
I don't think so, at least, not in a direct way. It's a comment about a sexist society but also Astoria's general tendency to antagonize the status quo; however, I don't think that during "High Society," Sim thought of gender issues in the same way he did later, or thought of Cerebus as a general contribution to the debate in the same way he did later.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,415
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Post by shaxper on Jun 22, 2021 21:58:33 GMT -5
Just curious if anyone is interested in catching up and reading Women along with me. I don't mind waiting a few weeks.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 22, 2021 22:36:48 GMT -5
It’s been a very long time since I read any Cerebus, but I have been thinking of reading Mothers and Daughters again. I read High Society and Church and State a bunch of times, but by the time of Mothers and Daughters, I was buying them and reading them as they came out, but I don’t think I’ve ever re-read anything after #150.
After about #240 or so, I started missing issues here and there. I think I’m missing about 10 to 15 issues from the last few years. I’ve been meaning to go through the Cerebus long box and make a list and see how expensive it would be to get all the issues I missed ... and then read them all from #201 to the end.
I did read the very last issue, by the way. The thing is ... I don’t really feel like I’m missing anything vital! I feel like I read a complete story! If I had felt like I was missing anything, I would have made an effort to get them back then,
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 22, 2021 22:42:13 GMT -5
It would be a few weeks before I would be able to start Mothers and Daughters. I’m trying to finish Spider-Man #40 to 150, and I’m up to #128. I want to finish that before I start anything else.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,415
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Post by shaxper on Jun 22, 2021 22:54:11 GMT -5
I did read the very last issue, by the way. The thing is ... I don’t really feel like I’m missing anything vital! I feel like I read a complete story! If I had felt like I was missing anything, I would have made an effort to get them back then, Plot definitely isn't one of Sim's greatest strengths. The storyline certainly meanders a ton, and so, if all you are looking for is plot, no; you didn't miss all that much. If you look at Cerebus as a character study, though, I'd argue Melmoth is the only skippable volume in the whole run, and that Going Home marks the climax of Cerebus' character arc, as well as the closest we'll ever come to understanding what Sim was really trying to teach us about men, women, fate, destiny, and ourselves; the final two volumes serving as falling action and resolution. But my strongest argument for the series as a whole has always been that it's about artistic merit more than anything else. Even the "bad" volumes are so rich in style and experimentation, I would never skip a one. But that's me. If you decide you're along for the ride, I definitely don't mind waiting. Last I checked, most back issues of Cerebus after the first twenty five issues are dollar bin fodder.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 22, 2021 23:07:39 GMT -5
I read all the volumes. I’m just missing a few issues here and there. I think I missed three issues in a row when it was F Scott, Ernest and Zelda, but otherwise it’s just a lone issue here and there. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.
OK! I hadn’t thought about that part with Zelda for years! I read a bio of her a few years ago and I read her novel Save Me the Waltz, and I’m now eager to read the Cerebus version of the Fitzgeralds again because I know a lot more about them now.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 23, 2021 5:43:26 GMT -5
Also, is this the beginning of Sims' exploration of male/female roles and models? Late on in the election, it's mentioned that Cerebus can gain votes if Astoria is basically kept out of any powerful political roles in Cerebus' cabinet. Women can't or shouldn't occupy positions of power and/or influence? (Also, the instance of Blakely being the one to determine if Cerebus is a worthy candidate for PM and dismisses Astoria outright).
I don't think so, at least, not in a direct way. It's a comment about a sexist society but also Astoria's general tendency to antagonize the status quo; however, I don't think that during "High Society," Sim thought of gender issues in the same way he did later, or thought of Cerebus as a general contribution to the debate in the same way he did later.
Fully agreed! Astoria is clearly one of the best politicians around, even if the mores of Estarcion's chauvinistic society keep her from having an actual position in the PM's cabinet.
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Post by String on Jun 23, 2021 13:57:18 GMT -5
Finished High Society so a few more thoughts upon conclusion:
First, why sideways? I could understand doing this for an issue or two but Sims does it for seven issues. Is there some underlying symbolism I'm missing here or was he simply expanding his horizons (so to speak since all the panels are rendered vertically) in using this particular format or something else entirely?
Second, I agree for the most part in that if you gonna start reading Cerebus, this volume should be first however, in doing so, you kinda undercut part of the joy of the reveal of who the invading army is here at the end. I read High Society first many years ago and so thought it was merely ironic that Cerebus apparently knew who the invaders were. Since reading Cerebus though, I tend now to laugh along with Cerebus when he learns the truth. The sad part? His initial plans for and with this army worked! They reached Iest! Oh what joyous irony!
Last, I have to touch upon the only weak spot I have with this volume, the sub-plot dealing with (to borrow the phrase) 'the dam duck sta'choo!' The more I think upon it, the more this plot seems superfluous overall. It seems to be brought up occasionally just to remind us how the church is still involved in affairs. But since the focus of this volume seems to be politics, campaigns, and the pitfalls of government, it seems incongruous to keep referencing this plot since it bears little impact upon the actual proceedings.
The way I understand it, whosoever holds the 'dam duck sta'choo!' can unite the Eastern & Western churches under one single Pontiff but only if the Church undertakes the Exodus Inward which happens when the Grand Inquistor is crushed underneath a crescent boulder thrown by Cootie. Since this happens fairly early in the volume, doesn't that mean Astoria was still directing Cootie on whom to take out? So Astoria was part of this plot by having the Grand Inquistor murdered?
So the McGrew brothers were pawns in this plot as well? Why else would they kidnap Cerebus? Cerebus learns something of this plot when he interrogates those priests he got drunk but Jaka's comments to him on the matter makes it seem far more serious than those priests let on. And how exactly did Cerebus acquire it (unknowingly) at the end? He mentions the package he received from 'that artist'. Which artist? The only one I remember is the artist from Cerebus who had the first Apocalypse beast, who had arrived at Pentuniacon to draw sketches for Elrod. The only package I remember Cerebus receiving was from Jaka but that was just his sword.
Still, a great volume. One of my favorite shots, the goodbye hug between Cerebus and the Elf, very touching. On to Church & State I!
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