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Post by josephwyatt88 on Oct 3, 2016 16:28:23 GMT -5
Good to see discussion happening again, Shax! I'm afraid that being unemployed waiting for a work visa to come through has left me with a heck of a lot of time on my hands so I'm very, very ahead of schedule (currently a few issues into Going Home) so I won't be commenting as I read like I was before. I'll have a flip back through Jaka's Story to refresh my memory on it and share my thoughts, though what I remember very clearly is that I enjoyed the change of pace and, while Sim's use of prose pages grow incredibly overbearing (and increasingly inconsequential and skippable - looking at you here especially, Minds & Rick's Story), they're kept to a minimum here and are actually quite a pleasant read (especially when you realise that the flowery, overwritten nature of the prose is deliberate).
Also, art steps up a notch. More later, I'll gather my thoughts and get some uploads together of my favourite pages.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 3, 2016 19:58:32 GMT -5
Good to see discussion happening again, Shax! Nothing gets me moving more effectively than a deadline, I'm afraid. Sorry to hear this, my friend. Best of luck. WOW. Do keep in mind that the pace was created for the convenience of all participants. We can step up the pace if all involved agree with doing so. Looking forward to your other thoughts on the volume, Joseph!
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Oct 23, 2016 17:05:12 GMT -5
Bollocks, I had planned on commenting sooner but I've let stuff catch up on me a bit. So anyway, general thoughts on the volume: It's a very, very welcome change of pace and downscaling after Church & State II got a little too self consciously epic for its own good and wasn't quite tightly written enough to really pull that off - I think I liked it a lot more than you seemed to, Shax, and I stand by a lot of the gushing I did back when I finished it, I think a lot of the ideas explored in it were fascinating and the art and experiments were off the scale, but you're right - Sim was winging it a lot of the time. I doubt even he knows what the Ascension was about. So, scaling the story down to a little character piece with five central characters was a very smart idea. Jaka is one of Sim's best characters. Rick is wonderfully hapless and oblivious (Cerebus: "Listen, kid, Cerebus is in love with your wife." - and Rick STILL doesn't get it!") One of my favourite parts is the scene early on where Jaka communicates how peeved she is at him entirely through sound-effects, showing off Sim's wonderful way with onomatopoeia as she charges round the house doing her normal chores while quivering with rage. Oscar is an entertaining, warts-and-all portrayal of a writer that Sim obviously has a lot of affection for. I really liked the twist with regards to the prose in the "reads" sections - they seem excessively flowery and overwritten and it's obnoxious as hell until we found out we're reading pages from Oscar's book, and the purple prose is not a flaw in Sim's writing but a commentary on the way people like Oscar write. That was fun. Pud is fascinating. I especially love the way Pud basically goes through an entire character arc just from us watching his thought processes - we know he's lonely and miserable and has built up an idealised fantasy version of Jaka in his head, and everything indicates that he's about to take out that misery by forcing Jaka to do something awful, then he redeems himself by realising what he's contemplating and severely beating himself up over it. So the book all unfolds as something of a soap opera, with the undercurrent of anxiety over Cerebus hiding out from the Cirinists. Some of Sim's best dialogue comes from the conversations in this book - Cerebus apologizing to Jaka, Cerebus passive-aggressively battling an oblivious Rick, Oscar and Pud's debate over the word "somdomite". I love the way these characters interact, the way relationships develop around them all. And then things take a swerve when the Cirinists arrive and it basically turns into a horror story, and we get a cartoonishly evil parody of Margaret Thatcher as the book's main antagonist. I have mixed feelings on the Mrs. Thatcher character - she's a VEDDY thinly veiled swipe at a politician Sim had obviously no love for, and if it were any other writer I'd simply chalk that down to how divisive she was (and there were plenty of valid reasons to hate Margaret Thatcher), thought because I'm aware of Sim's thoughts on female authority figures (see his rant about Hillary Clinton in the letters page of Going Home), I can't help but feel there might be a vein of misogynistic anger at a woman being in power exacerbating things there. However, if you take the character at face value she's an entertainingly loathsome beast that thrives on Sim's skills with lettering. Just look at this dialogue: Every emphasized word is positively dripping with malice. She's terrifying, and the fact that she's torturing a character I care about makes it even worse. It's almost a shame that she never really receives any retribution, unless you count her humiliation in Guys. The ending with Rick is powerful. The payoff to Rick being such a bumbling idiot throughout the book is that it makes things that much more shocking when he loses it in grief and anger. Very well done on Sim's part. I have my misgivings. I have never loved the prose sections in this series, and while Jaka's Story has easily the most tolerable amount I still find them a little tedious. The insight we get into Jaka's history is appreciated and the payoff to the story about the Nurse is well executed so obviously they add value to the story but that doesn't mean I enjoy reading them. I also don't think I understand what it was that Julius did to Jaka in the final "read" to humiliate her so - was that a reference to something we'd heard about before? Is it expanded upon in the phonebook version? Reading the issues, at first she's getting dolled up and ready to be the belle-of-the-ball and then the next thing we see she's fleeing and crying. Something to do with Astoria, I imagine? Anyway, overall, it's tighter and overall better written than Church & State II. I don't know if I like it better than Church & State I or High Society, but it's definitely one of the better books I think. The art is also as fabulous as ever. I mean, just look at this: That's a wonderful image. Everything from the finer details (the way the liquid curls over at the edges, the way the ripples distort the reflection, the expression on Pud's face and the sinister edge the distortion gives to it) to the overall composition of it... Dammit, I even love the way the placement of the dialogue. It's both the smallest part and the most significant thing about the page. Seriously, I think Sim's a talented writer but his skill with a pencil might be my favourite thing about him.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 24, 2016 8:20:26 GMT -5
What was the point of the ascension, I wonder? Everyone is trying to be the first to make it to the moon, believing that it is an event of great importance; some hope to get power, some hope to get knowledge, some (Cerebus) just wants to be able to say "I beat you to it, losers". All turn out to have been wrong in their expectations, since the ascension apparently gives one little more than an opportunity to chat with The Judge (or Belinus two-tongues, depending on who you believe). And said judge reveals little of interest : the universe appeared, mankind appeared on Earth, and in the near future will destroy itself. Not that this os trivial, but it is nothing that we, readers, dodn't already know. As for the characters, what would they do with such information? Cirin would have said it was all a lie, Weisshaupt would have been mildly nterested and concluded there was nothing useful for him in there, and Cerebus just din't pay attention. What was the point of orchestrating the ascension? I ask, because it was not a random event; it was something prepared in advance by hidden forces, something involving magic (for lack of a better word). Somebody went through a lot of effort to allow such a meeting to happen, but it is a meeting with no consequence. That's one of the major things that's been bugging me about the series. Later events make the ascension suspect (not to spoiler too much) but then .. what WAS the point?
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Post by shaxper on Nov 20, 2016 17:00:23 GMT -5
Initial thoughts on Jaka's Story The introduction really sets the tone for my fascination with this piece. While Sim discusses the genesis of the idea for this volume, as well as the plight of the bread-winning female, he makes two comments that seem to fly in direct contrast to the sympathetic tone this volume takes towards a female protagonist formerly utilized as nothing more than a two dimensional love interest and exterior conscience. The first is Sim's incredibly upsetting take on rape, rapists, and unattractive men: Wait...so all men have the "natural and organic" desire to rape women, only by tremendous willpower do we restrain ourselves from doing it, and Sim feels for the rapists and dedicates his work to them because they can't help being ugly and, therefore, unlikely to get laid? Holy sh*t, Dave. What the hell is wrong with you? Feeling sexual desire to the extent that it can almost drive you mad is worlds away from having the emotional ability to assault, restrain, hurt, and rape a person. Furthermore, let's be clear that rape is rarely ever an expression of sexual desire; it's an expression of power. Dude, get yourself some lingerie catalogs and spend a little quality time with your right hand. What is wrong with Sim that he thinks the impulse to rape is inherent to our gender and "natural and organic"?? I don't think I could ride in an elevator with this dude. Anyway, the second thing he states in the introduction that seems to be at odds with the tone of this volume is: And yet, the prologue makes it clear that Rick is lazy and narcissistic, living off of Jaka's tireless efforts while he wants applause for simply getting out of bed. Sure, he is good natured, but also comes across as every deadbeat boyfriend supported by a hard working girlfriend that I've ever known, only maybe a little more idealized. But this gets me thinking. Sure, on the one hand, Jaka's tragedy is that she fled an unfeeling tyrant who robbed her of her freedom to a gentle and kind-hearted man who unwittingly robs her of her freedom; the latter being all the more frustrating and tragic. BUT this is Jaka's story and is thus told from her perspective, depicting the events she deems important. Analyzing the situation carefully, Rick's only crime is sleeping late and not really understanding Jaka's anger at first. An upsetting, but forgivable sequence of blunders. Is Jaka simply not considering all the times he was thoughtful and sweet? Heck, this volume completely skips over any discussion of how they even met or why Jaka decided to live with him. Perhaps the problem is Jaka and the past that she carries with her even into a caring relationship? But, in the end, analyze as we might, one final thing Sim says in the introduction IS firmly accurate (and impressive) here: Yeah. It's life in all its brutal honestly. No easy conclusions to be made; much reflecting to be invited. Who is right, who is wrong, why do they do what they do, and how could the tragedy by the close have been averted? A deeply personal thing to me right now as, when I read this volume for the first time, I was newly married and determined that Rick was the villain I would never be. A decade and a half later, my wife has left me, her regard for me every bit the mirror of Jaka's reactions to Rick, and I'm left wondering if I've misread this book all along. Maybe Rick was never the true problem. As for the prologue (all that I've read beyond the introduction at this point), it's both powerful and labored. Sim and Gerhard continue to make beautiful art together: And Jaka's depiction as both everywoman tragic hero and everywoman cruel antagonist is bewildering and feels all too authentic, while the character of Rick, though far more muted, is just as unwilling to surrender easy answers about how we should feel towards him. And yet, even one chapter in, the whole thing feels so labored. Sim's dense prose, utterly dominating half the pages, is merciless. His writing is quite good but, whereas I often read novels for enjoyment, his paragraphs are generally driving home the same redundant point about how miserable Jaka's youth was, only offering new and cleverly worded examples. Worse yet, when you provide paragraphs of small, dense font next to huge, breath-taking artwork, it's REALLY hard to stay concentrated on the font. This volume was an exercise in pain and frustration to read the first time around, and I'm not confident it will feel any different now. Plus, I now have the added hindsight awareness that we'll ultimately discover most of this was manufactured by Sim's Oscar Wilde character and wasn't even based on truth -- this isn't actually Jaka's story, making pushing through seem even more thankless. I'm challenged by this volume and, like last time reading it, more personally invested in it than I was in the four that came before it, but also like the last time I read it, it's truly thankless and high-effort reading.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Nov 21, 2016 13:07:32 GMT -5
I am wondering whether Dave's comments about his perceptions of Pud and Rick were written before or after his apparent breakdown? Because I have seen many post-breakdown writing by him explicating his earlier work in terms which seems in complete opposition to the evident tone of the work. If these words were a later assessment, I'd take them with a grain of salt, as they may not actually reflect his intent when the book was written.
It is also possible that the pre- and post-breakdown Dave have the same views towards feminism and rape, but that the pre-breakdown Dave was so incredibly incompetant at communicating his views on gender through the work itself that he inadvertently convinced many people that he was a feminist.
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Post by shaxper on Nov 21, 2016 14:21:28 GMT -5
I am wondering whether Dave's comments about his perceptions of Pud and Rick were written before or after his apparent breakdown? Because I have seen many post-breakdown writing by him explicating his earlier work in terms which seems in complete opposition to the evident tone of the work. If these words were a later assessment, I'd take them with a grain of salt, as they may not actually reflect his intent when the book was written. The introduction was written immediately upon completing the volume, I believe. When did the breakdown occur? [/quote] Or, perhaps, he is misunderstanding his own work and the subconscious from which it is derived. Or he's enjoying being provocative and defying expectation.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 21, 2016 17:22:33 GMT -5
Or, perhaps, he is misunderstanding his own work and the subconscious from which it is derived. The dissonance between the Cerebus comic and the Cerebus text pages is such that I can't help but be sure this is the case.
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Post by shaxper on Nov 21, 2016 21:01:32 GMT -5
Or, perhaps, he is misunderstanding his own work and the subconscious from which it is derived. The dissonance between the Cerebus comic and the Cerebus text pages is such that I can't help but be sure this is the case. Just found an interview with him today where he claimed he was always stoned when writing Cerebus. That might help to explain things a bit.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Nov 22, 2016 12:48:32 GMT -5
The introduction was written immediately upon completing the volume, I believe. When did the breakdown occur? Difficult to say, and of course many of his fans claim that he never had a breakdown at all and that his views are completly consistent over time.
The quadrology which follows 'Melmoth' sees the beginning of his peculiar analysis of feminism, curiously coinciding with a turn towards peurile sexual humour. 'Guys' and 'Going Home' continue the trend, leading to the final book which consists of little more than an anti-female Biblical exegesis (not helped by the fact that I don't personally care for the Three Stooges, who take up far too much of the book).
I disliked the flowery prose in Jaka's Story until I learned that they were actually written by Oscar, after which the style made perfect sense to me, and I now rather enjoy it with that perspective in mind.
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Post by shaxper on Nov 22, 2016 12:57:06 GMT -5
I disliked the flowery prose in Jaka's Story until I learned that they were actually written by Oscar, after which the style made perfect sense to me, and I now rather enjoy it with that perspective in mind. I've often wondered if he knew they were written by Oscar when he began the volume, though.
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Post by shaxper on Nov 23, 2016 11:58:24 GMT -5
Just read and reviewed Cerebus in Hell #0. Do yourself a favor and don't buy it.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Nov 23, 2016 12:36:42 GMT -5
I described Cerebus in Hell once as 'imagine if the Deadpool film had been directed by the post-funny Woody Allen.'
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Post by shaxper on Nov 27, 2016 20:46:58 GMT -5
Hey, this never occurred to me before, but if the entire point of the Cirinists is that motherhood is the highest of callings, going so far as to only allow women into positions of powers if they are already mothers, then who, exactly, is Cirin mother to? Do her kids ever get mentioned??
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 27, 2016 20:59:07 GMT -5
Hey, this never occurred to me before, but if the entire point of the Cirinists is that motherhood is the highest of callings, going so far as to only allow women into positions of powers if they are already mothers, then who, exactly, is Cirin mother to? Do her kids ever get mentioned?? Yes, Cirin's son is said to be Sir Gerrik, mentioned a few times here and there. I think he married Astoria and that she had a miscarriage. Can't recall where I read that, though. Edit It's mentioned here.
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